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USAPA and the Domicile meeting for PHX/LAS

MCDU

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Dope,

how long did that take to dig up? You are now the official FI detective. Congrats.

Looks like some Loser has a little bit to much time on his hands. Now go back and do some more detective work.

Dope the FI nerd that spends all day doing FI research and FI postings.

Once again. Great job Dope. I bet your big brother is impressed at your research. Now, leave your room and go play. There is more to life then your obsession with Flightinfo.

Now, give a good response. I need a laugh.

M
 

Carl S.

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USAPA says that there are over 500 members from the West, but the bylaws were just changed so West members could actually become members without a PHX/LAS rep. elected. If it takes 30 days for these new bylaws to become effective, then there are no West members of the Cult till early Dec. and then the dues clocks starts. If this false, why the change to the bylaws and the response from Uncle Al H.?

P.S.- the only truths are what has been done in litigation so far and the Cult has only won the election thru a majority, nothing else.
 
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Fast43

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Yeah I just didn't jump on FI.com first thing Sunday morning, PHXFLYR. It's a character flaw.

I see no need in setting anything straight here. There is so much misinformation spewed on FI.com...why fight it?

I find this statement accurate, as many of the post you speak of come from you !!!!!

I know, I know.....you think you have all the facts straight. So proud of ya! Fight on, TruthMeister!

Actually its quite clear that you don't have access to any "facts" at all. Since all you parrot is was usapa tells you.


Fast


Fast.........
 

Fast43

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Dope,

how long did that take to dig up? You are now the official FI detective. Congrats.

Looks like some Loser has a little bit to much time on his hands. Now go back and do some more detective work.

Dope the FI nerd that spends all day doing FI research and FI postings.

Once again. Great job Dope. I bet your big brother is impressed at your research. Now, leave your room and go play. There is more to life then your obsession with Flightinfo.

Now, give a good response. I need a laugh.

M


Interesting that at no point in your "rebuttal" post did you rebut anything. Kind of a bitch when you get busted I guess.

Fast
 

PHXFLYR

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Yeah I just didn't jump on FI.com first thing Sunday morning, PHXFLYR. It's a character flaw.

Yeah, I noticed you seem to wait until lunchtime
instead. Wazzamatta ? Can't get your azz outta bed at a reasonable hour in the morning ?? :rolleyes:

I see no need in setting anything straight here. There is so much misinformation spewed on FI.com...why fight it?

You should be used to all the spewed misinformation , being a USAPA member and all...

I know, I know.....you think you have all the facts straight.


Compared to you and your buddy MCDU, I sure do.

So proud of ya!

Could really care less whether you are or not.

Fight on, TruthMeister!

Will do. After all someones gotta counter your 'Bullshiet'

Now go out and have a wonderful day.....:rolleyes:

PHXFLYR:cool:
 
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BeCareful!

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USAPA says that there are over 500 members from the West, but the bylaws were just changed so West members could actually become members without a PHX/LAS rep. elected. If it takes 30 days for these new bylaws to become effective, then there are no West members of the Cult till early Dec. and then the dues clocks starts. If this false, why the change to the bylaws and the response from Uncle Al H.?

P.S.- the only truths are what has been done in litigation so far and the Cult has only won the election thru a majority, nothing else.


Carl S., and PHXPLYR

I'm really sorry you guys have such a lack of understanding, or that you choose to live your life on the Internet in a fog of the misinformation you've decided to brew your anger and hatred in.

Prior to September, USAPA had accepted 643 West pilots as members. There's no BS in this....this is verified. Most were dues objectors.

Carl, the changes to the bylaws were only to clear up the enforcement of section 29, and that's what A.H. was talking about, not the process of becoming a member. That process has resulted in, as I said, 643 West members as of September and who knows how many of them since then. So, you're wrong, and no matter how you word it here on FI.com to try to fool the 25 pilots who give a crap about this issue and actually read this drivel, it doesn't make what you're saying correct.

Everything USAPA has done has been by the letter of the law. The company, too, is in compliance so far, at least as far as how they've interpreted the TA. I was pissed that the furloughs got handled out of seniority (DOH) east vs. west, and I immediately called my reps to let them know. Lot's of us did, and that's one reason a greivance has been filed on the issue.

Here on FI.com things are so "west" in appearance. You guys seem to have more time wasters with the beliefe that posting here is going to change something. I only do it while sitting reserve :)

But the facts are the facts. 643 as of September. Fact.
 

Carl S.

