Virgin America provokes fare wars at LAX

[Mamma]

can't speak for UAL, but know in the case of DAL and NWA, no..

So you are saying ALPA agreed to lower the wages at DAL and NWA and not a bankruptcy judge? I was under the assumption that DAL and NWA took advantage of bankruptcy laws on the eve of them expiring....to throw out the labor contracts. Once again, I could be wrong.

 

[HA25]

So you are saying ALPA agreed to lower the wages at DAL and NWA and not a bankruptcy judge? I was under the assumption that DAL and NWA took advantage of bankruptcy laws on the eve of them expiring....to throw out the labor contracts. Once again, I could be wrong.

My last month at SX, I flew with a 21 year DAL guy who told me the whole story.. in a nutshell ALPA national coerced thru fear the DALPA MEC to sell the company's contract (with no modification) to the membership... this wording also contained the simple language to terminate the pension plan. I am pretty sure the UAL contract was negotiated as well and the BK judge didn't force anything on anyone, but I didn't follow that as closely. I will call my friend at UAL tomorrow and get the truth on it.. Bottom line, VX came into existence post all of these cuts, and to expect for a small start up that isn't even making money to pay industry standard wages is a bit of a stretch of reality. Hate to say it, but the heavy lifting needs to be done by the heavy boys.. the 8000 and 10000 pilot work groups, not the 200..

I came from a 13000 pilot airline that did a darn good job holding it's own in the down turn, and to this day I still say APA has 10 times the union ALPA is.

 

[waveflyer]

Pilots are willing to fly for that b/c for so many- it is a step up. You're seeing the result of the unions across the industry looking out for only the senior- and selling out the young and junior and voiceless. If you looked out for the junior-didn't release your scope and have them fly your more fuel efficient dc9's/partial 73/ab replacement jets without even getting a seniority number- there wouldn't be all those RJ pilots for whom VA is a step up. You want to complain- do it to a mirror. Maybe you should have thought more long term, instead of selling out at every chance... If one of the major airlines had held the line on pay and risked their company going out of business you all could talk about what VA is working for. Until then- I don't get the whole lot of you.

I just wanted to say this again. As soon as UAL stops selling out it's smaller a/c = you can talk about what VA is doing to the industry. Mesa and skywest have had a MUCH larger affect on our pilot wages than VA has. Just do the math- VA= 250 pilots. "Regional" airlines- 32,000 pilots.... and YOU mainline pilots created that. Time for a mirror. I won't say VA rates aren't a problem- but you need to fix "regional" before you worry about what they're doing.

And I'll add til i'm blue in the face- that if we had a guild or some kind of system where you could change companies w/o such a monumental hit to your life then we'd have more leverage w/ startups... Until then- what? you're pissing on aloha and ATA guys?? What are they supposed to do- interview at united? Or maybe you think they should go to Mesa as you farm out more flying? You haven't even addressed the qol that a good positive culture provides.

I don't work for VA- but we all could benefit by looking at what we are doing to make wages at VA inviting.

By the way- i'd put up the charts and focus on what kind of productivity a pilot group can provide when promises are kept (ie: southwest)

 

[HA25]

waveflyer be very careful man, you're treading on the grounds of logic and reason, and that just won't fly at FI.com where we get to blame the 20 airplane start ups for the problems with or 80 year old 800 airplane airlines (2000 airplanes if you add in the "regionals").


and btw.. love the guild idea, been pushing that since my days at the "Commuters"... but ALPA missed that boat in the 40's. Just think, experience actually meaning something, what a concept! I could walk into an MD11 Captain's job if that ever happened!

 

[ualdriver]

I just wanted to say this again. As soon as UAL stops selling out it's smaller a/c = you can talk about what VA is doing to the industry. Mesa and skywest have had a MUCH larger affect on our pilot wages than VA has. Just do the math- VA= 250 pilots. "Regional" airlines- 32,000 pilots.... and YOU mainline pilots created that. Time for a mirror. I won't say VA rates aren't a problem- but you need to fix "regional" before you worry about what they're doing.

