USAPA letter

[Bad-Andy]

But Andy, why didn't you show them your ALPA pin and Lanyard? Or were you sporting one of those sweet yellow ones....?

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride. (Although, I must admit, even after the discussion comes up and I defended ALPA, no one booted me...) Normally I would switch back to my blue one when I commuted in and wear that one while working. But, make no mistake, I don't hide from my decision or my vote, regardless of what color lanyard I wear...

The funny thing about this whole incident is that while it bothered me greatly at first, it may serve a greater purpose -- it made me realize that neither side is absolutely in the right, and both have some serious faults that we'll need to overcome if we want to survive as a company. If I were in your (the West's) shoes, I believe I would just sit back and watch. In the end, you will probably be vindicated (the List will stand), but at what cost?

The phrase "cutting off my nose to spite my face" comes to mind. That's my only point. For all the name calling and insulting I've seen on these boards (and in person in the vans in DFW, BWI, ORD), there are still a lot of good (reasonable) people on both sides of the Mississippi that want to see this place succeed. The handful that want to burn it all down based on one decision or another (Nic List or the USAPA vote) are more alike than they are different. Those are the guys (again, on both sides) that I want to see try and go get another job, especially in this environment. Good luck with that........

 

[Bad-Andy]

This sounds fictional.

Even if its true...which I doubt it is...I can give you examples of East crews giving our guys the middle finger as they taxi by. I can give examples of East crews leaving the West crews at the curb waiting for the hotel vans. I can give you examples of East crews taking West bags off the van and leaving those on the curb. I can give countless examples of East crews giving our guys dirty looks in the terminal.

Trust me, it is not fictional. I wish it was. As for the East crews doing those sorts of things to West crews, I have no doubt that those things are every bit as true. I make no claim that the guys on either side are angels. That is the absurd, idiotic behavior that I was refering to above. We would all be better off without all of those guys (both East and West). My only point is that not all the East guys are "thugs" (as it was put), and neither are all of the West guys innocent "victims." In a civilized world, we deal with problems when they arise as two civilized adults, not as neanderthalic cavemen.

Oh well.... Maybe our next jobs will be better.....

 

[Freight Dog]

Look JT8D... don't use my opinions of ALPA to further your cause of trying to justify that USAPA abortion.

You wanted DOH and DOH alone. You didn't get it; you wanted arbitration. The result didn't come the way you wanted, so you mob-imposed your will upon another pilot group that rescued you from certain doom by using sheer numbers in an attempt to rewrite the seniority list as you see fit.

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

This whole thing could move forward...even under USAPA...if you would just drop the DOH issue and accept the binding award that you agreed to in the first place.

I know alot of West pilots were not pro ALPA. But all West pilots are not pro USAPA because USAPA's mission statement is to take away our seniority. That's our main concern right now. We'd be willing to participate with and make USAPA a stong viable union if we thought our intrests were being represented.

I can only speak for myself but I have talked to a bunch of our guys and I get the impression that many of the West pilots would be fine with fences. But we are not willing to budge on seniority. The only way seniority will change is if the West pilots agree to change it...and we wont. (And no...USAPA can't just change it because the majority East pilots will vote for it...it doesn't work that way).

When USAPA quits threatening my seniority we'll move forward.

 

[get2flyin]

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

Bingo! We have a winner.

I think you would have been hard pressed to find fanatic ALPA supporters out West before the representation election. In fact, one of my fears if ALPA won the election was they would have mis-interpreted the results and thought they had carte blanche membership support to do whatever they wanted. But given USAPA's goals, ALPA started looking pretty sweet.

 

[Bad-Andy]

When USAPA quits threatening my seniority we'll move forward.

Hopefully that day come sooner, rather than later.....

 

[get2flyin]

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride. (Although, I must admit, even after the discussion comes up and I defended ALPA, no one booted me...) Normally I would switch back to my blue one when I commuted in and wear that one while working. But, make no mistake, I don't hide from my decision or my vote, regardless of what color lanyard I wear...

But you do hide from your decision. You wear a yellow lanyard. If you don't believe in either cause...wear a Dallas Cowboys lanyard or something else. I use a piece of thin climbing rope for a lanyard except when I go to Philly. I switch to the ALPA one for that day because I love seeing the USAPA lovers try to intimidate me with stares. It's just all so childish that it's laughable. So that's exactly what I do, laugh at them.

