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USAPA's Real Motivation

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Green

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Posts
1,108
USAPA likes to talk about honor and integrity. The reality is that they are eager to sell out the profession in order to circumvent binding arbitration. They are willing to give $688 MILLION in CONCESSIONS if Doug will agree to RE-ORDER the seniority list!!!!! YGBFKM!!!! We are trying to restore the profession yet the east pilots are willing to sell us all out in order to steal AWA seniority. They aren't scabs but they're about as close as you can possibly get. Maybe we should call them sores. This is not democracy prevailing, this is the majority abusing the minority. You WON'T get away with it.




Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likely” Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart. Our plan to protect your career has now shifted from completely overturning the award, to an approach which would essentially make an end-run around the list. This list will still be out there, however our intention is to make it very hard to ever implement it. This is an approach which really is “highly, highly likely.”

Some of you may be questioning our change in focus with respect to the Nicolau award. We have had a titanic shift in thinking with regard to our herculean effort to get you the protections you are rightly justified in having concerns. Let me take the time to explain our plan moving forward.

Once we become the bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots, we will take over contract negotiations. As we have reported to you (and supported by past court cases) your seniority does not “belong” to you. Rakestraw v. United demonstrated this (see PHL Roadshow videos). Seniority is a negotiable item, and is only good until the next barganing cycle. ALPA has set this legal precedent itself. In the United case ALPA paid United $200 million to correct the seniority of the pilots that honored the picket lines. Moving the 539 scabs behind the 570 pilots that honored the strike set the standard for the cost associated with renegotiating seniority. $200million divided by 539 pilots comes out to approximately $371,058 per pilot. With approximately 1800 America West pilots, we’ll need about $668 Million to re-order the seniority list. While this may seem like an unrealistic amount of money, please realize that you won’t have to pay for ANY of it.

Doug Parker has shown time and time again that this merger was simply about finances. Well, two can play at that game. You may recall his cost-neutral stance when his negotiators were last at the barganing table. Our plan is simple: give Doug what he wants, and we get what we want. A cost neutral contract will easily save the company $668 million. All that we ask for in return is to order the seniority list on a date of hire basis, with reasonable adjustments made for time of service. True, this will cause SOME reordering of our own seniority list, but I think we can all agree that those of us that loose a little will benefit from the fact that most of us will gain 1800 numbers of furlough protection.

To close out this post, and to further demostrate to you how different USAPA is from ALPA I want to share with you several court summaries that we received from one of our pilot volunteers. I think they demostrate that we really pay attention to input from our pilot group, that we are not so set in our ways that we can’t change direction, and that we truly are a transparent union. Some of the language is not at polished as we strive for in our communications, but I wanted you to see the unfiltered emotion which drives our great movement. When reading these summaries ask yourself this question: “Would ALPA allow information that is critical of itself to be widely distributed?” I think we all know the answer to that question, and that is why we were able to submit over 3000 cards to the NMB. Remember: USAPA is about giving US Airways pilots the right to make a choice!
 
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Their motivation is similar to that of the barnyard dog that pi$$es on the hay just so that the cows can't eat it. I feel bad for all the good folks there who have gotten sucked into a vortex created by a few lunatics with way too much leverage.
 
So USAPA LIED to the pilot of USAIR/AWA. Not surprising. And USAPA is expected to really treat the pilots of USAir/AWA fairly? This LEGAL REVIEW should have been done from the start. (or was it done and you ignored it?)This is exactly what ALPA and many legal analysit have said all along! Either your lawyers were idots or the leadership of USAPA is self centered, biased and not for the welfare of the whole pilot group.

You promised to take care of the AWA pilots as well as the USAir pilots. Well, it seems you are willing to sell the AWA pilots down the river to get what you want. It is obvious that the USAPA and those in it and who support it cannot be trusted. It is sad to see pilots acting like management.

Just my opinion.....

FNG
 
Looks like the USAPA guys are sandbagging.... but still insisting on success.... just give us a chance (and 668MM)!!

highly, highly (un)likely.......
 
hate to say i told you so-=

but i've been railing on the reality of this for a while. It's not about anyone's definition of "fair" - it's about the reality of what IS right now- and the FACT that we all pattern bargain- just the delay has cost our profession millions... Step up USAir- regain your place at the dinner table.... This seniority list is at it's greatest a small bump in the road for you.
 
USAPA likes to talk about honor and integrity.

"Integrity" would be putting a return address on the ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee propaganda they send me.

"Integrity" would be for the ACPC to reveal where they got my address from.

"Integrity" would be for the ACPC to sign the letters they send.

"Integrity" would be for the lacky to sign the supposed letter that you are posting. That is a ridiculous misinformation campaign letter floating up from the sewer.

It truly amazes me that ALPA's only response to the USAPA grass roots drive is to redouble their efforts of doing the exact thing that is the very cause for their opposition's motivation.

If there ever where a proof that a leopard cant' change its spots...but it can run twice as fast when it is scared.
 
Turtle: excellent refutation of all the accusations against USAPA. I'm sure they're proud of your strong defensive points.
 
"Integrity" is Standing by your word and honoring signed contracts. Time to grow up Turtle and act like a big boy/girl. Throwing the temper tantrum of the century and trying to weasel your way out of binding arbitration does not say "Integrity."
 