And I'll add til i'm blue in the face- that if we had a guild or some kind of system where you could change companies w/o such a monumental hit to your life then we'd have more leverage w/ startups... Until then- what? you're pissing on aloha and ATA guys?? What are they supposed to do- interview at united? Or maybe you think they should go to Mesa as you farm out more flying? You haven't even addressed the qol that a good positive culture provides.

I don't work for VA- but we all could benefit by looking at what we are doing to make wages at VA inviting.

By the way- i'd put up the charts and focus on what kind of productivity a pilot group can provide when promises are kept (ie: southwest)

If guys want to go work at VA for substandard wages- fine. It's a free country, right? My point is that if you choose to do so, don't come onto forums like this one and try to tell everyone, "Hey look, Skybus failed so now this proves that pilots flying mainline aircraft for substandard wages don't matter." It does matter. That's the point.

VA could be the next JetBlue, and I personally think a non-union JetBlue has been very detrimental to the piloting profession (A320 rates, E190 rates, trying to change FARs for duty times, etc.). And then here we go again with airlines like VA, with VA management totally taking advantage of their pilots. Do you think their VA management team is working for 1/2 to 2/3's the going rate for their management skills in order to "help their fledgling airline grow?" Probably not.

Like I said, I saw the movie in 2002. I don't like the ending. I don't care to watch that movie again.

And, for the record, I think I (we, the industry) need to fix scope AND worry about airlines like VA.

 

[HA25]

... Do you think their VA management team is working for 1/2 to 2/3's the going rate for their management skills in order to "help their fledgling airline grow?" Probably not.

I would love nothing more to compare David Cush's salary with that of Glen Tilton (the highest paid airline CEO in the US)..

I toured their HQ in Burlingame and the CEO sits in a glorified cubical and the SVP's and VPs all the same, right there next to the rest of the working stiffs,.. I'd be willing to bet you their salaries are far less than those equal positions at your airline.

I doubt whether the UAL Corp executive suite is as egalitarian either.

It's easy for you to rant about "us" guys that are lowering the bar while you're comfortable employed with what you view as the world's premier airline.. now try to imagine yourself on the street and with kids to feed and provide medical insurance for in TODAY's market.. where would you be looking for work if all you knew how to do well was fly?

Me personally, even when UAL was hiring, I had no desire to work for them.. they're yesterdays story and their corporate culture isn't conducive to a happy work force.. I want something different, and VX fits that.

 

[Speedtape]

How profound.

Clearly, he is one of those Embry-Riddle grads with a $100,000 + loans to pay off.

 

[ualdriver]

I would love nothing more to compare David Cush's salary with that of Glen Tilton (the highest paid airline CEO in the US)..

I toured their HQ in Burlingame and the CEO sits in a glorified cubical and the SVP's and VPs all the same, right there next to the rest of the working stiffs,.. I'd be willing to bet you their salaries are far less than those equal positions at your airline.

I'm not holding out our executive compensation as some sort of example. Our executives' compensation here at UAL is ridiculous. We have executive VP's making more than CEO's at other airlines.

I'm not sure if VA is required to notify the DOT of managment compensation as we do since it is a private company.

But again, you're missing the point. Considering that your executives are working and living in SFO, I suspect that their total compensation package is not as, ahem, "below market rates" as your pilots' wages are. I could be wrong. But I doubt it.


It's easy for you to rant about "us" guys that are lowering the bar while you're comfortable employed with what you view as the world's premier airline..

I'm not comfortably employed. United is not the world's premier airline.

now try to imagine yourself on the street and with kids to feed and provide medical insurance for in TODAY's market.. where would you be looking for work if all you knew how to do well was fly?

