USAPA's Real Motivation

[jayme]

ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....

I don't get it: what could ALPA have done to "deel" with the "problem".

The way I understand it, there are no legal grounds to fight the award.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well Joe?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't get it: what could ALPA have done to "deel" with the "problem".

The way I understand it, there are no legal grounds to fight the award.

Not fight the award.....deel with seniority differently....We have made seniority so important and so non-transferable, that it doesn't matter who represents a pilot group, ALPA or USAPA, we will fight for our seniority....

No other profession is hampered as much by seniority as we are.....It prevents any peaceful combination......Look at the past mergers.....They are all ugly.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not fight the award.....deel with seniority differently....

amazing Joe.... where do you come up with such brilliance....


What about this... Joe....


HOW to deal with sen differently...

HOW Joe HOW.....







HOW!

 

[JoeMerchant]

amazing Joe.... where do you come up with such brilliance....


What about this... Joe....


HOW to deal with sen differently...

HOW Joe HOW.....







HOW!

I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've listed many in the past....but the ALPA cheerleader section always answer with "that isn't realistic".....

Anyway......here is just one idea.....let's see how you tear it apart....

We should go to a European/UPS style pay schedule....Pay based on longevity and seat....not based on aircraft size....

There is too much "mine is bigger than yours" BS in these arguments....Who cares how big it is.....

Same pay for all aircraft would nulify much of the seniority issue.....Longevity would be awarded based on DOH.....

OK, now it's time for the ALPA cheerleaders to tell how that isn't possible.....even though UPS and most European carriers do that.....

Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Status pay has good points. I am not opposed to it. Cuts down on training costs...

again still Joe... you got broad brush ideas and then blame ALPA for not coming up with the workable details...

many guys like aircraft pay... they like making more money and moving from domenstic narrow body to WB int'l. Its like a new job within the career. Status pay takes that away....

So.. how does DAL, UAL etc... switch over from 70 years of seat pay to status pay....

first you have to convince the alpa power structure, EB and EC.... the lawyers etc... They might say the complex pay schemes are beneficial to pilots...


they you have to convince the membership of the need. They might reply.. what is wrong with the the current pay...

Then you have to convince managment.... which maybe be easiest of all... then again...

what else am I missing...

So its not so easy to wave your hand and say it should be so.....

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Here you go again.... you got great ideas... its just those damm roadblocker in Herndon....

How'd I know that you'd start the blame game...

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

Riiiiight.... you got value baby... bang for your buck...

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....

 

[JoeMerchant]

No... the burden is on each member of democracy to have realitic expectations... democracy was meant to be painfully slow and fustrating.... not instantaneously gratifying....

In addition, I am not a quitter like you. I realize that alpa has big problems, but I stick around to make the best of the situation....

The problems that ALPA are facing can't wait for "painfully slow and frustrating" solutions....if that is the best you Herndon lapdogs can do....then you will be replaced......

Like the Social Security and Medicare problems.....these problems will get worse and the solutions will get more painfull and costly the longer the politicians fiddle.....

Big problems require leaders.....not politicians.....I see lots of politicians.....

 

[Eagle757shark]

Saying it isn't easy, isn't the same as saying one doesn't have solutions....There are solutions, but they involve thinking outside the box and they involve leadership from Herndon.....

I don't think Herndon has what it takes.....

Many don't weigh the consequences of not doing something when they start looking at the cost......The cost of not taking an action can be more costly than the cost of taking action....

The burden is on you ALPA cheerleaders to convince people that ALPA can change.....If not, expect ALPA to continue to die on the vine.....The choice is yours since you want it to hang around.....I am ready to watch it wither......

But how is this the fault of Alpa national. If your pilot group would like a single payscale for aircraft and longevity pay, then why doesn't your pilot group make that known to your MEC and make it a point of emphasis during contract negotiations? What is missing here is that we as union members are responsible for the leaders we vote into office. Our leaders have a responsibility to represent the pilots of THEIR company. If they don't, we as pilots have a responsibility to remove them. The question remains, who chose to go to binding arbitration? Did Alpa national decide this or did the USAir MEC decide this and why? Regardless of emotions, was a legal verdict decided and are there grounds for it to be legally challenged?

 

[waveflyer]

ALPA dug their own grave by ignoring the seniority issue......USAPA is doing what they feel is best for them....which is exactly what every other group has ever done.....

Seniority is our achilles heel.....ALPA can either deel with the problem, or accept the consequences of ignoring it.....

God, I hate to say i agree with this guy on anything-- but he has it nailed... too bad he's the one saying it- it should have more credibility than that.

It's about LEVERAGE. Why have a NATIONAL union if there is NO NATIONAL PLAN to increase leverage nationwide? If every carrier can do whatever they want- and we have a system that marries us to each carrier so it damn well better be that way- then explain why have a national union at all? This is central to the uSAPa argument.

Management uses our seniority against us... what's the solution? Like i said- i hate it- but Joe's right- keep ignoring it and USAPA's just the first to bail.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...

 

[Turtle21]

Green,

Did you write that???

That letter is complete B.S. and DID NOT come from USAPA. My bet is ALPA wrote and tried to pass it off as USAPA...

Are you suggesting that ALPA might float a turd to get votes?

Dear sir, name just one instance where ALPA ever floated fear, uncertainty, or doubt to manipulate the membership to the benefit of the national leader's salary. Just one. I dare you...:blush:

 

[BeCareful!]

Looks like the USAPA guys are sandbagging.... but still insisting on success.... just give us a chance (and 668MM)!!

highly, highly (un)likely.......

Rez,

You mean to tell me you fell for Green's little game of MSU (Make $hit Up)?

That is not a USAPA letter. It's pure fiction, and rather poorly done for the most part. Anyone who knows what's really going on at USAPA can see this.

But I won't confuse any of you die hard ALPA supporters with the facts.....it will only upset your stay-the-course mentality.

 

[Green]

i did not write that. I just copied and pasted from the Alpa web board where it was listed as a letter from usapa. You say it's a fake? Are those not USAPA's intentions? Do whatever it takes to get doug parker to buy off on re-ordering the seniority list?

I concede that the letter likely isn't legit but the intentions behind it are alive and well at USAPA HQ. Just come out and admit it guys. USAPA fully intends to use all their resources to screw AWA pilots. You plan on stealing our seniority and have zero intention of honoring the process you signed up for. All very honorable positions for such an experienced group. You should be proud....