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Usapa Vote

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Wow.. a band of teenagers wearing black lipstick and goth clothes have more optimism and real ideas that turtle and Joey....

Turtle... tell us how USAPA is going to manage the money. Get off the hyberbole and rhetorical rants. Your right wing tactic of using a higher degree of vitriol and bile and using the same debate points is laughable. For example if I called someone a dirty pig the tactic is to repsond with *$&@( pig. If you want a link to a website that shows these debate tactics...let me know.. you probably don't even realize it...

Now.. please explain USAPA's plan to offer pilot protections , insurance, etc.. It appears USAPA is only thinking about seniority protections and not the day to day business of a union. Like representing a guy who discharges his weapon.


Joe.. you are a cynical pilot of despair and latch onto anyone who chides ALPA.... you're an angry member of the mob who joins anyone who spews venom.

But let's hear your seniority ideas.... I've asked many times and you have nothing to offer..


Will you reply to post #51?
 
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Its clear that most of the USAPA supporters don't want to see a better union. They just want to see US Airways fail.

Thats ok I guess. I'm 31. In the big picture I wont have a problem starting over somewhere else. I'm pretty sure I won't be seeing these late 40 something and 50 something USAPA hotheads in my new hire class at XYZ airlines, though.

Oh well. Good luck to you.
 
Its clear that most of the USAPA supporters don't want to see a better union. They just want to see US Airways fail.

Thats ok I guess. I'm 31. In the big picture I wont have a problem starting over somewhere else. I'm pretty sure I won't be seeing these late 40 something and 50 something USAPA hotheads in my new hire class at XYZ airlines, though.

Oh well. Good luck to you.

This is getting good, did USAPA also cause the war in Iraq, and the economy to fail?
We get it USAPA=Bad!! ALPA=Good!
Thank you, your post actually made me realize this stuff is not worth taking seriously, with every post it just gets more and more ridiculous.
OK rant over, you can go back to USAPA=Bad ALPA= Good
 
This is getting good, did USAPA also cause the war in Iraq, and the economy to fail?
We get it USAPA=Bad!! ALPA=Good!
Thank you, your post actually made me realize this stuff is not worth taking seriously, with every post it just gets more and more ridiculous.
OK rant over, you can go back to USAPA=Bad ALPA= Good

ALPA is a sick patient and USAPA is a cough from that sick patient......
 
Wow.. a band of teenagers wearing black lipstick and goth clothes have more optimism and real ideas that turtle and Joey....

Turtle...

Its a vote.. Its called democracy. Enjoy it. Its a pretty useful idea. The majority will express what is best. Don't be such a hater.

By the way, the volume of your posts and the enthusiasm you present make it clear that you either get FPL to post on these boards or you are sincerely gunning for such a position.

All the best to you.
 
This is getting good, did USAPA also cause the war in Iraq, and the economy to fail?
We get it USAPA=Bad!! ALPA=Good!
Thank you, your post actually made me realize this stuff is not worth taking seriously, with every post it just gets more and more ridiculous.
OK rant over, you can go back to USAPA=Bad ALPA= Good

Lighten up Francis. Learn to read. Show me where I said any of the above comments. Don't be puttin words in my mouth. I'll let you know loud and clear what I have to say.

I've seen posts where people claiming to be East pilots say that they would rather see US Airways fail than accept the Nic award. I have read things like this on these very boards.

I never said that ALPA was good. At least ALPA will piss-off the airline evenly. USAPA only exists to favor the East side and screw the West.

What do you really think is going to happen if USAPA wins? At the Phoenix roadshow they basically said they would concede to a less that parity contract if it will win over management. They basically said they don't have a plan B if they can't change the Nic award (and they wont be able to). If they win it will be an endless legal battle. Right after USAPA wins some legacy carrier is going to buy us and staple all of us to the bottom of their list. Nothing will get done. This senario is a management's wet dream.

US Airways pilots, East and West, are gonna get slaughtered. We will get wipsawed against each other just like the regionals.

The part that I don't understand is this: when our MECs agreed to go into binding arbitration we all realized that there was a chance that we might not like the outcome. So why did you agree to binding arbitration? I think that the East guys really thought this Nicolaou was going to hand to you our asses on a silver platter, and when that didn't happen you went postal.

Right now the East guys are the majority. But remember, in 10 years when the east guys start retiring, we'll eventually be the majority. And we wont forget what you did to us.
 