Try to imagine it? Are you kidding me? I "imagined" it 15 years ago when I started in ths profession. One of the first important things I discussed with my girlfriend at the time (now wife) was that this profession sucks and chances are I will be on the street and we need to always be financially prepared for that. I guess fortunately for me I realize that the airline profession is VERY volatile, and I have enough money set aside to go back to college and do something else while supporting the family. If VA wages/work rules/retirement (or lake thereof) was what I had to look forward to for the rest of my career, I'd be out of this profession in a heartbeat "looking for work" somewhere else.


Me personally, even when UAL was hiring, I had no desire to work for them.. they're yesterdays story and their corporate culture isn't conducive to a happy work force.. I want something different, and VX fits that.

To each is own. If the UA pilots willingly agreed to 90K Airbus Captain wages with our management team, we would have an EXCELLENT relationship as well. Our management team would LOVE US for agreeing to such a wage. I guarantee you our corporate culture would be 500% better the next day if we did that. They'd be high 5'ing us when we walked past each other in the hallways!

The JetBlue guys used to make that same statement you did back in the early 2000's. "Our corporate culture is excellent!!" they'd say. "What a great company it is to work for!!" Of course it is! The pilots were happy to work for little pay, no retirement, and no work rules and their management team was happy to allow them to work for little pay, no retirement, and no work rules. That makes for an EXCELLENT corporate culture.

But again, back to the main point. VA pilot compenation hurts the profession.

 

[Speedtape]

I would love nothing more to compare David Cush's salary with that of Glen Tilton (the highest paid airline CEO in the US)..

I toured their HQ in Burlingame and the CEO sits in a glorified cubical and the SVP's and VPs all the same, right there next to the rest of the working stiffs,.. I'd be willing to bet you their salaries are far less than those equal positions at your airline.

I'm not holding out our executive compensation as some sort of example. Our executives' compensation here at UAL is ridiculous. We have executive VP's making more than CEO's at other airlines.

I'm not sure if VA is required to notify the DOT of managment compensation as we do since it is a private company.

But again, you're missing the point. Considering that your executives are working and living in SFO, I suspect that their total compensation package is not as, ahem, "below market rates" as your pilots' wages are. I could be wrong. But I doubt it.


It's easy for you to rant about "us" guys that are lowering the bar while you're comfortable employed with what you view as the world's premier airline..

I'm not comfortably employed. United is not the world's premier airline.

now try to imagine yourself on the street and with kids to feed and provide medical insurance for in TODAY's market.. where would you be looking for work if all you knew how to do well was fly?

Try to imagine it? Are you kidding me? I "imagined" it 15 years ago when I started in ths profession. One of the first important things I discussed with my girlfriend at the time (now wife) was that this profession sucks and chances are I will be on the street and we need to always be financially prepared for that. I guess fortunately for me I realize that the airline profession is VERY volatile, and I have enough money set aside to go back to college and do something else while supporting the family. If VA wages/work rules/retirement (or lake thereof) was what I had to look forward to for the rest of my career, I'd be out of this profession in a heartbeat "looking for work" somewhere else.


Me personally, even when UAL was hiring, I had no desire to work for them.. they're yesterdays story and their corporate culture isn't conducive to a happy work force.. I want something different, and VX fits that.

To each is own. If the UA pilots willingly agreed to 90K Airbus Captain wages with our management team, we would have an EXCELLENT relationship as well. Our management team would LOVE US for agreeing to such a wage. I guarantee you our corporate culture would be 500% better the next day if we did that. They'd be high 5'ing us when we walked past each other in the hallways!

The JetBlue guys used to make that same statement you did back in the early 2000's. "Our corporate culture is excellent!!" they'd say. "What a great company it is to work for!!" Of course it is! The pilots were happy to work for little pay, no retirement, and no work rules and their management team was happy to allow them to work for little pay, no retirement, and no work rules. That makes for an EXCELLENT corporate culture.

But again, back to the main point. VA pilot compenation hurts the profession.

And life goes on!

 

[Falconjet]

Are you kidding me? A hair better?

