USAPA letter

[Bad-Andy]

I don't want to be represented by a gang of thugs lacking ethics

Kind of like tha West Captain that thought it was appropriate to give me a little "nudge" in the van in DFW a couple of weeks ago? Those kind of thugs? At least the F/O was nice about it, as was the lead F/A that came down to the bar and apologized... (After they found out I was one of the 400 or so ALPA voters....) Just remember, it isn't a one-way street here. You complain that they (the East) are "throwing a temper tantrum" because of Nic, but how about the same condemnation of the "thugs" on your side that are resulting to pushing and shoving because they are angry about the results of the election? Same level of maturity, in my book. (But, that's only one man's opinion...)

Now, back on topic, anyone know for sure if there are more classes beyond May (wholly owned or otherwise...)?

 

[SaturnPilot]

Legally allowed?

People like vetrider clearly do not WANT to be represented. That is their choice. That can't be blamed on USAPA. Support your union or not.

Whether or not people want to be represented does not releive the union of it's duties of fair representation. Even if they did want to be involved, they don't really have much of a chance to. Do you realize that out of the numerous committee positions available, USAPA is only asking for THREE west pilots to serve on them as a "liason"? That's three west pilots out of over 70+ committee volunteers.

I think most of the 'AWA' posters on here are former Mesa FNG's that are realizing they aren't going to make CA on the 330 this year after all.

When all else fails, call the westies FNGs, huh?

Yeah, this is much better than ALPA

 

[SaturnPilot]

Since you are so pro ALPA, care to explain the early strife in the NW, DL merger? Where is this eternal ALPA brotherhood of which you speak?

I'll let Rez answer for himself, but I don't understand how the DL/NW situation would be any better if both carriers were independent unions. For all that is going wrong in that merger, at least ALPA is not choosing sides, like USAPA is based on.

I do agree with you though that more of a sense of "brotherhood" is needed.

 

[iflyhigh]

JT8D:

Your comment "I guess the West pilot on here realizes he is not going to make A330 Cap this year", cracks me up.

I know alot of captains on the West, a majority of them (80%) don't want to commute to PHL and fly the aircraft. They like quality of life.

AWA pilots are not like, East guys. They are not going into the cockpit of aircraft and demanding or even telling the person they are going to lose their seats to them. Unlike how you guys acted during the UAL and every other merger.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, your ALPA rhetoric on every thread gets really old man.

I know... how dare I suggest we vote in union affairs, attend LEC meetings and maintian a sense of career SA. The audacity!

Since you are so pro ALPA, care to explain the early strife in the NW, DL merger? Where is this eternal ALPA brotherhood of which you speak? .

It is not that I am pro ALPA, I am pro profession. And ALPA seems to be the name on the wall. Instead of ridding ALPA I suggest we all pitch in and make it better. Problem is too many gues want to be cry babies and not solution dirven professionals..

Let's see... pilots maintain low career SA, don't have a clue and reflect our cultures lifestlye of "up yours I got mine" and keeping up with the Joneses....

So when individuals behave this way, suddenly ALPA is at fault?

Here is one mans opinon of ALPA National at work for him as his airline was shutting down.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1580834#post1580834

"Rez... for one day, I wish you were an Aloha Airlines pilot who found himself without a job and watched what mighty ALPA National has done for Council 80 and one of the oldest ALPA groups in ALPA.

You would drop this whole mantra.

I've already been furloughed twice and displaced twice. I've probably started over more times thatn you in the last seven years: wanna know the difference? I am not a whining cry baby that seeks to blame others for my situation. I made my choices and I'll live with them.

ALPA is in business to collect dues. It might use its help here and there, but it is NOT a union. They were more concerned about getting sued than actually defending the rights of Aloha Airlines pilots. Check this out... the company sells off a piece of the airline (cargo), and now instead of honoring our contract, they offer INTERVIEWS for pilots.

Gee, I read about that if Flying the Line Vol, One. Why are you suprised. and what do you expect ALPA national to do?

Where's ALPA National? Someplace in Herndon writing memos and "strongly worded condemnations."

