USAPA's Real Motivation

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....

Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Here you go again.... you got great ideas... its just those damm roadblocker in Herndon....

How'd I know that you'd start the blame game...

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

Riiiiight.... you got value baby... bang for your buck...

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....

 

[JoeMerchant]

No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....

The problems that ALPA are facing can't wait for "painfully slow and frustrating" solutions....if that is the best you Herndon lapdogs can do....then you will be replaced......

Like the Social Security and Medicare problems.....these problems will get worse and the solutions will get more painfull and costly the longer the politicians fiddle.....

Big problems require leaders.....not politicians.....I see lots of politicians.....

 

[Eagle757shark]

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

But how is this the fault of Alpa national. If your pilot group would like a single payscale for aircraft and longevity pay, then why doesn't your pilot group make that known to your MEC and make it a point of emphasis during contract negotiations? What is missing here is that we as union members are responsible for the leaders we vote into office. Our leaders have a responsibility to represent the pilots of THEIR company. If they don't, we as pilots have a responsibility to remove them. The question remains, who chose to go to binding arbitration? Did Alpa national decide this or did the USAir MEC decide this and why? Regardless of emotions, was a legal verdict decided and are there grounds for it to be legally challenged?

 

[waveflyer]

ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....

God, I hate to say i agree with this guy on anything-- but he has it nailed... too bad he's the one saying it- it should have more credibility than that.

It's about LEVERAGE. Why have a NATIONAL union if there is NO NATIONAL PLAN to increase leverage nationwide? If every carrier can do whatever they want- and we have a system that marries us to each carrier so it damn well better be that way- then explain why have a national union at all? This is central to the uSAPa argument.

Management uses our seniority against us... what's the solution? Like i said- i hate it- but Joe's right- keep ignoring it and USAPA's just the first to bail.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...

 

[Turtle21]

Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...

Are you suggesting that ALPA might float a turd to get votes?

Dear sir, name just one instance where ALPA ever floated fear, uncertainty, or doubt to manipulate the membership to the benefit of the national leader's salary. Just one. I dare you...:blush:

 

[BeCareful!]

Looks like the USAPA guys are sandbagging.... but still insisting on success.... just give us a chance (and 668MM)!!

highly, highly (un)likely.......

Rez,

You mean to tell me you fell for Green's little game of MSU (Make $hit Up)?

That is not a USAPA letter. It's pure fiction, and rather poorly done for the most part. Anyone who knows what's really going on at USAPA can see this.

But I won't confuse any of you die hard ALPA supporters with the facts.....it will only upset your stay-the-course mentality.

 

[Green]

i did not write that. I just copied and pasted from the Alpa web board where it was listed as a letter from usapa. You say it's a fake? Are those not USAPA's intentions? Do whatever it takes to get doug parker to buy off on re-ordering the seniority list?

I concede that the letter likely isn't legit but the intentions behind it are alive and well at USAPA HQ. Just come out and admit it guys. USAPA fully intends to use all their resources to screw AWA pilots. You plan on stealing our seniority and have zero intention of honoring the process you signed up for. All very honorable positions for such an experienced group. You should be proud....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problems that ALPA are facing can't wait for "painfully slow and frustrating" solutions....if that is the best you Herndon lapdogs can do....then you will be replaced......

Like the Social Security and Medicare problems.....these problems will get worse and the solutions will get more painfull and costly the longer the politicians fiddle.....

Big problems require leaders.....not politicians.....I see lots of politicians.....

BINGO!!!


So really ALPA is no different than say..... our own democractic gov't..... which is built on our founding fathers democratic ways....

Sure Joe big..problems....but you have no pragmatic plan to inplement!! So quit making others responsible for what you can't even do....

I realize its tough..but stick with it...don't be a quitter...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

God, I hate to say i agree with this guy on anything-- but he has it nailed... too bad he's the one saying it- it should have more credibility than that.

Its not that JM has bad ideas.... he just doesn't have the character to implement ideas. If he had something you wanted after 5 mins with the guy you wouldnt want it because he is such a tool....

It's about LEVERAGE. Why have a NATIONAL union if there is NO NATIONAL PLAN to increase leverage nationwide? If every carrier can do whatever they want- and we have a system that marries us to each carrier so it damn well better be that way- then explain why have a national union at all? This is central to the uSAPa argument.

Keep in mind that each carrier and each pilot group is very unique.... currently with seperate MECs that allows the uniqueness of each pilot group to be addressed.