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Usapa says that there are 500+ members out West, but the West legal team says we can not be members till we get a rep. to vote us in or the CBL's change and that is what has occurred and AH agrees, now we wait for the NMB Arb. to decide, but the change in CBL's tends to make us think your legal sees a loop hole that we have exploited that you now have plugged, but lost the cash.

If you find FI too West, go to USAVIATION, it is pro East, just like CNN or FOX, pick your spin. All I ask is to seek other info then USAPA updates or you will be disappointed in the legal results from all the pending litigation just like the Nic. award and how the East's expectations were controlled.


P.S.-last time I check, dues objectors were not considered members. I would call my Rep. also, but PHX does not have one and Bradford thinks someone out West will believe DOH and step up(6 months and counting).
 
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get2flyin

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Carl S., and PHXPLYR

I'm really sorry you guys have such a lack of understanding, or that you choose to live your life on the Internet in a fog of the misinformation you've decided to brew your anger and hatred in.

Prior to September, USAPA had accepted 643 West pilots as members. There's no BS in this....this is verified. Most were dues objectors.

Carl, the changes to the bylaws were only to clear up the enforcement of section 29, and that's what A.H. was talking about, not the process of becoming a member. That process has resulted in, as I said, 643 West members as of September and who knows how many of them since then. So, you're wrong, and no matter how you word it here on FI.com to try to fool the 25 pilots who give a crap about this issue and actually read this drivel, it doesn't make what you're saying correct.

Everything USAPA has done has been by the letter of the law. The company, too, is in compliance so far, at least as far as how they've interpreted the TA. I was pissed that the furloughs got handled out of seniority (DOH) east vs. west, and I immediately called my reps to let them know. Lot's of us did, and that's one reason a greivance has been filed on the issue.

Here on FI.com things are so "west" in appearance. You guys seem to have more time wasters with the beliefe that posting here is going to change something. I only do it while sitting reserve :)

But the facts are the facts. 643 as of September. Fact.

Really? Are you sure that 643 West pilots were members? How is that possible if the USAPA constitution requires new members to be approved by their local council and PHX and LAS had no local council?

Furthermore...after USAPA tried to fire 4 West pilots for non-payment of membership dues, the company AGREED with the West pilots that they couldn't be terminated for non-payment of dues to a union they had not been accepted into. That is why your USAPA buddies amended YOUR constitution to allow membership approval by the MEC instead of the LEC ONE WEEK AGO TODAY, 11/10. Don't believe me? Call you rep again and ask why they changed it if it we were already members.

All sarcasm aside, if you are being honest about calling your rep to voice a concern about West pilots being furloughed before your off the street 190 jockeys, I sincerely appreciate the effort. But contrary to what they may have told you, no grievance has been filed. The West pilots went to USAPA and tried to file a grievance, but they were told there wasn't a compeling case. Have you noticed a pattern of telling EVERYBODY a different answer to the same question, depending on what suits them best? THAT, my friend, is why the West pilots are trying to eliminate USAPA.
 

BeCareful!

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get2flyin,

I am being perfectly honest. I believe USAPA must behave in a manner consistant with it's stated purpose, which is to represent us all. So far, I have found no evidence to the contrary (since I do not consider Internet rants to be factual evidence.) But that the company was allowed to do this is a travesty, and trust me, they are doing it this way in order to further divide us. It's the most often run play in their playbook.

Having said this, I will look into the grievance that was supposed to be filed. Suspiciously not mentioned on the website right now, even though I'm sure there was mention of it in a recent update.

I'll be at the crewroom meeting in PHL tomorrow and I will get answers and post them when I can. If you're there and I'm wrong, the Burbon Chicken is on me.

BC
 

Carl S.

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Can you tell me when the PHX crewroom meeting will be? Seems that the USAPA braintrust was in PHX and forgot to hold one, please ask. Also ask about section 29 for East members that are members of USAPA or not members, would hate for that to be the next hold up in my eventual check to USAPA(Because USAPA represents and prosecutes the East and West the same....NOT!)
 
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Fast43

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get2flyin,

I am being perfectly honest. I believe USAPA must behave in a manner consistant with it's stated purpose, which is to represent us all.
BC


Since your being honest. I'll ask you an honest question.

Do you believe the DOH list with it's conditions and restrictions. Is consistant with representing ALL LCC pilots fairly.?

To be fair I should mention that at the Oct 29th Court hearing the Judge after hearing an explanation of the C & R's usapa wants, he described it as a Pure Win for the east and a Pure Loss for the west. How would that be considered representing everyone fairly??

Are you suprised that you didn't hear that bit of info in the usapa update?