How is that?

The Presidents salary is determined by democratic election by pilot representatives. How is your CEO's salary and compensation determined.

Pocket your money? They do get a living allowance to live in Wash DC. And they must pay taxes on that allowance as if it were income.

I posted before... BC, the VP of Admin, an AMR Eagle pilot makes around 100K, I am guessing. Should he sell his house and buy a Wash DC property?

Volunteering for your union actually cost money. For the common committee member to the Nat'l Officers.

But you would know that from your volunteering days. Tell me... what did you volunteer for?



What you really need to think about is the salaries of "ALPA management"




Who? The USAPA guys? They have no back up plan, no insurance plans, no money and are using personal credit cards to run thier experiment in DOH grabs.
ALPA:Housing allowance average for each of the four National Officers = $9,856/month/officer or
$118,275 each per year. Seems to me these guys could team up and get a really swanky crash pad for alot less! All this while a fellow MESA F/O eats out of his lunch kit earning 20K per year. Flying segment times..who needs block or better?? This under the wonderful ALPA contract. Or the Atlas Air Pilot who sits in Nairobi earning nothing but per diem for 5 days under his ALPA contract. Who needs a duty rig??These just to name a few.
 
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Its a vote.. Its called democracy. Enjoy it. Its a pretty useful idea. The majority will express what is best. Don't be such a hater.

Might doesn't make right... or what does the USAPA lawyer call it? Oh yeah... Tyranny of the Majority is also called democracy.. riiiiiight...

By the way, the volume of your posts and the enthusiasm you present make it clear that you either get FPL to post on these boards or you are sincerely gunning for such a position.

All the best to you.

Trying to gracefully bow out?
 
Might doesn't make right... or what does the USAPA lawyer call it? Oh yeah... Tyranny of the Majority is also called democracy.. riiiiiight...


....unless you are on the side of "might"....You are the preacher of democracy....unless it doesn't suit you I guess....

Tyranny of the Majority is what some of us have been fighting against within ALPA.....

Funny how people like democracy when it suits them......
 
....unless you are on the side of "might"....You are the preacher of democracy....unless it doesn't suit you I guess....

What is democratic or honaorable about agree to Nic then back tracking?

Tyranny of the Majority is what some of us have been fighting against within ALPA.....

No... you are just a poor loser.

Funny how people like democracy when it suits them......

Funny how people don't like democracy when they don't get thier way... and sue.
 
What is democratic or honaorable about agree to Nic then back tracking?



No... you are just a poor loser.



Funny how people don't like democracy when they don't get thier way... and sue.

Didn't ALPA agree to a contract at Alaska that included binding arbitration....and didn't ALPA sue when they didn't agree with the binding arbitration....Sorry Rez...that is how things work...
 
Didn't ALPA agree to a contract at Alaska that included binding arbitration....and didn't ALPA sue when they didn't agree with the binding arbitration....Sorry Rez...that is how things work...


Didn't you get schooled on that already?

How much did the RJDC lawsuit cost you?
 
Dear US Airways Pilots,

My name is Roger Hall. I have been with Continental Airlines for 18 years. I am writing this to shed some truth about the recent letter you received from Jay Peirce, the MEC Chairman at Continental Airlines. I am also writing this to urge to vote for USAPA.

Let me start by saying that in 2001, I wanted nothing more than to have ALPA on the property here at Continental. Growing up and watching my father serve as an ALPA LEC Rep and Council Chairman had made me believe that ALPA was the way to go. I always knew that my father was fighting for either the career preservation or improvement of his fellow pilots. When we here at CAL were faced with the vote I thought it was a simple choice. I talked my father and was shocked when he told me it was best to stay Independent and that it will be the better choice for the long haul. He told me of the pitfalls and of how little power the pilots really have under ALPA. He warned that once some of the so called volunteers were in, they became lifers motivated by self interest and said I need look no farther than the one MEC vice-chairmen of the eighties, he is still wearing a suit and tie and he is the VP of Finance today. You will pay for the all the trapping, pomp and circumstance of a national union with no sense of the profession and receive less efficient bargaining and be tied to policies that try to serve to many masters and likely not serve your own pilot group well. Well I didn’t listen I voted ALPA and regret it now more that ever.

