Virgin America provokes fare wars at LAX

[mvedepo]

This crap has gone on for ages. It will continue to go on for years from now.

I would be willing to work for a airline for less money if they treated its employees and costumers with respect. Hell, making a few dollars less but having a fun work enviroment is worth it.

Get over yourself.

Exactly!

lol So I guess these "morally righteous" guys will stay flight instructing because they would NEVER go to a regional and make poverty level wages right? Heck, CFI's make sub standard wages also. I guess that means that "morally righteous" people would never even get into the industry at all. Guess that says a lot about all of us.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

If by a "step up," you mean far lower pay, crappier work rules, and the scorn of the majority of the pilot profession...they yep, they really took a step "up."

Yeah, but they got a great deal on the Navy's old "Johnny Cash" uniforms.

So cool, with those InterGalactic Starship Commander insignia on the collars (which by the way, Dennis Kucinich endorsed at the last Star Trek and Fantasy Board Game Convention in Vegas before his campaign folded).

 

[HA25]

Guys- you're dumb if you think the ship sinks or swims on pilot pay. Southwest has been the highest for how long? And still profitable. They're profitable b/c they give a damn and actually try to make the company money-- If pilots have any stake in taking down a company- like UAL was accused of- it's b/c management doesn't keep their promises - therefore the summer of hell- and the leftover "F- you, United" mentality. We can save so much $$ if we cared to.

So i don't care what VA works for-= that's on them. And Joevollers has a point. Right now VA is fighting for their existence. So pay is low. USAir is profitable now- yet the bankruptcy contract is still in place??? Who's the bigger scum by your logic?

I will say though that you are forgetting Joe that you start over at year 1 scale when you upgrade at VA.

VERY well said... Skybus proved once and for all that pilot pay is not a factor.. fuel, business plan, and quality of management are the hinge point!

VA's pay is actually quite a bit better than most out there.. I can't think of a job that starts at $44/hr and goes to $95/hr after 1 year except UPS/Fedex and maybe WN?

 

[johnboy99]

VERY well said... Skybus proved once and for all that pilot pay is not a factor.. fuel, business plan, and quality of management are the hinge point!

VA's pay is actually quite a bit better than most out there.. I can't think of a job that starts at $44/hr and goes to $95/hr after 1 year except UPS/Fedex and maybe WN?

Straight up question and not trying to flame. Is upgrade still merit based, if so how can you say you go to $95 an hour year one. How long is the upgrade at VA and are you guys still getting airplanes besides the few Skybus dumped back to you??

 

[HA25]

Straight up question and not trying to flame. Is upgrade still merit based, if so how can you say you go to $95 an hour year one. How long is the upgrade at VA and are you guys still getting airplanes besides the few Skybus dumped back to you??

Fair questions..

Point blank for the system chief pilot (a really neat guy who came from USAir) at the interview... "We're hiring you all as Captain's to be type rated as PIC from the left seat" (I already am so I would do a pro-check).... "Upgrade is Strictly based on seniority, no matter what you hear or read on the blogs" and "we're making no promises, but we expect from 1 to 1.5 years"

This is all I can ask for in today's world.. and it's more than most are offering..

 

[HA25]

btw.. don't work for them.. just an aspirant..

As for deliveries, firm are 33, and plans are for 100 inside 4 years.

 

[ualdriver]

VERY well said... Skybus proved once and for all that pilot pay is not a factor.. fuel, business plan, and quality of management are the hinge point!

VA's pay is actually quite a bit better than most out there.. I can't think of a job that starts at $44/hr and goes to $95/hr after 1 year except UPS/Fedex and maybe WN?

No it doesn't prove that pilot pay is not a factor. Maybe that's how you rationalize it, but it doesn't prove that at all.

The bottom line is that VA's pilots are undercutting pilot pay in the industry, and VA will use the money they save on pilots' salaries to subsidize their bottom line. VA management will use the money saved to help support fare wars mentioned in the article at the beginning of the thread- fare wars that the industry DOES NOT NEED RIGHT NOW. VA management will use that money saved to "buy" market share by undercutting the rest of us who are paying their Airbus Captains $120-$130/hr + some sort of retirement (not that those rates are even adequate).

