Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[Secret Squirrel]

Oh yea, well our management at AT really cares for us, that has to be worth something.

 

[mvedepo]

I pasted the wrong lines above. Here is the corrected scale:

Captain F/O
Year VA ATran VA Atran
1 $95 $102 $44 $43
2 $100 $102 $55 $56
3 $105 $106 $60 $61
4 $110 $112 $65 $66
5 $115 $120 $70 $72
6 $120 $124 $75 $74
7 $125 $127 $80 $78
8 $130 $132 $85 $79
9 $135 $137 $90 $79
10 $140 $144 $95 $79

Regardless heres the avg:
An Airtran Captain would make an average of $2.90/hr more IF they upgraded within a year.

An Airtran FO makes makes and average of $3.30/hr less if the FO's remain FO's for 10 years.

You don't think these payscales are on par with each other?

 

[J3guy]

that's good info but, doesn't VA send you back to first year pay when you upgrade?? Also what do you have for a 401k match, a or b fund? not flaming here either.

 

[mvedepo]

that's good info but, doesn't VA send you back to first year pay when you upgrade?? Also what do you have for a 401k match, a or b fund? not flaming here either.

No you don't go back to 1st year pay. Your pay is based on longevity with the company. Right now the 401k is matched at 6%.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Oh yea, well does VA management fire employees who fight for their contract?

Do they treat you like the enemy instead of your biggest and best asset?

Do they fail at every turn and then blame the employees for managements mistakes?

Do they interpret your contract however it benefits them and then tell you to grieve it and drag the grievance process out for 4 years.

Do they threaten to fire your probationary employees to get minor concessions in your contract to save a couple retired eastern guys in the training department.

How dare you compare you substandard VA contract to ours because anything in our contract is really only a guideline subject to management interpretation.

 

[clickclickboom]

Virgin America hates you!

I have seen the uniforms


This may just be pissing in the wind considering VA's financial performance. In my opinion if VA had been able to begin operations 2 years earlier they could be a much healthier company. Unless a miracle happens VA is done regardless of the " Branson's ego/deep pockets argument"

 

[Fubijaakr]

Let's see. VA is 2 years old. So the highest paid Capt. at VA is making $100 an hour. And it will be another 4 years of undercutting everyone else before VA's wages are close to comparable.

Posting the "top pay" rate is disingenuous at best. The current "top pay" Capt. rate at VA is $100. All the rest are "prospective top pay" rates. They can be changed at any time upon the whim of VA management.

 

[mvedepo]

Let's see. VA is 2 years old. So the highest paid Capt. at VA is making $100 an hour. And it will be another 4 years of undercutting everyone else before VA's wages are close to comparable.

Posting the "top pay" rate is disingenuous at best. The current "top pay" Capt. rate at VA is $100. All the rest are "prospective top pay" rates. They can be changed at any time upon the whim of VA management.

3 yr capt pay is the highest right now. But your argument really makes no sense. So you are saying 1st year capt pay should be $140 - $150 so it will avg out with 8-10 yr Capts elsewhere?

You cannot use the 1st 4 years of Capt pay as a comparable figure. How many other airlines have a 1-4 year Capt? None. So saying that we are "undercutting" 12 year Capt pay with our 1-4 year Capt pay is absolutely ridiculous. You have to compare 1 to 1, 12 to 12, etc.

 

[vixin]

Our 4th year FO pay is around $118/hr. I made $108/hr as a 3rd year FO. Second year was making $98/hr. The conversion at APC is off by about $10 per hour. First year pay was around $59/hr without counting second year pay trips. Then it averaged about $67/hr. I know I know SWA isnt a start up airline. Neither is the VA brand. Glad to hear about the longevity thing though. Good luck to all.:beer:

Of course the above pay rates can differ. It depends on how productive you can make the system.

 

[Fubijaakr]

But you have no 12s. And your airline is "competing" with a bunch of 2s.

And that is undercutting the labor rates of the airlines with 12s.

Pure and simple.

 

[mvedepo]

But you have no 12s. And your airline is "competing" with a bunch of 2s.

And that is undercutting the labor rates of the airlines with 12s.

Pure and simple.

So if our 2 and 3 years employees are getting screwed and they make the same or more than YOUR 2 and 3 year employees what does that say about your company? Keeping it pure and simple.

Also let enlighten me. When YOU took your job at Alaska at 1st year pay. Were YOU screwing all the FO's at other airlines that made more then you???

 

[StaySeated]

I just don't get how anyone can attack another pilot group or another airline claiming that they individually are "undercutting" another labor group.

First of all, if you are at Alaska or Airtran or SWA or any organized labor group, VA rates should never enter the equation. If you are in negotiations and the company is trying to make a comparison between rates that have been negotiated and rates that have simply been "pen and inked" on a piece of paper and exist today but may not exist tomorrow, you need to put a stop to that tactic immediately. I am not speaking negatively about the VA guys or their "rates", but the fact of the matter is their pay can change at any time, either up or down, and therefor they can't be used in any legitimate cost comparison.