What you are saying is that each MEC needs to conform more with a National plan. agreed... but that conformation is double edged. I am not saying its the wrong way to go... but it comes with pros and cons.. it definetly comes with changes!! People don't like change... Change only occurs when the perception of change is better than the status quo...

The seniority system that marries us to each carrier is what it is... IT can be better... but again... if you want portable seniority.. then you are going to screw another pilot somewhere else when you move to another carrier.

Plus..the big kicker... pay. If you take your seniority with you .. I assume you want to stay at your payscale or get the better pay? And what pay scale is that? Say you leave Atlas flying B747s as CA to UAL. Do you go directly to a UAL B747? As a CA? Do you stay at Atlas pay or move up to UAL pay? Or will there be a new National Seniority pay scale?

Finally... how... the big pain in the arse...HOW... how do we get management to sign up for this? Why would management first off.. instantly employ a pilot from another carrier.... no interview, etc... and why would they pay that pilot anything other than first year pay. Is s/he on probation?

Management uses our seniority against us... what's the solution? Like i said- i hate it- but Joe's right- keep ignoring it and USAPA's just the first to bail.

Don't worry about agreeing with Joe... its not like these are his great ideas....

The issue is this... the true professionals and custodians of the profession aren't going to quit.

The CAL pilots are going to March on Wall Street. Wall Street and K Street in WashDC are the two places that control us.....

If we can't even take the time to march with the CAL pilots then how are we going to fix the seniority issues?

We want to play big leagues. We want big time results... but we don't seem to want to step out of the stands and play ball......

On of the reason MLKjr and Ghandi were successful is because people showed up for thier demonstrations....

 

[SaturnPilot]

I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....

I will start out saying this is my best guess, but I don't think the staffers in ALPA's Economic & Financial Analysis department have not studied this method to determine which is better. Mergers aside, I'm guessing we probably have to opportunity to make more money with different rates.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

SIZE generates revenue! So a 727 crew flying 20,000lbs of trash from CVG to MEM should make the same coin as an MD-11 crew coming from CDG with 100,000lbs of trash...naaa!

 

[Turtle21]

...
On of the reason MLKjr and Ghandi were successful is because people showed up for thier demonstrations....

Well then Prater was almost a resounding success...

He may had more pilots come visit him at Herndon than any president before him... his only mistake was that he forgot to tell all the secretaries to leave their BMW 7 series and Mercedes at home.:laugh:

 

[SaturnPilot]

his only mistake was that he forgot to tell all the secretaries to leave their BMW 7 series and Mercedes at home.:laugh:

anybody who thinks that secretaries at National make that much money is dilusional. The figures posted on certain websites include not only their salary, but any expense reimbursment, etc. I know of one communications staffer who has been working at ALPA over 4 years and handles communications for numerous airlines, yet doesn't even make $40,000 (living in the DC area, mind you!)...yet the websites claim she's up in the 70's.

It would take 5 minutes of your time and one phone call to clear up this, and your other NUMEROUS misconceptions about what your union actually does, but unfortunately USAPA supporters would rather remain ignorant and simply vote how somebody tells them to vote.

Thanks for keeping your wages below regional pilots for even longer so that the rest of us can benefit from your "competitiveness"

 

[Redmeat]

i did not write that. I just copied and pasted from the Alpa web board where it was listed as a letter from usapa............


............
I concede that the letter likely isn't legit ....

If I were an ALPA supporter I would refrain from posting obvious garbage like this letter and also refrain from informing people you got it off an ALPA web board.

How did your thread motivate me?

+1 for the USAPA camp. That's how. And I'm not at US or HP.

It's over one way or another. It's going up for vote.

Leave it alone, you're embarrassing yourself and ALPA.

 

[Turtle21]

USAPA likes to talk about honor and integrity. The reality is that they are eager to sell out the profession .....

Green, the following is an update from USAPA, commenting on the falsified letter you posted at the beginning of this thread. You could say it is a discussion of honor and itegrity....

Fellow pilot,We've been talking at length about the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) being sewn by those afraid of the truth. We ran across something that was so wild, and demonstrated so perfectly what we, and you, the line pilot looking for the truth, are up against, that we felt compelled to print it. This, if you can believe it, was written by a fellow pilot of yours - we hope you are as embarrassed as we are.