Well Sonny, pull up all your Ears because here comes an essential fact that all unions seem to ignore...

This is a business, and YOU are an employee!!!!​

You own nothing, you're entitled to nothing more than your union contract, (as long as a bk judge says so)​

Again, it might serve you well to understand some basic capitalistic principles...Unions don't run business. Management will always win in an emergency. Aloha ran out of CASH, just like you running out of blood, the body dies. Wall street doesn't care how prompt you've been with your dues payments.​

You're a pawn.​

Tell me how an in house union would have saved them...I'm sure they're "all ears". Nice try union buster...you'd think you would become accustom to being shot down by now.​

I doubt you'll ever learn, your East Coast sense of entitlement will blind you into the unemployment line.​

Yet, when the strike vote overwhelmingly passed, and Aloha pilots were gonna walk out and say BURN THIS F**KER DOWN! ALPA lawyers were pleading with us not to do it because it would open ALPA for a potential lawsuit even though our airline was in fact shut down, our cargo was operating due to the unique nature of Hawaii cargo, YET WE DON'T KNOW WHO'S GONNA PAY or IF they are gonna pay the pilots. Yet ALPA wanted us to show up for work.

So.... who made the choice? Your MEC or your lawyers? Or ALPA National?

You know what Rez? I want that entire organization to come crumbling down. Why? Because they NO LONGER SERVE A PURPOSE!!! They've proven it in how they've handled our dilemma at Aloha.

Or you could get educated.

Another thing Rez... you kept harping about impeding changes in our industry, the globalization, how we have to change in order to be a part of a change......
I agree with you. In order to do so, we need ALPA to disappear because it is a 1940's relic that is still flying in the 21st century. Like you said, it's time to change. Unfortunately, you can't slap Honeywell FMS, EFIS, and full glass cockpit setup into a DC-3 and continue flying transcons. It just doesn't make any sense.

So lets fight for change. Quite often, too often, one has to fight thier own people with the organization. It is a part of organizational structure.

ALPA is like a radial engine that's trying to survive in a turbofan era. Great for the history books, but that's about it."

I agree. But what is the solution? Let's hang a turbofan on and rid us of the radial.

What is your solution? Zero representation?

In addition, YOU have done everything you can to better your union and yourself?

 

[JT8D]

Kind of like tha West Captain that thought it was appropriate to give me a little "nudge" in the van in DFW a couple of weeks ago? Those kind of thugs? At least the F/O was nice about it, as was the lead F/A that came down to the bar and apologized... (After they found out I was one of the 400 or so ALPA voters....) Just remember, it isn't a one-way street here. You complain that they (the East) are "throwing a temper tantrum" because of Nic, but how about the same condemnation of the "thugs" on your side that are resulting to pushing and shoving because they are angry about the results of the election? Same level of maturity, in my book. (But, that's only one man's opinion...)

Now, back on topic, anyone know for sure if there are more classes beyond May (wholly owned or otherwise...)?

Oh man...that is priceless stuff right there!

Where is 'Bring up the Bird' when you need him.

I need his HP pilot bullet points...

Lessseee...there was ...

Professionalism

Integrity

Maturity

Which one of these categories does this HP CA fit under?

 

[PositiveRate]

Bad-Andy,

Thanks for keeping your head in the ALPA vote and keeping your cool when faced with innapropriate actions from one of our captains. People need to relax...

Most of the anger out West comes from the fact that uscaba was founded with a singular focus of going around or undoing a binding arbitration award. This myopic point of view was crucial in securing a uscaba win and the real result is a substantial reduction of protection for the average line flying joe. Going forward the central promises will be pushed to the backburner in lieu of dealing with the daily BS of running a union with no infrastructure.

Uscaba campaigned on promises they simply will not be able to keep. Where is the DOH retoric now? I thought they would present a contract to the company within two weeks? I thought they were going to hit the ground running on day 1 with a seamless transistion?

The only thing uscaba accomplished was proving there always is a 'greater fool'. It also ensured that ALL of us lose in someway or another. Misery loves company right? The loss going forward will be real...very different from the losses that were perceived before the NMB vote.