Don't kid yourself about SWA. The ONLY reason they're able to keep their rates where they are is because of excellent managment of their fuel costs. Their management (or whoever does their hedging) is doing an outstanding job, and that's what's paying for their pilot, flight attendant, and mechanic contracts right now. Hopefully they will continue to be able to do so.

Sorry to interrupt the debate, but I just couldn't let this one pass.

I guess you feel that SWA's superior business model (ie point to point, high frequency, on time performance at very affordable prices), superior management (people running an airline like it is their family business, you know with a stake in its success rather than just a short term stock price gain, grab the bonus and run off to Tahiti mentality), reduced training costs due to a single fleet type, extremely motivated and mostly content workforce that takes pride in their company and their work ethic (among other things I'm sure I've left out) have nothing to do with SWA's success over the past 35 years?

There are many reasons why SWA is kicking everybody else's arse, those are just some of them. To continually point to hedges as the only reason SWA is successful is pretty simplistic and highly inaccurate.

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled betch-fest.

FJ

 

[ualdriver]

Sorry to interrupt the debate, but I just couldn't let this one pass.

I guess you feel that SWA's superior business model (ie point to point, high frequency, on time performance at very affordable prices), superior management (people running an airline like it is their family business, you know with a stake in its success rather than just a short term stock price gain, grab the bonus and run off to Tahiti mentality), reduced training costs due to a single fleet type, extremely motivated and mostly content workforce that takes pride in their company and their work ethic (among other things I'm sure I've left out) have nothing to do with SWA's success over the past 35 years?

There are many reasons why SWA is kicking everybody else's arse, those are just some of them. To continually point to hedges as the only reason SWA is successful is pretty simplistic and highly inaccurate.

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled betch-fest.

FJ

Actually, all of those statement are true, but if you examine Southwest's 10Q's/annual reports over the past, say 10 years, you'll notice two things that were their highest costs: fuel and labor. So it's true that all of those things you mention have an effect on SWA's low costs, but certainly their low labor costs (especially in the 90's and early 00's) and their fuel hedging/derivative strategy (more apparent in the past few years) have had a much greater effect. In fact, if you look on page B-22 of SWA's annual report for 2007, you'll see that fuel and labor account for about 63% of SWA's operating expenses. Everything else you mention is nice, but not the overriding factors to their success in my opinion.

 

[Falconjet]

Not to get into too big of a pizzing contest, but given that SWA's labor and fuel costs are so high, and they continue to make a profit, further proves my point that the other parts of their business model is what separates them from the rest of the industry and allows them to make money while the other guys bleed red.

SWA has higher labor costs and then other companies but lower fuel costs. OK, so they wash out maybe. The rest of their business model kick's everyone else's azz and they are too stupid to adapt.

Who is doing it right, the small, point to point airline with a single fleet type making money by flying between LBB and DAL for the past 35 years, or the rest of the industry losing billions each year by flying heavy metal across the pond and RJs everywhere else?

FJ

 

[ualdriver]

Not to get into too big of a pizzing contest, but given that SWA's labor and fuel costs are so high, and they continue to make a profit, further proves my point that the other parts of their business model is what separates them from the rest of the industry and allows them to make money while the other guys bleed red.

I disagree. I would attribute their rapid growth in the late 90's early 00's more to inexpensive labor than anything else, especially when compared to the legacies they were competing against. Remember that back in the good 'ole days, 737 Captains at United were making well over 200K, had a very nice pension, a B fund, and extremely cushy schedules. We legacy guys were VERY expensive labor. SWA guys had none of that and flew their arses off compared to us. And our flight attendants made better money. And our mechanics made better money, etc., etc. That's a huge cost advantage. Like I said, the other stuff you mentioned helps but not as much I don't think.

Now I would attribute their success to huge gains they've had with their hedges. In fact, those hedges are paying for their higher labor costs right now, and their management team knows that. If fuel stays flat or goes down (I have no clue what it will do), I think they're going to see some money losing quarters because the cash value of their hedging strategies will decrease in level or down markets.