NOTE: JUST SO EVERYONE'S CLEAR
THE FOLLOWING WAS NOT WRITTEN BY, NOR EXPRESSES THE OPINIONS OF, ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH USAPA:
________________________________________________________________


​

USAPA's Real Motivation
USAPA likes to talk about honor and integrity. The reality is that they are eager to sell out the profession in order to circumvent binding arbitration. They are willing to give $688 MILLION in CONCESSIONS if Doug will agree to RE-ORDER the seniority list!!!!! YGBFKM!!!! We are trying to restore the profession yet the east pilots are willing to sell us all out in order to steal AWA seniority. They aren't scabs but they're about as close as you can possibly get. Maybe we should call them sores. This is not democracy prevailing, this is the majority abusing the minority. You WON'T get away with it.


Subject: Overturning Nicolau Award
Author: XXXXX XXXXXXXX
Date: 12 Feb 2008 01:28 PM

As many of you know, we have been promising for some time to overturn the Nicolau Award. Our law firm has from the very beginning of this process assured us that this would be “highly, highly, likely” Through a more thorough review of the legal landscape and court precedences we have to come to realize that overturning the award has a slim chance of success.

I know that this will be disheartening news to many of you, particularly when we are so close to the NMB vote allowing us to control our future. Take heart. Our plan to protect your career has now shifted from completely overturning the award, to an approach which would essentially make an end-run around the list. This list will still be out there, however our intention is to make it very hard to ever implement it. This is an approach which really is “highly, highly likely.”

Some of you may be questioning our change in focus with respect to the Nicolau award. We have had a titanic shift in thinking with regard to our herculean effort to get you the protections you are rightly justified in having concerns. Let me take the time to explain our plan moving forward.

Once we become the bargaining agent for all US Airways pilots, we will take over contract negotiations. As we have reported to you (and supported by past court cases) your seniority does not “belong” to you. Rakestraw v. United demonstrated this (see PHL Roadshow videos). Seniority is a negotiable item, and is only good until the next barganing cycle. ALPA has set this legal precedent itself. In the United case ALPA paid United $200 million to correct the seniority of the pilots that honored the picket lines. Moving the 539 scabs behind the 570 pilots that honored the strike set the standard for the cost associated with renegotiating seniority. $200million divided by 539 pilots comes out to approximately $371,058 per pilot. With approximately 1800 America West pilots, we’ll need about $668 Million to re-order the seniority list. While this may seem like an unrealistic amount of money, please realize that you won’t have to pay for ANY of it.

Doug Parker has shown time and time again that this merger was simply about finances. Well, two can play at that game. You may recall his cost-neutral stance when his negotiators were last at the barganing table. Our plan is simple: give Doug what he wants, and we get what we want. A cost neutral contract will easily save the company $668 million. All that we ask for in return is to order the seniority list on a date of hire basis, with reasonable adjustments made for time of service. True, this will cause SOME reordering of our own seniority list, but I think we can all agree that those of us that loose a little will benefit from the fact that most of us will gain 1800 numbers of furlough protection.

To close out this post, and to further demostrate to you how different USAPA is from ALPA I want to share with you several court summaries that we received from one of our pilot volunteers. I think they demostrate that we really pay attention to input from our pilot group, that we are not so set in our ways that we can’t change direction, and that we truly are a transparent union. Some of the language is not at polished as we strive for in our communications, but I wanted you to see the unfiltered emotion which drives our great movement. When reading these summaries ask yourself this question: “Would ALPA allow information that is critical of itself to be widely distributed?” I think we all know the answer to that question, and that is why we were able to submit over 3000 cards to the NMB. Remember: USAPA is about giving US Airways pilots the right to make a choice!

________________________________________________________________________

THE PREVIOUS WAS NOT WRITTEN BY, NOR EXPRESSES THE OPINIONS OF, ANYONE ASSOCIATED WITH USAPA.

​

So.... now you can see what we (you) are up against - it really is pitiful and pathetic. Now the timid have taken to faking board entries; tacit admission that USAPA has already prevailed in the battle of ideas.

We recognize the fact that long term ALPA positions are at risk both East and West, but we expect the parties, including all pilots, to conduct themselves in a professional manner. Pilots should be able to vote using accurate information. Falsification of communications steals the pilot's right to make an informed decision.

Take a deep breath everyone, it's going to get worse. Note that the above piece of sophomoric propaganda is unsigned..

 

[Longhorn]

MOD INPUT

It has come to our attention that this letter is possibly a FAKE. If it is, it will be taken down. Green, can you please explain why if it is a fake, you would post that on here? Would someone please take the time to verifly if the original post is indeed a fake, or if it is real.

Thanks.
LH

 

[Longhorn]

WELL, Never mind....Turtle, thank you for posting that....


GREEN...shame on you for starting this thread based on a false post/email.