When our pilot labor contracts come up, my management will have a powerpoint presentation with little bars on a bar graph showing industry wide narrowbody pay for Captains and First Officers. VA's bars will be the short bars, and that will be the bar management's negotiators will refer to repeatedly in order to drive our A320 salary demands down.

God knows we don't need another 100 posts about who's driving who's wages down. Stop rationalizing VA's pathetically low pay rates and I won't post rebuttals.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

btw.. don't work for them.. just an aspirant..

As for deliveries, firm are 33, and plans are for 100 inside 4 years.

Skybus to Virgin America: Living the Dream.

 

[ableone]

"It's been awesome," said Brandon Brown, a San Francisco State University student whose family lives in Westchester and was flying down from San Francisco on a Virgin America flight. "Sometimes it's now cheaper for me to fly than drive."

This is the problem.

The public thinks it should be cheaper to fly than to drive and this perception is reinforced by companies who do not even try to make a profit.

This kind of "buying market share" crap needs to end.

Though I am not in favor of re-regulation a new entrant should be required to at least charge enough to cover costs.

Pumping in $100 mil at a time and operating at a loss to drive out the established competition should not be a legal business plan.

P.S. Virgin pilots are still welcome to walk away from my jumpseat.

 

[Fubijaakr]

P.S. Virgin pilots are still welcome to walk away from my jumpseat.

Amen, brother.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

No it doesn't prove that pilot pay is not a factor. Maybe that's how you rationalize it, but it doesn't prove that at all.

The bottom line is that VA's pilots are undercutting pilot pay in the industry, and VA will use the money they save on pilots' salaries to subsidize their bottom line. VA management will use the money saved to help support fare wars mentioned in the article at the beginning of the thread- fare wars that the industry DOES NOT NEED RIGHT NOW. VA management will use that money saved to "buy" market share by undercutting the rest of us who are paying their Airbus Captains $120-$130/hr + some sort of retirement (not that those rates are even adequate).

When our pilot labor contracts come up, my management will have a powerpoint presentation with little bars on a bar graph showing industry wide narrowbody pay for Captains and First Officers. VA's bars will be the short bars, and that will be the bar management's negotiators will refer to repeatedly in order to drive our A320 salary demands down.

God knows we don't need another 100 posts about who's driving who's wages down. Stop rationalizing VA's pathetically low pay rates and I won't post rebuttals.

Then why don't you counter with the little graph that shows the following:

Considering 150 PAX on a two hour flight:
$95/hr * 2 / 150= $1.26 per ticket
$130/hr * 2 / 150= $1.73 per ticket

So, my question is.....how much does it really subsidize anything? $0.47 per ticket? I realize there are other factors that might make the spread a little more, or a little less. But, $35/hr split really makes little, if any difference.

 

[redbook]

btw.. don't work for them.. just an aspirant..

As for deliveries, firm are 33, and plans are for 100 inside 4 years.

Are you kidding? After your recent experience, give it a rest with "firm" and "plans" for x number of airplane deliveries.

You seemed to wise up post Skybus and now you sniff VA and you are back to chugging industrial size Kool Aid.

 

[fly4surf]

Then why don't you counter with the little graph that shows the following:

Considering 150 PAX on a two hour flight:
$95/hr * 2 / 150= $1.26 per ticket
$130/hr * 2 / 150= $1.73 per ticket

So, my question is.....how much does it really subsidize anything? $0.47 per ticket? I realize there are other factors that might make the spread a little more, or a little less. But, $35/hr split really makes little, if any difference.

Exactly!

When I was a MD-80 FO and getting 50-60 CENTS per pax/HR I knew it had to be something else!

By the way....TSA charge is $7.50/pax.

Fight about something that matters.

 

[mvedepo]

No it doesn't prove that pilot pay is not a factor. Maybe that's how you rationalize it, but it doesn't prove that at all.

The bottom line is that VA's pilots are undercutting pilot pay in the industry, and VA will use the money they save on pilots' salaries to subsidize their bottom line. VA management will use the money saved to help support fare wars mentioned in the article at the beginning of the thread- fare wars that the industry DOES NOT NEED RIGHT NOW. VA management will use that money saved to "buy" market share by undercutting the rest of us who are paying their Airbus Captains $120-$130/hr + some sort of retirement (not that those rates are even adequate).