 

[get2flyin]

Kind of like tha West Captain that thought it was appropriate to give me a little "nudge" in the van in DFW a couple of weeks ago? Those kind of thugs? At least the F/O was nice about it, as was the lead F/A that came down to the bar and apologized... (After they found out I was one of the 400 or so ALPA voters....)

But Andy, why didn't you show them your ALPA pin and Lanyard? Or were you sporting one of those sweet yellow ones....?

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Since you are so pro ALPA, care to explain the early strife in the NW, DL merger? Where is this eternal ALPA brotherhood of which you speak?

Yeah...USAPA really took care of that problem.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Kind of like tha West Captain that thought it was appropriate to give me a little "nudge" in the van in DFW a couple of weeks ago? Those kind of thugs? At least the F/O was nice about it, as was the lead F/A that came down to the bar and apologized.

This sounds fictional.

Even if its true...which I doubt it is...I can give you examples of East crews giving our guys the middle finger as they taxi by. I can give examples of East crews leaving the West crews at the curb waiting for the hotel vans. I can give you examples of East crews taking West bags off the van and leaving those on the curb. I can give countless examples of East crews giving our guys dirty looks in the terminal.

I'm not saying the West guys aren't doing stuff, too. But based on the 2:1 ratio of pilots its safe to say that the East guys are doing this crap twice as often.

 

[Bad-Andy]

But Andy, why didn't you show them your ALPA pin and Lanyard? Or were you sporting one of those sweet yellow ones....?

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride. (Although, I must admit, even after the discussion comes up and I defended ALPA, no one booted me...) Normally I would switch back to my blue one when I commuted in and wear that one while working. But, make no mistake, I don't hide from my decision or my vote, regardless of what color lanyard I wear...

The funny thing about this whole incident is that while it bothered me greatly at first, it may serve a greater purpose -- it made me realize that neither side is absolutely in the right, and both have some serious faults that we'll need to overcome if we want to survive as a company. If I were in your (the West's) shoes, I believe I would just sit back and watch. In the end, you will probably be vindicated (the List will stand), but at what cost?

The phrase "cutting off my nose to spite my face" comes to mind. That's my only point. For all the name calling and insulting I've seen on these boards (and in person in the vans in DFW, BWI, ORD), there are still a lot of good (reasonable) people on both sides of the Mississippi that want to see this place succeed. The handful that want to burn it all down based on one decision or another (Nic List or the USAPA vote) are more alike than they are different. Those are the guys (again, on both sides) that I want to see try and go get another job, especially in this environment. Good luck with that........

 

[Bad-Andy]

This sounds fictional.

Even if its true...which I doubt it is...I can give you examples of East crews giving our guys the middle finger as they taxi by. I can give examples of East crews leaving the West crews at the curb waiting for the hotel vans. I can give you examples of East crews taking West bags off the van and leaving those on the curb. I can give countless examples of East crews giving our guys dirty looks in the terminal.

Trust me, it is not fictional. I wish it was. As for the East crews doing those sorts of things to West crews, I have no doubt that those things are every bit as true. I make no claim that the guys on either side are angels. That is the absurd, idiotic behavior that I was refering to above. We would all be better off without all of those guys (both East and West). My only point is that not all the East guys are "thugs" (as it was put), and neither are all of the West guys innocent "victims." In a civilized world, we deal with problems when they arise as two civilized adults, not as neanderthalic cavemen.

Oh well.... Maybe our next jobs will be better.....

 

[Freight Dog]

Look JT8D... don't use my opinions of ALPA to further your cause of trying to justify that USAPA abortion.

You wanted DOH and DOH alone. You didn't get it; you wanted arbitration. The result didn't come the way you wanted, so you mob-imposed your will upon another pilot group that rescued you from certain doom by using sheer numbers in an attempt to rewrite the seniority list as you see fit.

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

This whole thing could move forward...even under USAPA...if you would just drop the DOH issue and accept the binding award that you agreed to in the first place.

I know alot of West pilots were not pro ALPA. But all West pilots are not pro USAPA because USAPA's mission statement is to take away our seniority. That's our main concern right now. We'd be willing to participate with and make USAPA a stong viable union if we thought our intrests were being represented.