It didn’t take long to realize that it was a mistake. Contract ’02 negotiations were delayed from the start following the 9/11 Attacks. Airline management used this against all Airlines. We saw A Plans go, some without union ratification, pay cuts, work rule changes, and the list goes on. Well instead of ALPA National standing up and rallying all the Airline pilots to fight the fight, ALPA sat back and watched each airline go their own way. Meanwhile APA, the union that represents American Pilots didn’t back down that easy. Despite the fact that they were near bankruptcy the fought back against Management theft and preserved their A Plan, maintained the best B Plan in the industry and had snap back provisions.

Here at CAL under the first and only ALPA contract I have experienced, things are not better, they are worse. Keep in mind that we were not threatened by Bankruptcy or in Bankruptcy like American or US Airways. We had a CEO that told us we are better than everyone else, our cost are lower, and that we are prepared to fly into the future with our young fleet. Yet the independent union at APA far out negotiated our ALPA contingent and the engineered the replacement of their CEO to boot.

Here are just a few things that were given up;

-Replacing line construction with a preferential bidding system that is a mess. PBS doesn’t fully honor seniority and if you are not a program specialist every month is a crap shoot. Pilots are putting off upgrade and transitions because the schedules are so bad. We have pilots in the 60% holding B757/B767 Captain and 2 year pilots as B737 Captains because no body wants them. Well more than a thousand pilots bypassed upgrade to Captain.

-The way our Vacations and training are credited make for an awful bid month. I hold a better schedule without vacation than I do with a vacation week.

-Our Frozen A plan is just that frozen not protected.

-We have no Snap Back. ALPA negotiations will start below where ALPA experts left us 6 years ago.

-There is no Schedule Improvement again because of PBS.

-As Part of Contract ’02, we had a side letter that protected us in case the other Union Groups didn’t ratify their contracts. We didn’t have to honor our contract until such a time that all employees took pay cuts. Well that side letter didn’t last ONE DAY. Our then MEC Chairman, Captain Jay Panarello, gave CAL Management the green light for the concessions, WITHOUT Membership Approval. Is this really what you want in a Union.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are not better off with ALPA. There is no National Unity, there is no National Expertise, there is No 61,000 Strong, there is No Merger Protection, No Seniority Protection, No Insurance or Medical protection. All of the above can be attained or protected just as easy with an Independent Union. I am working under the worse conditions of my career. Other than hourly rate I had a better Quality of life under the Old Frank Lorenzo Pilot Employment Policy when hired in 1990 than I do under an ALPA Contract.

Remember You are the Union, You are what makes it strong and you have the chance to Own your Union and not come second the interest of others or the Union itself. Just ask yourself, are the pilots at Southwest, UPS, American, AirTran worse off than us ALPA Carriers, or has their Independent Unions served them well?

In closing I am embarrassed of our Union President, in 15 moths at the helm he has signed a Comair concessionary contract, and done more to divide pilots than anyone before him. While we all continue to live in an uncertain environment with Losses in Pay and Quality of Life, our fearless leaders continue to live like fat cats. I ask, “John Prater, How is that taking it back?”

I fully support the USAPA efforts and will continue to see all pilots as my brothers and sisters no matter what the paint scheme on the airframe is. I urge each and everyone of you to vote for USAPA.

Fraternally,

Roger Hall II
EWR B737 Captain


 
Didn't you get schooled on that already?

How much did the RJDC lawsuit cost you?

It didn't cost me that much....I am getting much of my expenses back thru the settlement......

Back to the "binding arbitration"....why is it different when ALPA opposes the result of "binding arbitration".....You can't have it both ways Rez....if it is binding....then ALPA should have just accepted it....Why did ALPA sue?
 
It didn't cost me that much....I am getting much of my expenses back thru the settlement......

How much....

Back to the "binding arbitration"....why is it different when ALPA opposes the result of "binding arbitration".....You can't have it both ways Rez....if it is binding....then ALPA should have just accepted it....Why did ALPA sue?

In fact I think PCL schooled you. You know.. the S/T that served with integrity....
 
In fact I think PCL schooled you. You know.. the S/T that served with integrity....

Tell me how "binding arbitration" means different things depending on which side of the fence you are on.....I'm not familiar with that concept.....
 
Turtles list must include furloughs. I'm reasonably sure AAA doesn't have that many active pilots.
 
DOH does not equate to a staple. The only pilots that got stapled were East pilots. 17 years of service and they get stapled behind newhires. Most furloughed pilots should have been back on the property long time ago. Most of them are holding blocks and E 190 captain slots. We are still undermanned. Reserves are all timed out. We are seriously short.