Organized pilot groups with CBA's in place that fly comparable equipment are the only ones that get entered into the spreadsheet.

Secondly, I know one pilot that "picked" his airline. By that I mean I know one guy that applied to only one airline because it was the only airline that he wanted to work at, and even he didn't get hired the first time around. Every other person I know in this industry over the past decade has "ended up" at one airline or another after a shot gun approach of applying everywhere, interviewing at a few, and ending up where they are today.

Are my friends at UAL or SWA better then me because they ended up at their current airline and I ended up at Frontier? (Actually they are all better then me, but if you take my sorry arse out of the equation you get my point). The VA guys were hired at VA. How the he11 are they undercutting anything? Never mind the fact that we are experiencing the worst economic conditions of our generation.

If you picked a specific airline and shunned every other airline because they were not worthy, then feel free to personally attack any and everyone else. However, if you participated in the same application process that the rest of us has done and applied at every airline on the planet and ended up at one that paid better then some, then please enjoy it while it last and shut your hole.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I just don't get how anyone can attack another pilot group or another airline claiming that they individually are "undercutting" another labor group.

You're right. You don't get it.

Frontier, JB, VA, AirTran, the other regionals -- we all suck.

Stop telling yourself that you make a good living, and ask yourself if you are being paid commensurate with your experience, education and responsibility.

Do doctors get paid less during economic downturns? Do you save more lives each year than the average doctor?

Didn't Frontier take a concessionary pay scale last year? Where do you think they got the floor for that?

 

[kwick]

But, can they change your pay to $50/hr tomorrow for a Captain?

The answer is YES, because you have no contract. That is the point!

Same as with JetBlue.

 

[StaySeated]

You're right. You don't get it.

Frontier, JB, VA, AirTran, the other regionals -- we all suck.

Stop telling yourself that you make a good living, and ask yourself if you are being paid commensurate with your experience, education and responsibility.

Do doctors get paid less during economic downturns? Do you save more lives each year than the average doctor?

Didn't Frontier take a concessionary pay scale last year? Where do you think they got the floor for that?

I totally agree, all of the above airlines suck with regard to pay and benefits.

I do not tell myself that I make a good living flying airplanes. I realized this to be a fact several years ago and started to ramp up Plan B. I don't know any airline pilot at any airline that believes that they are being paid their "worth". None.

I realize that it may be a fun exercise to compare our compensation levels to Doctors and Lawyers and other types of "important" people. Unfortunately, hospitals are non-for-profit entities. Even though airlines are run like non-for-profits most of the time, our employers actually depend on profits to survive. Before I continue down this road, it is important to point out that I understand and can prove that labor costs do not greatly impact profitability within a given airline. My only point here is that it is not possible to compare Doctors' compensation with Pilots' compensation, especially when you try and relate them both to economic cycles. Do people not get sick when the economy slows down? Do people stop traveling when the economy slows down? Do people stop traveling, while sick, when the economy slows down?

Any-who, yes Frontier did agree to a concessionary LOA last year. In fact we agreed to two different LOA's. Ironically, I know for a fact that JB and VA payscales were not on any sheet passed across the table. Our concessions were not based upon any other airlines' CASM.

 

[StarChecker]

But, can they change your pay to $50/hr tomorrow for a Captain?

The answer is YES, because you have no contract. That is the point!

Same as with JetBlue.

No, not the same. Our pay scales are written in our individual contracts.

It's the work rules that are not in our contracts that is concerning...but only to 646 of us...

 

[Mea25000]

Who cares VA is done... But don't worry there will be another start up to fill the void soon enough. I loved all the comments about how Alaska couldn't compete. It reminded me of the Iraqi minister on television. What are you guys drinking over there. Did you see your balance sheets? Have you seen ours? For that matter why would you try to start an airline out of SFO and then go after the two healthiest US carriers AS and WN yeah worked out great! Who knows it might have worked if the market and economy didn't tank and well there was oil.

 

[Splert]

So if our 2 and 3 years employees are getting screwed and they make the same or more than YOUR 2 and 3 year employees what does that say about your company? Keeping it pure and simple.

Also let enlighten me. When YOU took your job at Alaska at 1st year pay. Were YOU screwing all the FO's at other airlines that made more then you???

Question #1: What are VA's rigs and how do they compare to SWA and Alaska or the industry norm?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Unfortunately, hospitals are non-for-profit entities.

You sir, are wrong. Try google. Or Wiki. Start with "hospital".

 

[OurMoney1]

Anybody wanna take a guess on when VA will cease operations?

Yesterdays news reads that the US shareholders are out yet still on the board filling a seat. Alaska is claiming the board members have no fiduciary value to the airline and Virgin Group is in violation of ownership regulations.

Is anybody familiar with the enforcement code on this? How long does VA have to get investors to occupy those board seats? Is there performance required? How long can Branson play games searching for new investors to sit at the table?