Virgin America hangs as its hedge fund owners get antsy

[crxpilot]

You should probably mention that you work at Virgin......

A 28 airplane operation is probably not disaster for the entire industry. But it can trash yields in select city pairs that might otherwise have been profitable during times where every penny might count.

The problem is that Virgin America enters markets with labor subsidized low fares and trashes yields for everyone. Don't believe me? Google "virgin america fare wars" without the quotes. Take a look at the dates of the articles. Don't forget to scroll through all the pages because they go farther than just the first page that pops up.

After having looked at what came up when you did your Google search, do you think what Virgin America was/is doing is good or bad for the health of the industry? Do you think that is what the industry needed at the time or currently needs now? When you look at that list of articles that pop up on Google, do you think what you are reading is good for the pilots of the airlines that have to compete with those labor subsidized low fares..... or is it bad?

And that's just with the 28 airplanes you mention. How much longer does that Google list get with 50 airplanes? 100? 150 airplanes? Do you suggest we not learn from history? Should we not worry until you have 150 A320's?

Certainly you can understand the concerns many of us have about a rapidly growing airline that by every measure underpays their Airbus pilots and tends to undercut every market they enter in order to steal market share?

You mean like this?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9F05E6D81438F932A15756C0A967948260

or this:

http://gridskipper.com/57034/american-v-united-fare-war

or this:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/talk-story/235496-pssst-united-continental-fare-war-hawaii.html

or maybe this:

http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/NEWS...rthwest-classic-hub-fare-war-in-progress.aspx

Yup. It's definitely Virgin that's causing all those fare wars since the dawn of airlines!

 

[spinproof]

I find it amusing how a 28 airplane operation seems to spell disaster for the entire industry. Seriously. Do 280 pilots REALLY have that much power?

Mike sometimes its best to just go do your job and quit trying to justify your choice. If you're in the top 140 you'll be OK...maybe. If you're an FO, well I don't have a crystal ball but I believe your chances for upgrade are non-existant!

In my opinion a smart person would hedge their bets by applying to fly at places like China, Vietnam or Korea. Not that it is a great choice(unless you're single and no children) it's just one that will continue. Take a LOA till the US market stabilizes.

 

[mvedepo]

You should probably mention that you work at Virgin......

A 28 airplane operation is probably not disaster for the entire industry. But it can trash yields in select city pairs that might otherwise have been profitable during times where every penny might count.

The problem is that Virgin America enters markets with labor subsidized low fares and trashes yields for everyone. Don't believe me? Google "virgin america fare wars" without the quotes. Take a look at the dates of the articles. Don't forget to scroll through all the pages because they go farther than just the first page that pops up.

After having looked at what came up when you did your Google search, do you think what Virgin America was/is doing is good or bad for the health of the industry? Do you think that is what the industry needed at the time or currently needs now? When you look at that list of articles that pop up on Google, do you think what you are reading is good for the pilots of the airlines that have to compete with those labor subsidized low fares..... or is it bad?

And that's just with the 28 airplanes you mention. How much longer does that Google list get with 50 airplanes? 100? 150 airplanes? Do you suggest we not learn from history? Should we not worry until you have 150 A320's?

Certainly you can understand the concerns many of us have about a rapidly growing airline that by every measure underpays their Airbus pilots and tends to undercut every market they enter in order to steal market share?

Also Google United Airlines predatory pricing. That's worth the read as well.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Mike sometimes its best to just go do your job and quit trying to justify your choice. If you're in the top 140 you'll be OK...maybe. If you're an FO, well I don't have a crystal ball but I believe your chances for upgrade are non-existant!

In my opinion a smart person would hedge their bets by applying to fly at places like China, Vietnam or Korea. Not that it is a great choice(unless you're single and no children) it's just one that will continue. Take a LOA till the US market stabilizes.

I hear Viet Nam isn't working out so well for some. I wouldn't think going there is an option at all.

 

[ualdriver]

Also Google United Airlines predatory pricing. That's worth the read as well.

Do you understand what predatory pricing is as it applies to the airline industry? It's when a large carrier allegedly charges fares below their costs in order to drive out low cost competitors. Why do airlines risk participating in that type of activity? Because they know the damage an entrenched low cost carrier, like Virgin America, can do when they have 100 airplanes instead of 28.

In that frame, what is exactly is your point? That you are saving the industry from evil airlines like American, United, Delta, etc.? Gee, thanks mvedepo but we were all already "saved" by JetBlue, Airtran, Frontier, etc., the last time around. You saw how well that worked out.

crxpilot-

Thanks for posing some links where UAL was the victim of fare wars. And certainly you're not arguing that UAL and the other major airlines exist to massively undercut the competition on just about every route they fly using discount airline labor to subsidze their bottom line as Virgin America does?

And nowhere did I say Virgin America "invented" fare wars. I don't know if you've noticed the airline industry lately, but it seems that, at least for now, the industry has collectively come to its senses. It seems as if over the past couple of years the industry got some religion and decided that fare wars and irrational capacity growth are good for no one. Well, almost everyone got religion, as you saw by my Google example. Type in "united airlines fare wars" and then type in "Virgin America fare wars" without the quotes. Do you see my point?

Rather than going round and round with a group of VA pilots trying to rationalize their existence, I'll leave it at this: The industry doesn't need the damage VA is doing to the industry with low fares and trashy yields on the city pairs VA is flying and will be flying in the future. The piloting profession doesn't need yet another airline using discount airline pilots to subsidize its bottom line. I'm done.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Great posts, ualdriver. As one whose wages were lowered by the bankruptcy court to the level of the non-Union darling airline at the time, you are probably the most qualifed commentator on the topic.

And along comes Virgin and undercuts even THOSE wages.

$95 an hour for an Airbus Captain? Sickening.

 

[Max Powers]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/virgin_america.html


Paying this kind of money, I hope they tank. I will be there cheering and clapping as they pushback for the last time. It will be like a very happy funeral. I have ZERO respect for any VA guys and I will be glad to tell them that to there face.

Funny thats about what we make at AirTran......And we don't get hot stews. :-(

 

[spinproof]

I hear Viet Nam isn't working out so well for some. I wouldn't think going there is an option at all.

Why? Ha Noi is a lot friendlier than the last time I was there. Sure beats SF!

 

[Shrek]

I hear Viet Nam isn't working out so well for some. I wouldn't think going there is an option at all.

First I have heard of it.......source?

They treat you well.........pay you really well.......and as long as you adapt, as they say here - No Problem!

 

[metroplex]

can't believe that ALPA is with Alaska on this. I think that 90% of Virgins pilots are furloughed Alpa members. Turd move from ALPA again. Shows how useless they are. ALPA represented carriers can't keep pilots employed....ALPA anyway just caters towards the top 20% of the Airline population. Having been 11 years an ALPA member, I am dissapointed . I hope Branson gets more influence, American carriers are terribly run. Its time the Europeans come in and clean house.Year after year US carriers are losing money, even after they emerge from bankruptcy.old planes, sh$t service ( not the crews, they are great), for crying out loud the legacy carriers have the oldest fleets out there. Management never invests in anything, the only carrier that did is Southwest and they are doing well.