DOH with fences and protections is the only fair way.

AWA pilots do not want to wait their turn. In 10 years, about 75% of the EAST will be gone. So, all you former Mesa pilots at AWA, I know you liked stealing our flying. AWA is a scab infested airline and thats were scabs belong. Its funny that a large number of AWA are MESA and Trans States. Two proud ALPA carriers that love taking away mainline flying.

I say permanent separate lists sine the Nic will never be implemented. Then sell off the unprofitable West. Let them merge with ALOHA so they can save someone else.

Marty

Wow. As Rez said pretty emotional. Although the facts are, Regional PILOTS didn't steal mainline flying. Mainline management wanted lower cost and though negotiations with their mainline pilots, the mainline pilots gave up their scope. Mesa pilots are not Scabs. Mesa pilots didn't steal your flying.
 
Is that the difference between the two groups? Ouch......

The numbers I posted were a guess at the voting results.

Actual official numbers of the eligible voters according to the NMB (the only ones who count) are as follows:

East 3542
West 1771
Total 5313

At least 2657 pilots must vote or there will be no CBA. Union with the most votes is the new CBA.

And as for the furlough question. There are no furloughs.


http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2008/35n020.pdf
 
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Turtle - the chance of almost 90% of your pilot group voting FOR usapa is about as likely as you getting DOH ever. Not going to happen. Sorry buddy.

The vote total will definitely be above the threshold - I have no question about that.

My guess is it will be about 4500 total votes and very close to 2000/2000 split are already decided and/or have voted. It's the remaining 500 that will decide it all. Your 3186/1502 guess is typical of you USAPA koolaid drinkers. You have absolutely no clue what your doing and are so detached from reality and reason that it would be hillarious if it wasn't so depressingly true.

I suspect with no plan B and a questionable plan A at very best, the swing votes will favor ALPA or abstain all together.

Let's see, no insurance contracts, no credit line from the bank, your aeromedical guy refuses to work with Harvey Watt, you desire to fight a losing legal battle for DOH. Looks like the only one who's going to win will be Seham - maybe you should just send him your money directly.

How will USAPA handle pilot grievances, sec 19 and other disciplanary issues, benefits, R&I, negotiating a new contract (hint, a 1 man team with a fractured pilot group will never work), FAA interface, TSA interface, pro standards questions, and the myriad of other daily union issues that are fires that never go out? How are they going to handle all that and magically get you DOH with their cut and paste job of APA's bylaws and constitution?

If you vote for USAPA you must realize that DOH is a flawed assumption and ONCE AGAIN you will be denied your requests...from the company (who has already accepted the list and publically stated they will not accept anything but a relative list), West litigation and any legal venue. Millions will be spent and literally years will pass without any raise or contract improvement only to hear NO one more time.

Your fellow East pilots are not stupid lemmings like yourself and my bet is they will see the cliff and stop before blindly jumping like you have.
 
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If your weapon accidentally discharges in flight, would you rather call ALPA or USAPA? Last weekend, the AAA and AWA Flight Operations Security Committee chairmen, AAA and AWA MEC chairmen, and ALPA National officers and legal staff started work immediately to ensure that the integrity of the FFDO program was protected and that the pilot involved received the appropriate advice and representation.
Ask yourself: Would USAPA be able to provide that same level of service? Would USAPA have direct contacts with the FAM service and the TSA to ensure your rights as an FFDO and union member are secure?
No. We know it and USAPA knows it.
The Bottom Line: ALPA will work to protect you from unforeseen events. Make your vote count in this election by voting FOR ALPA!


Thought this was an interesting point and applied to those who were undecided....
 
Turtle - the chance of almost 90% of your pilot group voting FOR usapa is about as likely as you getting DOH ever. Not going to happen. Sorry buddy.

The vote total will definitely be above the threshold - I have no question about that.

My guess is it will be about 4500 total votes and very close to 2000/2000 split are already decided and/or have voted. It's the remaining 500 that will decide it all. Your 3186/1502 guess is typical of you USAPA koolaid drinkers. You have absolutely no clue what your doing and are so detached from reality and reason that it would be hillarious if it wasn't so depressingly true.

I suspect with no plan B and a questionable plan A at very best, the swing votes will favor ALPA or abstain all together.