Fast
 

Guppiedriver

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BeCareful,

Since you are a facts finding mission, ask the USAPians how any west pilot could be a member when the C&BL's state(d) that all members must be accepted by a domicile rep. Please read the C&BL's yourself, as I think you will find the answer to this question before you ask your leadership.
 

BeCareful!

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BeCareful,

Since you are a facts finding mission, ask the USAPians how any west pilot could be a member when the C&BL's state(d) that all members must be accepted by a domicile rep. Please read the C&BL's yourself, as I think you will find the answer to this question before you ask your leadership.

Guppie,

Good question and here are the facts. The 643 west pilots were accepted as members the exact same way the most of the east pilots were accepted as members upon initial start up of the union. On day one, there were no domicile reps to vote in all the new members, so they were accepted automatically. This procedure is widely used in circumstances like these.

The C&BLs have only been amended to make an alternate procedure perfectly clear because the west seems to be trying to invent new ways to proclaim that USAPA is somehow not abiding by the laws and regulations that cover this sort of thing.
 

BeCareful!

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Since your being honest. I'll ask you an honest question.

Do you believe the DOH list with it's conditions and restrictions. Is consistant with representing ALL LCC pilots fairly.?

To be fair I should mention that at the Oct 29th Court hearing the Judge after hearing an explanation of the C & R's usapa wants, he described it as a Pure Win for the east and a Pure Loss for the west. How would that be considered representing everyone fairly??

Are you suprised that you didn't hear that bit of info in the usapa update?


Fast


No, not surprised. Yes, I believe DOH is fair. I think the judge's comments are one man's opinion, and I don't know the full context of them (only what I'm reading here on the Internet.) I would only view DOH with C&Rs as a loss to the west in reference to the Nicolau "award." That private ALPA2ALPA arbitration was such a windfall that it caused the east pilot group to wake up....and that, friends, is quite a feat. US Air pilots have thus far been some of the most apathetic blue collar bubbas in all of aviation. It took something as utterly stupid as Nicolau's "award" to wake them up to the piss poor job ALPA had been doing for them.

But that "award" is not the starting point from which you guys can now judge everything. It's not being used, and for the good of the company I hope it never does. You need to look at the reality of today, the reality of your powerful west coast bases, the reality that even with DOH+C&Rs you'll eventually have access to flying that was never, ever going to be a part of AWA's portfolio absent this merger. It would probably be helpful, while your looking at all this reality, if you'd get over the notion that anyone "saved" anyone by listening to your leadership out there the next time they tell you that the merge was a necessity for both airlines, and that outside capital funded it. I think it will be about the 20th time they've said it; I usually don't drink the mgt coolaid either, but in this case it might be best to take their word for it and move on.
 

PHXFLYR

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So DOH is fair? That means if I get hired at Airline A , only to get furloughed a year and a half later for a period of lets say 8 years;during which time my company gets purchased by Airline B, I should get credit for my company imposed exile? Is that what you're implying ? You don't want a seniority list. You want a longevity list where you get credit from day one whether your on the property or furloughed . Ain't gonna happen....


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
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Guppiedriver

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Guppie,

Good question and here are the facts. The 643 west pilots were accepted as members the exact same way the most of the east pilots were accepted as members upon initial start up of the union. On day one, there were no domicile reps to vote in all the new members, so they were accepted automatically. This procedure is widely used in circumstances like these.

The C&BLs have only been amended to make an alternate procedure perfectly clear because the west seems to be trying to invent new ways to proclaim that USAPA is somehow not abiding by the laws and regulations that cover this sort of thing.

Hmm..... Isn't USAPA trying to invent new ways to proclaim that they don't have to abide by the binding arbitration?

I don't care what your interpretation of the C&BL's is, I just want you to read them. The company already sided with the west on this issue and USAPA had to make amendments. Expect more of the same.

It's funny reading your post that sells DOH to us. Oh gee, a 1991 hire at AWA, that is a captain, could fly to Europe on a 767 out of PHL..........................................................................................as a first officer! No thanks, we already have a seniority list.

If nothing else, you junior easties are predictable.
 
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Fast43

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No, not surprised. Yes, I believe DOH is fair. I think the judge's comments are one man's opinion, and I don't know the full context of them (only what I'm reading here on the Internet.) I would only view DOH with C&Rs as a loss to the west in reference to the Nicolau "award." That private ALPA2ALPA arbitration was such a windfall that it caused the east pilot group to wake up....and that, friends, is quite a feat. US Air pilots have thus far been some of the most apathetic blue collar bubbas in all of aviation. It took something as utterly stupid as Nicolau's "award" to wake them up to the piss poor job ALPA had been doing for them.