Turtle: excellent refutation of all the accusations against USAPA. I'm sure they're proud of your strong defensive points.


Far be it from me to defend USAPA. They will stand or fall on the basis of what they do, just like ALPA.

Vote for who you want, then grab a brew and celebrate reality.:beer:
 
"Integrity" is Standing by your word and honoring signed contracts. Time to grow up Turtle and act like a big boy/girl. Throwing the temper tantrum of the century and trying to weasel your way out of binding arbitration does not say "Integrity."


NMB... Its all just a process. Think of it that way and it makes it all easier.:0
 
Where did that post come from? Was it from usapa or just from some message board poster somewhere with a bright idea?
 
Where did that post come from? Was it from usapa or just from some message board poster somewhere with a bright idea?

If it were from USAPA then it would be obvious. They don't put stuff out anonymously, neither did they ever say or promise many of the ridiculous claims in the anonymous post above.

But don't take my word for it. Write to them and ask them. They would be happy to take credit for anything they have said and they also would be happy to dispel any false rumors. Most of the misinformation being floated is obvious like this letter, so you won't find USAPA chasing ever little fireball thrown out into the crowd. Even so, if you write and ask them they will be happy to respond to a serious question.

[email protected]
 
All of you now know a vote is coming. Best of luck to whichever side wins the upcoming election.

Let us know how you decide to vote...
 
ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....
 
ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....

I don't get it: what could ALPA have done to "deel" with the "problem".

The way I understand it, there are no legal grounds to fight the award.
 
I don't get it: what could ALPA have done to "deel" with the "problem".

The way I understand it, there are no legal grounds to fight the award.

Not fight the award.....deel with seniority differently....We have made seniority so important and so non-transferable, that it doesn't matter who represents a pilot group, ALPA or USAPA, we will fight for our seniority....

No other profession is hampered as much by seniority as we are.....It prevents any peaceful combination......Look at the past mergers.....They are all ugly.....
 
Not fight the award.....deel with seniority differently....

amazing Joe.... where do you come up with such brilliance....


What about this... Joe....


HOW to deal with sen differently...

HOW Joe HOW.....







HOW!
 
amazing Joe.... where do you come up with such brilliance....


What about this... Joe....


HOW to deal with sen differently...

HOW Joe HOW.....







HOW!

I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....
 
I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....

Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....
 
Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......
 
Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Here you go again.... you got great ideas... its just those damm roadblocker in Herndon....

How'd I know that you'd start the blame game...

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

Riiiiight.... you got value baby... bang for your buck...

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....
 
No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....

The problems that ALPA are facing can't wait for "painfully slow and frustrating" solutions....if that is the best you Herndon lapdogs can do....then you will be replaced......

Like the Social Security and Medicare problems.....these problems will get worse and the solutions will get more painfull and costly the longer the politicians fiddle.....

Big problems require leaders.....not politicians.....I see lots of politicians.....
 
Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......
But how is this the fault of Alpa national. If your pilot group would like a single payscale for aircraft and longevity pay, then why doesn't your pilot group make that known to your MEC and make it a point of emphasis during contract negotiations? What is missing here is that we as union members are responsible for the leaders we vote into office. Our leaders have a responsibility to represent the pilots of THEIR company. If they don't, we as pilots have a responsibility to remove them. The question remains, who chose to go to binding arbitration? Did Alpa national decide this or did the USAir MEC decide this and why? Regardless of emotions, was a legal verdict decided and are there grounds for it to be legally challenged?
 
ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....

God, I hate to say i agree with this guy on anything-- but he has it nailed... too bad he's the one saying it- it should have more credibility than that.

It's about LEVERAGE. Why have a NATIONAL union if there is NO NATIONAL PLAN to increase leverage nationwide? If every carrier can do whatever they want- and we have a system that marries us to each carrier so it damn well better be that way- then explain why have a national union at all? This is central to the uSAPa argument.

Management uses our seniority against us... what's the solution? Like i said- i hate it- but Joe's right- keep ignoring it and USAPA's just the first to bail.
 
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Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...
 
Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...


Are you suggesting that ALPA might float a turd to get votes?:eek:

Dear sir, name just one instance where ALPA ever floated fear, uncertainty, or doubt to manipulate the membership to the benefit of the national leader's salary. Just one. I dare you...:blush:
 
Looks like the USAPA guys are sandbagging.... but still insisting on success.... just give us a chance (and 668MM)!!

highly, highly (un)likely.......


Rez,

You mean to tell me you fell for Green's little game of MSU (Make $hit Up)?

That is not a USAPA letter. It's pure fiction, and rather poorly done for the most part. Anyone who knows what's really going on at USAPA can see this.

But I won't confuse any of you die hard ALPA supporters with the facts.....it will only upset your stay-the-course mentality.
 
i did not write that. I just copied and pasted from the Alpa web board where it was listed as a letter from usapa. You say it's a fake? Are those not USAPA's intentions? Do whatever it takes to get doug parker to buy off on re-ordering the seniority list?

I concede that the letter likely isn't legit but the intentions behind it are alive and well at USAPA HQ. Just come out and admit it guys. USAPA fully intends to use all their resources to screw AWA pilots. You plan on stealing our seniority and have zero intention of honoring the process you signed up for. All very honorable positions for such an experienced group. You should be proud....
 

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