Let's see, no insurance contracts, no credit line from the bank, your aeromedical guy refuses to work with Harvey Watt, you desire to fight a losing legal battle for DOH. Looks like the only one who's going to win will be Seham - maybe you should just send him your money directly.

How will USAPA handle pilot grievances, sec 19 and other disciplanary issues, benefits, R&I, negotiating a new contract (hint, a 1 man team with a fractured pilot group will never work), FAA interface, TSA interface, pro standards questions, and the myriad of other daily union issues that are fires that never go out? How are they going to handle all that and magically get you DOH with their cut and paste job of APA's bylaws and constitution?

If you vote for USAPA you must realize that DOH is a flawed assumption and ONCE AGAIN you will be denied your requests...from the company (who has already accepted the list and publically stated they will not accept anything but a relative list), West litigation and any legal venue. Millions will be spent and literally years will pass without any raise or contract improvement only to hear NO one more time.

Your fellow East pilots are not stupid lemmings like yourself and my bet is they will see the cliff and stop before blindly jumping like you have.


Dude you should print that post on a piece of paper and pick it up 10 years from now.

It was just a guess. Two little numbers that have no bearing on your life whatsoever. But I had no idea it would result in such a spirited response filled with such condescension, ridicule, and hate. But then again, thats what ALAP has brought us.

Buy some flowers for your wife or play outside with the kids. You need a little sunshine.

3186 was for ALPA!:beer: The ballot did ask us to vote "No".
 
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Really....such desparation.

Has anyone ever seen so much mail spewing from ALPA? Man, they weren't so "concerned" when they gave away the pension without a vote. They weren't so "concerned" when the Nic first came out. But now, boy, they're really concerned. And fearful, too. What a bunch of pussies. Not my kind of union, for sure.

They're so concerned, they drag up six month old e-mails to discredit the competition. (USAPA really does have better insurance lined up.) How grade school is that?

Funnier is how anyone thinks ALPA has any credibility left. All this crap they're saying, mailing, recording....in fact, all the crap the windfall-hopefulls are posting here....Everyone sees right through it.

Post away, boys. All your dire predictions are easy to see through. Hint: ALPA has been lying to the East for so many years, the pilots finally "get it." No information emanating from ALPA or its supporters, or its suddenly "concerned" pilots, or the National mother(f) ship has ANY validity any more. It's all bull$hit, and a huge number of West pilots would feel this way right now, too, if their vision wasn't clouded by the Nic and the salivation over aircraft and routes and seats they NEVER expected to fly just a few years ago.

You guys are just as big a bunch of a$$hole cry babies as the next group, you just aren't on the painful end of this one.

And while some guys I know are spiteful and would like to see you there, it will probably never happen. I know that USAPA isn't going to try to screw anyone. You might not get quite the windfall that Nic represents, but.....awe, gee :(

Oh, I know......here come the posts discrediting me and everything that isn't ALPA/West/ACPC, etc. So g'damn predictable, all you Westies here on FI.com.

May as well post another old or fake e-mail, or some fake USAPA posting to soothe yourselves.

18 days.
 
Really....such desparation.

ALPA is concerned. And of course they could have done things better in the past. Yup creditbility is an issue. In fact if ALPA had more creditbility and respect then I would venture that none of this USAPA mess would happen cause the rogues would never try to go solo... they would've known this USAPA exp. would never fly. It's a recognized problem...

Has anyone ever seen so much mail spewing from ALPA?

I'd imagine that if USAPA had the money they'd do it too... No?



Man, they weren't so "concerned" when they gave away the pension without a vote.

Who is they? Those rank and file members that voted for it?


They weren't so "concerned" when the Nic first came out.

Actually, weren't you told how Nic was going to go down? Yet you weren't concerned about it. And when you got what was expected all if a sudden you wanted to change rules after play had begun.


But now, boy, they're really concerned. And fearful, too. What a bunch of pussies. Not my kind of union, for sure.

Straight forward, I haven't seen much logic on the USAPA side. I mean we all know what you want... but there seems to be very little valid arguements. For DOH, Nic, the split and your future.

Its all talk right now....

As the email said to Bradford... [my words] All they've got from us is promises.

USAPA really does have better insurance lined up.

Like... really? Or really really has ins. lined up?

[when my niece wants to be believed she says really. If she doesn't think she will be believed she says it twice.]

Who is the company? New York Life? Self insured?

Tell us about it...
 
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