Virgin America provokes fare wars at LAX

[mvedepo]

I guess they feel the same way we did when they massively were undercutting the rest of the industry in the 90's and early 00's. Perhaps your memory is short and selective, but it was just a few years ago when people LEFT SWA to come to airlines like UAL, DAL, NWA, etc., because the pay, retirement, and QOL didn't measure up. Don't act like the SWA guys actually did any heavy lifting to get the rates they have now. Everyone's else's rates just came down to JetBlue/Airtran/Frontier Year 2002i-ish rates.

What's the saying?? "Those that live in glass houses...

Yeah, you have plenty of criticism for the UA rates, but not the VA rates? Sounds a bit biased to me. And at all the legacies, a mechanism is in place to get rates up where they need to be. When that happens, pilots at airlines like VA will fall even further behind. But thankfully, that will allow them to undercut the industry even more, steal more market share, and keep those upgrades to 1st year Captain pay coming!!

Well looks like things worked out pretty bad to SWA didn't it?

And as for criticism, YOU are the one came here and criticized VA's pay rates even though your very own "legacy" pay rate is only a hair better.

 

[ualdriver]

Then why don't you counter with the little graph that shows the following:

Considering 150 PAX on a two hour flight:
$95/hr * 2 / 150= $1.26 per ticket
$130/hr * 2 / 150= $1.73 per ticket

So, my question is.....how much does it really subsidize anything? $0.47 per ticket? I realize there are other factors that might make the spread a little more, or a little less. But, $35/hr split really makes little, if any difference.

You, too forgot the 16% B&C fund pre-tax contribution as well for a UA pilot. Plus, you're looking at it wrong. As I posted several months back (I think) you have to look at pilot costs for each airline. They're available at the BTS.gov website, I think Form 41.

Pilot costs do matter. Why? Because that cost is large enough to impact an airline's bottom line, especially at airlines that, in the BEST of years, may make NET margins of only a few percent. When an airline's total pilot costs are 1/2 of another's, that alone can take away, say, 1% of an airlines total NET profit. In a real company, not a big deal. At an airline, you may be taking away 33-50% of that airline's NET profit for the year if the more expensive airline has to match an airfare, all other costs being roughly equal. That becomes a problem.

And as pilot costs go, so do flight attendant costs. So do mechanic costs. So do CSR costs. So now you have an entire airline, like VA, with it's second largest cost only a fraction of what everyone else pays. That becomes a VERY LARGE advantage. It allows an airline like VA to undercut "legacy" fares and steal market share with employees subsidizing the difference.

So we wouldn't be able to "counter with a little graph" because you know what- they're right! And if more airlines like VA come along with their crappy wages and grow and undercut, guess what? It starts to look like 2000-2001 all over again as the rest of the industry scrambles to get their labor costs in line with the VA's and the Skybus' of the world. I saw that movie in 2002. I don't like the ending.

 

[ualdriver]

Well looks like things worked out pretty bad to SWA didn't it?

And as for criticism, YOU are the one came here and criticized VA's pay rates even though your very own "legacy" pay rate is only a hair better.

Are you kidding me? A hair better?

Don't kid yourself about SWA. The ONLY reason they're able to keep their rates where they are is because of excellent managment of their fuel costs. Their management (or whoever does their hedging) is doing an outstanding job, and that's what's paying for their pilot, flight attendant, and mechanic contracts right now. Hopefully they will continue to be able to do so.

 

[mvedepo]

Are you kidding me? A hair better?

Don't kid yourself about SWA. The ONLY reason they're able to keep their rates where they are is because of excellent managment of their fuel costs. Their management (or whoever does their hedging) is doing an outstanding job, and that's what's paying for their pilot, flight attendant, and mechanic contracts right now. Hopefully they will continue to be able to do so.

So let me get this straight. 10 years ago you hate SWA for undercutting UAL and taking away market share. But now they are a phenomenal company that you hope will continue to do well. Interesting.

 

[ualdriver]

So let me get this straight. 10 years ago you hate SWA for undercutting UAL and taking away market share. But now they are a phenomenal company that you hope will continue to do well. Interesting.

They are a phenomenal company. They're probably the best managed airline in the industry. What am I supposed to do, talk trash about them because I'm a UA pilot?

Whether they do well or not is not my concern. My hope is that they do well enough to keep average narrowbody wages up. We need an airline to be on the high side to "average up" wages that are on the very low side, like VA's pilot rates.

 

[HA25]

ualdriver, in the end it was ALPA that voted in those draconian cuts and not VA's pilots (most of whom were once ALPA members).. VA didn't set the president, UAL, DAL and NWA did.. so spare us the drama. Sure you're better paid, when VA has been around 80 years, and has billions in the bank, we should only hope they pay as well!