But that "award" is not the starting point from which you guys can now judge everything. It's not being used, and for the good of the company I hope it never does. You need to look at the reality of today, the reality of your powerful west coast bases, the reality that even with DOH+C&Rs you'll eventually have access to flying that was never, ever going to be a part of AWA's portfolio absent this merger. It would probably be helpful, while your looking at all this reality, if you'd get over the notion that anyone "saved" anyone by listening to your leadership out there the next time they tell you that the merge was a necessity for both airlines, and that outside capital funded it. I think it will be about the 20th time they've said it; I usually don't drink the mgt coolaid either, but in this case it might be best to take their word for it and move on.


So we can be clear. The current accepted list that was generated by a process agreed to by all parties at the time. Is the Nicolau list. It was accepted the same day it was recieved by the Company. So if usapa wants to change it. They are obligated to abide by their Duty of Fair Representation to all pilots members or not, to do so fairly. Case law shows that a union can not favor the majority at the expense of the minority. The Judge after hearing an explaination of the list C & R's and all, remarked that it was a pure win for the east and a pure loss for the west. So how will usapa get this past a DFR challenge even if the Nic list is found to not be binding. I'm sure usapa will say that's just his opinion but, it is his that counts.

Fast
 

Bringupthebird

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Can you tell me when the PHX crewroom meeting will be? Seems that the USAPA braintrust was in PHX and forgot to hold one, please ask. Also ask about section 29 for East members that are members of USAPA or not members, would hate for that to be the next hold up in my eventual check to USAPA(Because USAPA represents and prosecutes the East and West the same....NOT!)

Crewroom meetings? Wasn't the west MEC chairman told to leave the crewroom in CLT (or was it PHL?) prior to USAPA and that crewrooms were company property and not permissable for union business? Now the company is allowing USAPA to hold meetings in the crewroom?

Rumor has it that Parker just named his new Yorkie puppy Bradford, and he gets to sleep inside too.
 

Soulfly

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BeCareful, you are really missing the fundamental issue here.

The "Nic" was a process agreed to by both parties, and it is a legal binding document. I don't care what you think, that is the law. It is the cornerstone of business in the this country. If it was just a nifty looking package of papers it already would have been thrown in the trash, and USAPA would have gotten you your new shiny contract in two weeks like they promised.
Also, DOH was not part of ALPA merger policy at the time. It was removed, in part by actions taken by the AAA pilots. So how in the world would one expect to receive something that isn't part of the deal. By signing the agreement to arbitration, the East MEC put their fate into the arbitrators hands, not by force, but willingly.

And just by changing representation does not make that decision null and void. Period.

And I have a friend that is an east pilot, 99 hire, and my friends and I get the real deal coming from USAPA, right from him, so I am not uninformed. Just furloughed out of seniority order.

Let the stupidity continue........
 
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get2flyin

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get2flyin,

I am being perfectly honest. I believe USAPA must behave in a manner consistant with it's stated purpose, which is to represent us all. So far, I have found no evidence to the contrary (since I do not consider Internet rants to be factual evidence.) But that the company was allowed to do this is a travesty, and trust me, they are doing it this way in order to further divide us. It's the most often run play in their playbook.

Having said this, I will look into the grievance that was supposed to be filed. Suspiciously not mentioned on the website right now, even though I'm sure there was mention of it in a recent update.

I'll be at the crewroom meeting in PHL tomorrow and I will get answers and post them when I can. If you're there and I'm wrong, the Burbon Chicken is on me.

BC

BC~ Looks like you won't be buying me any Bourbon Chicken today. I just spoke with one on my "reps" *(no, not a USAPA member, a guy who actually "represents" West pilots) and he tells me you are (gulp) correct...but your facts are a little skewed. There was initially NO grievance, but one was filled after USAPA was sued for DFR. My source tells me, "They(USAPA) have made no public communications about the matter, and according to company sources, they never even complained about it." That's why there isn't any comment on the USAPA web board....much like there wasn't any notice of the PHX USAPA meeting. It isn't the transparent organization they'd like you to believe. Bottom line, your East brothers are holding out on you.

Regardless, while the grievance was eventually filed, nothing has happened that would indicate "our" so called "union" is doing much to intercede in the current furlough methodology. The second round of furloughs occurred 11/1 and as of today, 98 West pilots are unemployed. How many do you have East of the Mississippi?

If you get a chance, ask your Rep when USAPA might be pursuing that grievance. Thanks for following up on that....
 
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