 

[thruthemurk]

...I came from a 13000 pilot airline that did a darn good job holding it's own in the down turn, and to this day I still say APA has 10 times the union ALPA is.

In your assessment, make sure and include the original outsourcing of same banner flying to the regionals - probably the biggest single mistake a pilot union has made in the post deregulation era.

You might think that that biggest blunder honor goes to the originator of the B-scale; of course that disaster was contrived by Bob Crandall and bought hook line and sinker by the APA.

ALPA has made countless mistakes as well, including following the APA down both of these paths.

 

[xrated]

.. now try to imagine yourself on the street and with kids to feed and provide medical insurance for in TODAY's market.. where would you be looking for work if all you knew how to do well was fly?

People do what they have to do. It's a freakin joke when one pilot bitches to another saying they "have lowered the bar"! I know in the past FMS-Speed has done it, ualdriver has done it, and heck, I too have done it. (I admit as an America West pilot, I'm gulity of "lowering the bar" but in my deffence have never voted on a contract)

But at the end of the day, If you can look at youself in the mirror and are confident in the decisions you've made and are doing the best you can to provide for yourself and your family, why worry about what everyone else thinks? F@#$ them all. If you're out of work, try to get on with VA. If you work for UA and don't like what other airlines are doing...get over it, It's not up to you....If it was, you'd be management. And if you work for Southwest, I'm jealous and I HATE YOU!!!......Just kidding but that seems to be the theme!

One day this whole mess is going to work itself out...How? I have no clue, but rest assured, you're going to sleep in the bed you made.

 

[IB6 UB9]

If guys want to go work at VA for substandard wages- fine. It's a free country, right? My point is that if you choose to do so, don't come onto forums like this one and try to tell everyone, "Hey look, Skybus failed so now this proves that pilots flying mainline aircraft for substandard wages don't matter." It does matter. That's the point.

Thank goodness you continue to uphold the bar over there at UAL. I missed it btw, when they tried to gut your pay, contract, and work rules what day was it that you stood firm and didn't "accept substandard wages"?

 

[chppr5]

Did you notice what our payscales were before we had the bk gun put to our heads?? When JB, VA raises the bar on pay/work rules let us know will ya.........................

 

[waveflyer]

ual- you're completely committed to blaming other much much smaller companies than realizing that as a member of a 10,000 pilot work force you've had much more influence on VA wages than any pilot applying there.

Until you see how you (ALPA) (APA) and our whole system creates this environment, nothing will change. This is the only - and i mean ONLY- logical conclusion to a system in which United is largely responsible for. Of course the pay is bad- so ask yourself- why would any pilot CHOOSE that? As the most influential player in this business-= how has UAL helped to create it? Worry about things YOU control.
And I have never said the ship sinks or swims based on pilot pay- You have, however.

And no- UAL management would NOT be happy w/ you if you flew for $95/hour-(Christ, they already cut your pay in half and stole your pensions-- you still keep showing up to work at those wages- is anyone happier?) and the culture there certainly would not change. If you flew for a $1- they would be arguing to pay you 75cents and you and I both know it all too well.

 

[ultrarunner]

While I can be sympathetic to some of what JKE406 is saying, what most fail to realize is that once the 'compensation bar' has been lowered across the board, essentially industry wide, that actually becomes the new benchmark.

BK aside, it's amazing how quick an employee group will ratify a concessionary contract. And I think EVERYONE one would agree that NO concessionary contract has EVER resulted in preventing a BK filing or preventing a liquidation.

So working groups really needs to ask themselves if it's worth it. Since once you give it up, it is incredibly hard to EVER get it back.

As a result, the new compensation standard.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Did you notice what our payscales were before we had the bk gun put to our heads?? When JB, VA raises the bar on pay/work rules let us know will ya.........................

Yup...I noticed...I was on the seniority list. I also noticed that when it was time to come back the offer was $32/hr so I chose to stay put. Let me know when you raise the bar on pay/work rules and I might reconsider. With all your prattling on you failed to realize that your pay is actually lower than ours.