I can only speak for myself but I have talked to a bunch of our guys and I get the impression that many of the West pilots would be fine with fences. But we are not willing to budge on seniority. The only way seniority will change is if the West pilots agree to change it...and we wont. (And no...USAPA can't just change it because the majority East pilots will vote for it...it doesn't work that way).

When USAPA quits threatening my seniority we'll move forward.

 

[get2flyin]

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

Bingo! We have a winner.

I think you would have been hard pressed to find fanatic ALPA supporters out West before the representation election. In fact, one of my fears if ALPA won the election was they would have mis-interpreted the results and thought they had carte blanche membership support to do whatever they wanted. But given USAPA's goals, ALPA started looking pretty sweet.

 

[Bad-Andy]

When USAPA quits threatening my seniority we'll move forward.

Hopefully that day come sooner, rather than later.....

 

[get2flyin]

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride. (Although, I must admit, even after the discussion comes up and I defended ALPA, no one booted me...) Normally I would switch back to my blue one when I commuted in and wear that one while working. But, make no mistake, I don't hide from my decision or my vote, regardless of what color lanyard I wear...

But you do hide from your decision. You wear a yellow lanyard. If you don't believe in either cause...wear a Dallas Cowboys lanyard or something else. I use a piece of thin climbing rope for a lanyard except when I go to Philly. I switch to the ALPA one for that day because I love seeing the USAPA lovers try to intimidate me with stares. It's just all so childish that it's laughable. So that's exactly what I do, laugh at them.

As far a shove in the van, that's not acceptable. PERIOD. I'm not so foolish that I'd say it didn't happen nor am I so fanatic that I'd say it could ever be justified. But you certainly can't say that sort of thing doesn't go in both directions.

 

[MCDU]

Why are you Scabs out west so worried. You still have your flying and no Easthole has taken anything away from you. You still are flying in your bases and your planes. Could it be that this PFT generation at AWA wants the quick upgrade the EAST offers in the coming years with a very old pilot group or is the furlough cushion of almost 1000 pilots?
The scabs out west are going to be allowed what they can hold with their DOH in our East bases. Why don't you all just stop whining and accept what you brought to the table. LAS, PHX and a little over 100 planes.
It must be frustrating not cashing in something that does not belong to you.

By the way, tell one of your Capt. is last name starts with Angel...and then add a vowel, that he is noted for not letting our crew members commute home on the PHL SFO leg about a week ago. Pretty low not allowing some one from getting home. The pathetic lanyard excuse does not come in to play this time. I hope they fire his loser ass for creating a hostile work environment.

I hope they sell off the West to Mesa. Both are a good fit.

Marty

 

[PositiveRate]

Look JT8D... don't use my opinions of ALPA to further your cause of trying to justify that USAPA abortion.

You wanted DOH and DOH alone. You didn't get it; you wanted arbitration. The result didn't come the way you wanted, so you mob-imposed your will upon another pilot group that rescued you from certain doom by using sheer numbers in an attempt to rewrite the seniority list as you see fit.

I may hate ALPA, but to me, what USAPA is doing is equivalent of scabbing which most of us hate way worse than ALPA.

AMEN!!

Yes, I was sporting the yellow one. I commute on East metal, and found it was a lot easier to just wear the yellow one and not worry about a ride.

I take back my thank you for your ALPA vote. So much for standing on principal...all that does is show weakness.

Regardless, the shove is unacceptable, but just to reiterate, this is happening on both sides of the fence with unfortunate regularity and it goes nowhere but bad places.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Why are you Scabs out west so worried. You still have your flying and no Easthole has taken anything away from you.

except your union representation...only to be replaced with a generous THREE committee positions, out of 70+.

The scabs out west are going to be allowed what they can hold with their DOH in our East bases.

I don't know why you're calling them scabs...
Keep on dreaming about DOH. The entire industry never gets tired of hearing it.

Why don't you all just stop whining and accept what you brought to the table. LAS, PHX and a little over 100 planes.

as opposed to the nearly liquidated company you brought to the table.

Another great example of USAPA reaching out to the west