Virgin America cutting capacity during Winter, offering leaves

[HA25]

....Hawaiian merge is just a bad rumor.

God I hope so, although I would love to see a SFO base myself personally.

 

[Flyer1015]

Didn't HAL have a SFO and LAX base? Closed after 9/11?

 

[HA25]

Didn't HAL have a SFO and LAX base? Closed after 9/11?

yep... sure did.

 

[Mud]

It'll never happen. Apart from the obvious financial problems both sides love their brands way too much to ever give them up. On a side note, I was at sim a month or so ago and the engineers told me HAL was waffling on putting their sim in VA's Burlingame training building where a stall is waiting. I personally hope HAL doesn't back out, I'd like to bump into old friends from time to time.

 

[climbhappy]

what is this science experiment called "direct relationship" at Jet blue.....?

 

[blackbox]

It'll never happen. Apart from the obvious financial problems both sides love their brands way too much to ever give them up. On a side note, I was at sim a month or so ago and the engineers told me HAL was waffling on putting their sim in VA's Burlingame training building where a stall is waiting. I personally hope HAL doesn't back out, I'd like to bump into old friends from time to time.

That's not longer happening. It was discussed on the last pilot conf. call. Something about a sim not being available in time or something. And CAE might offer to build them a sim in Hawaii.

 

[Fins Up]

what is this science experiment called "direct relationship" at Jet blue.....?

A failed experiemnt. We have a Retirement & Insurance Committee that wasn't allowed to participate in coming up with our new crappy retirement plans *. What a great system we have.

* Apparently one member who was bound by an NDA was allowed to sit in and observe.

 

[Dan Roman]

That's not longer happening. It was discussed on the last pilot conf. call. Something about a sim not being available in time or something. And CAE might offer to build them a sim in Hawaii.

True statement, the sim will be located in Hawaii.
We are codesharing with VA though.

 

[Flyer1015]

A Hawaiian codeshare sounds excellent, considering VAs heavy presence in SFO, LAX, SAN. The ETOPs program is on hold, and so are the plans for Hawaiin flights.

 

[Beechnut]

Profitable 3rd and 4th is looking as good or better. Fix the first losses which is exactly what they are doing and this place will be heading in the right direction. There is PLENTY of money behind this place and we aren't going ANYWHERE!

"Virgin America also reported that its third-quarter net loss widened to $12.6 million from $3.3 million a year earlier."

Or not....

 

[Flyer1015]

"Virgin America also reported that its third-quarter net loss widened to $12.6 million from $3.3 million a year earlier."

Or not....

Operating profit was nearly 16 million. That's the airline's operations itself. Every quarter, they pay back investors. It was always listed as "other expenses" but now for the first time it's listed as "interest expense, net." In the profitable quarters, they pay back the investors a certain amount. For "other expenses" it's always been a shell game. The airline's profits were used to pay the investors back a small amount every time.

 

[ackattacker]

Operating profit was nearly 16 million. That's the airline's operations itself. Every quarter, they pay back investors. It was always listed as "other expenses" but now for the first time it's listed as "interest expense, net." In the profitable quarters, they pay back the investors a certain amount. For "other expenses" it's always been a shell game. The airline's profits were used to pay the investors back a small amount every time.

I don't think you understand the financial reports correctly, or you are blinded by wishful thinking.

You cannot pay back investors with money you don't have. Every dollar Virgin America has, every asset they own, every penny, is borrowed. There has never been a profit to speak of. The only way they can "pay back their investors" is by borrowing money from a different investor. "Interest Expense" is exactly what it sounds like... interest on their debt. "Other expenses" was also interest expense. They only changed the name. If you've been paying attention, you'll have noticed that the expense has gone up every single quarter they've been in existence. This is because their debt has gone up every single quarter and hence their service on the debt. If they were "paying back their investors" beyond the required interest payments, their debt would be going down, not up.

An "operating profit" will never, ever, pay off the debt. The debt will continue to grow. Only net profit can pay down the debt.

Imagine a scenario where I start a business... say a lemonade stand. I borrow $100 from my dad to build the stand, and pay him back $1 a day in interest. Every day I sell 3 lemonades for $.50 each, and each one costs me $.25. At the end of the day I've made an "operating profit" of $.75. After I pay back my dad his $1, I've lost $.25 each day. This is my net loss. Keep this up in the long term, and my total debt just keeps increasing (reverse compound interest). This is the position Virgin America is in now. If they want to make it long term, they need to do a lot better.

 

[redflyer65]

Imagine a scenario where I start a business... say a lemonade stand. I borrow $100 from my dad to build the stand, and pay him back $1 a day in interest. Every day I sell 3 lemonades for $.50 each, and each one costs me $.25. At the end of the day I've made an "operating profit" of $.75. After I pay back my dad his $1, I've lost $.25 each day. This is my net loss. Keep this up in the long term, and my total debt just keeps increasing (reverse compound interest). This is the position Virgin America is in now. If they want to make it long term, they need to do a lot better.

BINGO!

You can easily ride an 'operating profit' right into bankruptcy. Continued quarter losses are what matter....and cash on hand.

 

[clickclickboom]

Shut it down in the spring. Right when the other airlines gear up hiring with age 65.. You guys will be online before the kids go back to school and it will be the bigest favor anyone ever did for you.

Also dont waste your time with JB. You get sick or injured you will be bankrupt in 6 months..

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't think you understand the financial reports correctly, or you are blinded by wishful thinking.