Go pick on Southwest, or even Jet Blue they're the reason we're all in a race to the bottom on wages in the first place, not the start ups that took hold during this post 9/11 wage wasteland.. and has absolutely nothing to do with what you're earning as a result of votes your union took 5 or more years ago!.. Their 200 pilots are a fart in the wind in terms of setting any kind of industry pay rates..

 

[mvedepo]

They are a phenomenal company. They're probably the best managed airline in the industry. What am I supposed to do, talk trash about them because I'm a UA pilot?

Let me refresh how you USED to feel about SWA:

I guess they feel the same way we did when they massively were undercutting the rest of the industry in the 90's and early 00's. Perhaps your memory is short and selective, but it was just a few years ago when people LEFT SWA to come to airlines like UAL, DAL, NWA, etc., because the pay, retirement, and QOL didn't measure up. Don't act like the SWA guys actually did any heavy lifting to get the rates they have now. Everyone's else's rates just came down to JetBlue/Airtran/Frontier Year 2002i-ish rates.

Well its good to know that we can be friends in 10 years or so! :beer:

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver, in the end it was ALPA that voted in those draconian cuts and not VA's pilots (most of whom were once ALPA members).. VA didn't set the president, UAL, DAL and NWA did.. so spare us the drama. Sure you're better paid, when VA has been around 80 years, and has billions in the bank, we should only hope they pay as well!!

I'm not saying that VA pilots set the original precedent. The point is that you stated several posts back that "Skybus proved once and for all that pilot pay is not a factor." That is simply not true.

I'm tired of guys like you and mvedepo making excuses for these crappy, non-union carriers and their PATHETIC wages. Don't post statements like the above and pretend that VA pilot wages/work rules don't hurt the industry. They do. You know it. I know it. Everyone on this forum knows it. And if you're going to throw rocks at UA wages, fine. The difference between us and outfits like VA is that we'll actually try to FIX our wages and workrules. You guys at non-union carriers will continue to fly for crappy wages and DO NOTHING about it except come onto forums such as these and say that Skybus/VA wages aren't a factor as if you're trying to rationalize your decision to work there or apply there. Can't make "waves" with management and ruin those quick upgrades, right? Give me a break.

 

[HA25]

I recall SX was about to vote in a union by an 80% margin.. so much for your theory about spineless...

There were clear problems at SX in senior management which lead to the fastest union vote in airline history for a start up.. maybe VA is doing a better job at taking care of their people. I've talked to quite a few of them, and they're not Mesa RJ guys either.. and all seem quite happy.

Unions have however not proven to be very effective at anything at ALPA... "trying" doesn't put food on the table.

Fly Safe..

 

[HA25]

duplicate..

 

[scottm]

ualdriver, in the end it was ALPA that voted in those draconian cuts and not VA's pilots (most of whom were once ALPA members).. VA didn't set the president, UAL, DAL and NWA did.. so spare us the drama. Sure you're better paid, when VA has been around 80 years, and has billions in the bank, we should only hope they pay as well!

Go pick on Southwest, or even Jet Blue they're the reason we're all in a race to the bottom on wages in the first place, not the start ups that took hold during this post 9/11 wage wasteland.. and has absolutely nothing to do with what you're earning as a result of votes your union took 5 or more years ago!.. Their 200 pilots are a fart in the wind in terms of setting any kind of industry pay rates..

You obviously have never set a PRECEDENT in educational standards. Then again, didn't you work for Skybus? Ya, why would now be a good time to have any standards. How are those lucrative stock options working out for you?

 

[HA25]

You obviously have never set a PRECEDENT in educational standards. Then again, didn't you work for Skybus? Ya, why would now be a good time to have any standards. How are those lucrative stock options working out for you?

when you can't win the argument on it's merit, resort to ad hominem attacks.. classic. Thanks for proving my argument sound.

 

[Mach 80]

Speaking of hidden income, what is everyone paying for health insurance for a family?

 

[Mamma]

ualdriver, in the end it was ALPA that voted in those draconian cuts and not VA's pilots (most of whom were once ALPA members).. VA didn't set the president, UAL, DAL and NWA did.. so spare us the drama. Sure you're better paid, when VA has been around 80 years, and has billions in the bank, we should only hope they pay as well!

Go pick on Southwest, or even Jet Blue they're the reason we're all in a race to the bottom on wages in the first place, not the start ups that took hold during this post 9/11 wage wasteland.. and has absolutely nothing to do with what you're earning as a result of votes your union took 5 or more years ago!.. Their 200 pilots are a fart in the wind in terms of setting any kind of industry pay rates..

I may be wrong and often am, but didn't a bankruptcy judge set United's payscales?

 

[HA25]

I may be wrong and often am, but didn't a bankruptcy judge set United's payscales?

can't speak for UAL, but know in the case of DAL and NWA, no..