As far a shove in the van, that's not acceptable. PERIOD. I'm not so foolish that I'd say it didn't happen nor am I so fanatic that I'd say it could ever be justified. But you certainly can't say that sort of thing doesn't go in both directions.

 

[MCDU]

Why are you Scabs out west so worried. You still have your flying and no Easthole has taken anything away from you. You still are flying in your bases and your planes. Could it be that this PFT generation at AWA wants the quick upgrade the EAST offers in the coming years with a very old pilot group or is the furlough cushion of almost 1000 pilots?
The scabs out west are going to be allowed what they can hold with their DOH in our East bases. Why don't you all just stop whining and accept what you brought to the table. LAS, PHX and a little over 100 planes.
It must be frustrating not cashing in something that does not belong to you.

By the way, tell one of your Capt. is last name starts with Angel...and then add a vowel, that he is noted for not letting our crew members commute home on the PHL SFO leg about a week ago. Pretty low not allowing some one from getting home. The pathetic lanyard excuse does not come in to play this time. I hope they fire his loser ass for creating a hostile work environment.

I hope they sell off the West to Mesa. Both are a good fit.

Marty

 

[PositiveRate]

Look JT8D... don't use my opinions of ALPA to further your cause of trying to justify that USAPA abortion.

You wanted DOH and DOH alone. You didn't get it; you wanted arbitration. The result didn't come the way you wanted, so you mob-imposed your will upon another pilot group that rescued you from certain doom by using sheer numbers in an attempt to rewrite the seniority list as you see fit.

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

AMEN!!

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride.

I take back my thank you for your ALPA vote. So much for standing on principal...all that does is show weakness.

Regardless, the shove is unacceptable, but just to reiterate, this is happening on both sides of the fence with unfortunate regularity and it goes nowhere but bad places.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Why are you Scabs out west so worried. You still have your flying and no Easthole has taken anything away from you.

except your union representation...only to be replaced with a generous THREE committee positions, out of 70+.

The scabs out west are going to be allowed what they can hold with their DOH in our East bases.

I don't know why you're calling them scabs...
Keep on dreaming about DOH. The entire industry never gets tired of hearing it.

Why don't you all just stop whining and accept what you brought to the table. LAS, PHX and a little over 100 planes.

as opposed to the nearly liquidated company you brought to the table.

Another great example of USAPA reaching out to the west

 

[PositiveRate]

By the way, tell one of your Capt. is last name starts with Angel...and then add a vowel, that he is noted for not letting our crew members commute home on the PHL SFO leg about a week ago.

We'll pass along our thanks...appreciate the heads up. Seriously, are you totally lacking in integrity? Why would you post someone's name in public...how about you post your last name and employee number so we can 'note' what a tremendous a$s you are...?

You're off your rocker Marty - go kick your dog or something... ;-) You have a horribly misplaced sense of importance in all this. You can belittle us all you'd like if that's your only defense mechanism. All you've really done is soldier in a losing battle.

Just like your recent posts, your new 'union' will slowly unravel.

Have a blessed day.

 

[MCDU]

Nearly liquidated?

I have never seen any evidence of this. Lots of talk. No hard facts. Why would investors and the government invest in something that was on verge of liquidation? Was Usair in bad shape? yes. But it had sound assets and at least 400-500 in unresticted cash.

ATA liquidated. So did Aloha. Who on here was predicting their demise months in advance. The only way to achieve big concessions and to maximize your investment is to envoke fear in order to attain maximum leverage against employees. The goverment loan was payed back in record time.

It is not by coincidence AWA has been the lowest paid pilot group and that allowed their Mesa brothers to flying 90 seat jets. They are a gullible bunch, just like the pilots that voted for LOA 93. There was a reason why Usair had the best contract and pension for many years. Its because we fought for it. Just like now, we will do what in takes .

 

[imacdog]

That East 737 that went into the grass, was that really because the Captain was trying to beat the West plane to the ramp or is that just a nasty rumor?

 

[get2flyin]

Why are you Scabs out west so worried.

Really, Marty? Scabs? Really? I figured you'd save the "I know you are but what am I" defense for later in the game. Best keep that "Lair, Liar, pants on fire" defense handy. You're probably gonna need it

Nearly liquidated?

I have never seen any evidence of this. Lots of talk. No hard facts. Why would investors and the government invest in something that was on verge of liquidation? Was Usair in bad shape? yes. But it had sound assets and at least 400-500 in unresticted cash.