You cannot pay back investors with money you don't have. Every dollar Virgin America has, every asset they own, every penny, is borrowed. There has never been a profit to speak of. The only way they can "pay back their investors" is by borrowing money from a different investor. "Interest Expense" is exactly what it sounds like... interest on their debt. "Other expenses" was also interest expense. They only changed the name. If you've been paying attention, you'll have noticed that the expense has gone up every single quarter they've been in existence. This is because their debt has gone up every single quarter and hence their service on the debt. If they were "paying back their investors" beyond the required interest payments, their debt would be going down, not up.

An "operating profit" will never, ever, pay off the debt. The debt will continue to grow. Only net profit can pay down the debt.

Imagine a scenario where I start a business... say a lemonade stand. I borrow $100 from my dad to build the stand, and pay him back $1 a day in interest. Every day I sell 3 lemonades for $.50 each, and each one costs me $.25. At the end of the day I've made an "operating profit" of $.75. After I pay back my dad his $1, I've lost $.25 each day. This is my net loss. Keep this up in the long term, and my total debt just keeps increasing (reverse compound interest). This is the position Virgin America is in now. If they want to make it long term, they need to do a lot better.

I'm amazed you are smart enough to write that but can't figure out that what "binding" really means.

Consider this scenario, the operating income was $15.8 million and the interest expense to investors was $28.45 million, for a "net" loss of $12.6 million. Since money can't be produced out of thin air, if your profit can't pay the investors off for the interest on the debt, then it must come out of your cash on hand. At the end of quarter 2, there was 82 million and now at the end of quarter 3, the cash on hand is 75 million. That's a 7 million reduction, but "somehow" paid the investors 12.6 million. It's a shell game, I think there's a lot more going on behind the scenes.

 

[LoveGun]

Imagine a scenario where I start a business... say a lemonade stand. I borrow $100 from my dad to build the stand, and pay him back $1 a day in interest. Every day I sell 3 lemonades for $.50 each, and each one costs me $.25. At the end of the day I've made an "operating profit" of $.75. After I pay back my dad his $1, I've lost $.25 each day. This is my net loss. Keep this up in the long term, and my total debt just keeps increasing (reverse compound interest). This is the position Virgin America is in now. If they want to make it long term, they need to do a lot better.

More accurately stated.... Imagine a scenario where you have 100 dollars in your pocket and you use it to start a lemon aid stand. You set up the lenomaid stand as an LLC and pay yourself an exorbitant Interest rate on the 100 dollars the lenomaid stand borrowed. The lemonaid stand is profitable when you account for only the price of water, sugar and lemons, but when you figure in the cost of the interest you are paying to yourself, the lemonaid stand is no longer profitable. That's OK because the lemonaid stand now doesn't pay any corporate income tax. All the proceeds are taxed at the much lower capital gains tax rate. You can also tell the employees of your lemonaid stand that you are too poor to pay them industry standard wages because no one has enough attention span to understand your voodoo accounting practices. Years later during an economic boom cycle you IPO the lemonaid stand and sell it to wall street investors for $300.

 

[Mr.B]

yep... sure did.

Hey....when are you guys opening your windoww again?

 

[jonjuan]

More accurately stated.... Imagine a scenario where you have 100 dollars in your pocket and you use it to start a lemon aid stand. You set up the lenomaid stand as an LLC and pay yourself an exorbitant Interest rate on the 100 dollars the lenomaid stand borrowed. The lemonaid stand is profitable when you account for only the price of water, sugar and lemons, but when you figure in the cost of the interest you are paying to yourself, the lemonaid stand is no longer profitable. That's OK because the lemonaid stand now doesn't pay any corporate income tax. All the proceeds are taxed at the much lower capital gains tax rate. You can also tell the employees of your lemonaid stand that you are too poor to pay them industry standard wages because no one has enough attention span to understand your voodoo accounting practices. Years later during an economic boom cycle you IPO the lemonaid stand and sell it to wall street investors for $300.

Or you hire a lenomaid drinking employee to spin your company's survival on a public message board in an effort to appease those who are thinking about leaving because "the sun will come put tomorrow.". Heck, just look at how much $$$ was raised in past ipo's, to include toiletbrush.com. People dumping money into ipo's won't care if it's an airline, they'll just know they'll make Meeelions.

 

[Splert]

More accurately stated.... Imagine a scenario where you have 100 dollars in your pocket and you use it to start a lemon aid stand. You set up the lenomaid stand as an LLC and pay yourself an exorbitant Interest rate on the 100 dollars the lenomaid stand borrowed. The lemonaid stand is profitable when you account for only the price of water, sugar and lemons, but when you figure in the cost of the interest you are paying to yourself, the lemonaid stand is no longer profitable. That's OK because the lemonaid stand now doesn't pay any corporate income tax. All the proceeds are taxed at the much lower capital gains tax rate. You can also tell the employees of your lemonaid stand that you are too poor to pay them industry standard wages because no one has enough attention span to understand your voodoo accounting practices. Years later during an economic boom cycle you IPO the lemonaid stand and sell it to wall street investors for $300.

Someone is snorting the lemonade.

VA owes interest to a hedge fund whose clients want their ROI into the hedge fund NOT VA.

Are you 12 years old?

 

[Chairman]

Splert we can go all the way back to SKYW days of when you have been wrong. Who owns the lease to the airplanes.....Many of the same investors....Who buys the airplanes and then sells them to the investors.....Lots of fuzzy math to keep cash coming and investors happy.