When our pilot labor contracts come up, my management will have a powerpoint presentation with little bars on a bar graph showing industry wide narrowbody pay for Captains and First Officers. VA's bars will be the short bars, and that will be the bar management's negotiators will refer to repeatedly in order to drive our A320 salary demands down.

God knows we don't need another 100 posts about who's driving who's wages down. Stop rationalizing VA's pathetically low pay rates and I won't post rebuttals.

Lets compare apples to apples:

Year 1 Captain Diff FO Diff
UAL N/A $32 -37%
VA $95 $44

Year 2
UAL N/A $50 -10%
VA $100 $55

Year 3
UAL N/A $73
VA $105 $60 -18%

Year 4
UAL N/A $78
VA $110 $65 -17%

Year 5
UAL $113 -3% $80
VA $115 $70 -12%

Year 6
UAL $125 $82
VA $120 -4% $75 -8%

After year 6 the difference in pay is nil. Now figure in the upgrade times. At United what are they? 10 years compared to 1 year at Virgin? So in 6 years I would be looking at a pay difference of more then $30 an hour at VA. Doesn't seem like we are killing the industry to me.

Heck with your argument I wonder how SWA feels for what you have done to the 737 pay scale. I bet they will get the "graph" pulled out for them also. And just so you don't have to look for it:


Year 6 Captain Diff FO Diff
SWA $185 $122
UAL $125 -32% $82 -50%

What's the saying?? "Those that live in glass houses..."

 

[ualdriver]

Lets compare apples to apples:

Year 1 Captain Diff FO Diff
UAL N/A $32 -37%
VA $95 $44

Year 2
UAL N/A $50 -10%
VA $100 $55

Year 3
UAL N/A $73
VA $105 $60 -18%

Year 4
UAL N/A $78
VA $110 $65 -17%

Year 5
UAL $113 -3% $80
VA $115 $70 -12%

Year 6
UAL $125 $82
VA $120 -4% $75 -8%

After year 6 the difference in pay is nil. Now figure in the upgrade times. At United what are they? 10 years compared to 1 year at Virgin? So in 6 years I would be looking at a pay difference of more then $30 an hour at VA. Doesn't seem like we are killing the industry to me.

You also forgot to add 16% to all of the UA rates for our B&C fund contributions. Also, if you want a real apples to apples comparison, make sure that you add MORE than 16% to the UA hourly rates because that's a PRETAX contribution. For a guy that's in a 25% marginal tax bracket, that's 21.3% added to his pre-tax hourly rate. Then redo the comparison. But then if you really, really want to do an apples to apples comparison, you would probably have to figure that the UA pilots' rate will be higher in 6 years, assuming we're still in business, which will make the disparity in pay even more glaring.

But anyway......... let me get this straight.......You're saying that 90/hr. Airbus Captains who go to 1st year Captain pay after their upgrade is GOOD for the industry? You think those Virgin 1 year upgrades are going to go on forever? When the upgrades DO slow, and a 6 year VA F/O goes to first year Captain pay, that's OK too? Are these your points? It's OK for an airline to pay 90 bucks an hour with no retirement for an Airbus Captain? You're defending that?


Heck with your argument I wonder how SWA feels for what you have done to the 737 pay scale. I bet they will get the "graph" pulled out for them also. And just so you don't have to look for it:

I guess they feel the same way we did when they massively were undercutting the rest of the industry in the 90's and early 00's. Perhaps your memory is short and selective, but it was just a few years ago when people LEFT SWA to come to airlines like UAL, DAL, NWA, etc., because the pay, retirement, and QOL didn't measure up. Don't act like the SWA guys actually did any heavy lifting to get the rates they have now. Everyone's else's rates just came down to JetBlue/Airtran/Frontier Year 2002i-ish rates.

What's the saying?? "Those that live in glass houses...

Yeah, you have plenty of criticism for the UA rates, but not the VA rates? Sounds a bit biased to me. And at all the legacies, a mechanism is in place to get rates up where they need to be. When that happens, pilots at airlines like VA will fall even further behind. But thankfully, that will allow them to undercut the industry even more, steal more market share, and keep those upgrades to 1st year Captain pay coming!!