But, but, but.....Never mind. No sense in trying argue with facts when your fantasies are just so darn much fun. I'm sure the $400 - $500 dollars that you mention would have held your ship afloat.

There was a reason why Usair had the best contract and pension for many years. Its because we fought for it. Just like now, we will do what in takes.

And I was the smartest kid in the 1st grade. You're talking past-tense, Marty. What's your point? And how can you argue that you fought for it when you subsequently gave it away? Way to do what it takes, skipper. And then to swat at AWA as being the former bottom of the barrel. Aren't the Easties all out of joint because those "lowlifes" are making more per hour than you and that wasn't fair? So that the bottom of the barrel would be.....you.

 

[MCDU]

I love using the Scab word. Its not what it used to be. Looks like the 90's PFT crowd love using it. So i think I will just use it as well.
Just to make it clear. USair has not one single pilot that ever crossed a picket line. The same can not be said about AWA.

 

[Dan Roman]

That East 737 that went into the grass, was that really because the Captain was trying to beat the West plane to the ramp or is that just a nasty rumor?

Heard the same rumour, can't wait to find out the truth. If it is true, that guy is guilty of being perhaps the most immature and unprofessional pilot in the history of commercial aviation.

 

[Ocity]

I love using the Scab word. Its not what it used to be. Looks like the 90's PFT crowd love using it. So i think I will just use it as well.
Just to make it clear. USair has not one single pilot that ever crossed a picket line. The same can not be said about AWA.

2500 union busters and picket line crossers are exactly the same thing.

Are you sure you work for US Air? When were you hired? What year?

 

[MCDU]

I was hired 26 years ago. Based in PHL. Do the math.

Marty

 

[Fly-n-hi]

I love using the Scab word. Its not what it used to be. Looks like the 90's PFT crowd love using it. So i think I will just use it as well.
Just to make it clear. USair has not one single pilot that ever crossed a picket line. The same can not be said about AWA.

This is the foundation of your arguement? That's weak. AWA has a couple of scabs...big deal. You're just bein' a blow hard. Go away.

What's the PFT 90's crowd? Would that be the guys who fly for MDA? Oh wait, they flew 70 seaters.

On that note, though, who was it that agreed to create a B scale airline called Mid Atlantic? Was it the AAA? I really don't know...but I guess you "did what it takes" to keep that flying at mainline, right?

 

[JT8D]

This is the foundation of your arguement? That's weak. AWA has a couple of scabs...big deal. You're just bein' a blow hard. Go away.

What's the PFT 90's crowd? Would that be the guys who fly for MDA? Oh wait, they flew 70 seaters.

On that note, though, who was it that agreed to create a B scale airline called Mid Atlantic? Was it the AAA? I really don't know...but I guess you "did what it takes" to keep that flying at mainline, right?

THE ONE AND ONLY DEFINITION OF A SCAB IS SOMEONE WHO CROSSES A PICKET LINE AND PERFORMS STRUCK WORK.

THAT'S IT...PERIOD END...OVER... NADA... DONE.

THERE IS NO OTHER DEFINITION.

Construed or not.

Damn young-ins.

How AWA guys can throw that word around, attaching it to everything under the aviation sun when they allow their feed to come from the likes of MESA is beyond me.

 

[PositiveRate]

The east pilots had the chance to participate and craft the decision. In fact the arbitrator pleaded with them to modify their stance, but they refused. When they cling to an unreasonable position, how can they expect any decision to pass their "fairness" test.

How "fair" is it for one faction of the pilot group to make another portion suffer the loss of their ALPA protections, just so that they can prove a point?

How about responsible?
How about honorable?
How about trustworthy?

I see the scab word is getting under your skin. The above quote is eating at me in a similar fashion. Seems none of you want to respond. Care to respond?

 

[JT8D]

I see the scab word is getting under your skin. The above quote is eating at me in a similar fashion. Seems none of you want to respond. Care to respond?

I'll answer it. It won't be the answer you want to hear.

A majority of the pilots at Us Airways elected to bring in an in house union. American pilots did the same thing when they separated from ALPA to create the Allied Pilots Association.

The ONLY reason USAPA came to fruition is because MORE pilots than not voted for the union. Would it be fair for a small group of the pilot group to dictate this decision? Of course not.

Do you think APA was as effective as ALPA the day after the election? Probably not. Are they now? Probably more so.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I'll answer it. It won't be the answer you want to hear.

A majority of the east pilots at US Airways elected to bring in an in house union to undo the Nic award. American pilots did not do anything like this when they separated from ALPA and formed APA.

The ONLY reason USAPA came to fruition is because the east pilots lack integrity and wanted a mulligan on the BINDING arbitration. Would it be fair for the smaller group of the pilots to have an inept association forced on them so the east could attempt to throw out the BINDING arbitration. Of course not!

Do you think APA was as effective as ALPA the day after the election? Probably not. But comparing APA/ALPA with USAPA/ALPA doesn't make any sense, so I'll just quit while I'm ahead.

Fixed it for you.

 

[PositiveRate]

JT8D,

Thanks for the amusing response.

Typical BS spin when comparing uscaba to APA or IPA or SWAPA. They are unions founded in unity, not associations formed specifically to disadvantage factions of their own pilot groups.

And, the ONLY reason your 'worse than scabs' association came to fruition is because you arrogantly believe you can undue/neuter/nullify binding arbitration. It's a faulty foundation, a false promise, and the only thing we have now is less protection going forward.

The industry is changing before our eyes and we are protectionless and fractured because of you.

You can say whatever you want to demean us, stomp as hard as you'd like, scream at the top of your voice that you're not a SC'waaaa'B. Whatever it takes for you to sleep at night, but it is what it is.

The facts speak loudly and clearly.

 

[Bad-Andy]

But you do hide from your decision. You wear a yellow lanyard. If you don't believe in either cause...wear a Dallas Cowboys lanyard or something else. I use a piece of thin climbing rope for a lanyard except when I go to Philly. I switch to the ALPA one for that day because I love seeing the USAPA lovers try to intimidate me with stares.

No, I can quite honestly say I do not hide from my decisions. I am quite willing to express my opinions freely and honestly, when appropriate (and most of my friends would add at times when inappropriate...). As for the lanyard, I wore it to commute. Period. I still have an obligation to my employer and to my family to get to work on time. Why jeopardize that? Why antagonize anyone with it? Funny enough, the day after the incident in Dallas I threw the yellow one away, I threw the ALPA (blue) one away, and now I strictly wear the company blue lanyard. My not wanting to antagonize anyone goes both ways...

The sad part is I was dumb enough to come here voluntarily as a new-hire and put myself in the middle of this mess. I listened to my moderate friends (at both east and west) that told me not to worry, this would all blow over soon, blah blah blah... Oh well, maybe the next stop will be better.........

 

[Bad-Andy]

I take back my thank you for your ALPA vote.

That's quite all right. I did not vote for ALPA for your thanks. Nor did I do so for you. I did it because I believed (and still do believe) that ALPA has the best resources and the best method to put this all behind us. (A fair an equitable settlement). I felt ALPA was the best way for us all to get a joint contract and begin moving on... And maybe, just maybe, I do fall into the camp that believes that binding is just that -- binding. And, I believe that a man (or group of men in this case) should stand by his agreements, win-lose-or draw...

 

[MCDU]

Bad Andy. Your feeling is wrong. ALPA is a disaster. Good luck and welcome to US Airways.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Yawwwwnnnnnn.....

 

[eaglesview]

Can’t wait to have all this excitement at UAL.

 

[Ocity]

THE ONE AND ONLY DEFINITION OF A SCAB IS SOMEONE WHO CROSSES A PICKET LINE AND PERFORMS STRUCK WORK.

THAT'S IT...PERIOD END...OVER... NADA... DONE.

THERE IS NO OTHER DEFINITION.

Construed or not.

Damn young-ins.

How AWA guys can throw that word around, attaching it to everything under the aviation sun when they allow their feed to come from the likes of MESA is beyond me.

It's Beyond you because you've never looked at a dictionary.

scab

3 entries found.

scab[1,noun] scab[2,intransitive verb] apple scab

Main Entry:1scab Pronunciation: \ˈskab\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch — more at shaveDate:13th century 1: scabies of domestic animals2: a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound3 a: a contemptible person b (1): a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2): a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3): a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4): one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms4: any of various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots; also : one of the spots


Visually explore scab HealthMaps on Healthline:

1. Scab
2. Eschar


Learn more about "scab" and related topics at Britannica.com
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