USAirways Furloughs

[Lampshade]

If the company loses the RJ arb. they will just remove the offending rj's from the schedule and apologize for there lack of oversight and maybe some $. They probably won't get Airbus/737 back from the leassor's to cover those routes.

If the company loses both the RJ arb and the Block hour arb then you could see a positive shake up in the staffing.

The only way sure fired way to see recalls is to get the East off LOA 93 and get on to a modern contract with better work rules/days off/vacation and not flying 90 hour lines, that will require at least a 3% increase in pilot staffing. But USAPA is not motivated to get off LOA 93...so here we sit.

 

[Tweaker]

Hmmmmm world wide recession bordering on depression, 140k jobs lost in a week and you think their will be a recall at the worst positioned airline in the industry?

I would expect to see more furloughs for the next year or so. The "summer ramp up" will be very small this year. Who the hell can afford to go on vacation and what company in the US is going to increase spending for conventions or business travel.

I do, and obviously I put money on it.

Worst positioned? Check your altimeter setting, homes. International revenue is plummeting, domestic is whupping ass. No one saw it coming, but US Steel has gotten lucky in that regard. They gots cash, they don't pay anyone anything close to industry pay rates. I would ask for you to specify the negative position, but I believe you have not done enough research/contemplation. I know you are a bright guy, I enjoy reading your posts.

Everybody else "gets it." I am not saying that the pilot groups (and ther are very much still 2) will hug it out.

What I am saying is that when it becomes apparent that your cause is lost in fighting your brother, the only reasonable course is to rebuild and fight for what are now mutual goals.

I do think that a judge will make this clear to either the leadership or most likely the pilots of the losing side. The weak link is hoping for them to be "reasonable."

Notice I did not get specific. I have my opinions, but it affects me not at all, and I do not wish to initiate another poop fling-fest.

 

[reepicheep]

If the company loses the RJ arb. they will just remove the offending rj's from the schedule and apologize for there lack of oversight and maybe some $. They probably won't get Airbus/737 back from the leassor's to cover those routes.

If the company loses both the RJ arb and the Block hour arb then you could see a positive shake up in the staffing.

The only way sure fired way to see recalls is to get the East off LOA 93 and get on to a modern contract with better work rules/days off/vacation and not flying 90 hour lines, that will require at least a 3% increase in pilot staffing. But USAPA is not motivated to get off LOA 93...so here we sit.

I think you're right....I hear a lot of opinions that a victory on the rj grievance means recalls and I don't buy it either. You would have to prove conclusively that the 18 large rj overage directly resulted in furloughs. In essence you'd have the burden of proving the company transferred mainline jobs to the rj's. This is a whole different ballgame than merely showing they've been exceeding the limit of airframes.

 

[psw757]

Loa 93 clearly states the limit is 93 airframes for large rj's. there is clear evidence that there are 111 large rj's being operated. It's not that this overage caused the furloughs because this has been going on since long before the furloughs. it is hard to believe the company will just say oops and get rid of the rj's and not replace the flying. 18 aircraft is a big chunk of northeast express ops that is flown by 170s,175s and crj-900. We'll see what happens.

 

[reepicheep]

Sorry but after 25 years in this business I'm pretty skeptical about any success stories via this process.

My guess is in this environment there's no way in he!! they're bringing back mainline hulls & pilots. They'll either eliminate a bunch of marginal markets they were about to vacate anyway, or replace the large rj's with smaller types that don't
violate the contract.

 

[Lampshade]

The US Airways and America West collective bargaining agreements will be
modified to allow for a combined maximum of ninety-three (93) CRJ-900, or
other aircraft within the seating and maximum take-off weight limits specified in
Paragraph B above, to be operated in revenue service at any given time at Express
Carriers except that for every two (2) aircraft in excess of the combined 360
aircraft (excluding EMB 190 aircraft) operated at both US Airways and America
West, that are added to revenue service in the mainline fleet, the Company may
allow three (3) additional CRJ-900, or other aircraft within the seating and
maximum take-off weight limits specified in paragraph B above, to be operated in
revenue service at Express Carriers.

1. US Airways were allowed to go over 93 RJ's if the mainline went over 360 which it did for a while, so their's the excuse. "We reducing the fleet so it will take awhile to reduce the RJ's"

2. "to be operated in revenue service" means "hey we're not over the scope by 18 rj's, there just spares!"

They always have so BS, just wait for it.

 

[BUDDHA145]

hmmm!!! I see what you mean...always management interpretaing contracts and agreements their way...or toilet papper!!!!

 

[m80drvr]

Are we helping Kirby manage some expectations now? Too bad ALPA's gone, because with talk like that the old CLT reps likely would have invited you to a little mountain retreat and loved you up. And I'm not talking some Deliverance, backwoods stuff, I'm talkin' a real nice rub down, a good glass of wine....you know. Lance down there in CLT would just love the way you're babbling on....worst positioned airline....oh....that makes him sooooooo HOT!!!

Wow what planet are you living on....really?

Oh yeah this whole recession thing is something Parker and Kirby cooked up to keep you working under LOA93. Those guys sure are smart......

Damn you esat guys have got to step out from under the rock once and a while.

 

[m80drvr]

I do, and obviously I put money on it.

Worst positioned? Check your altimeter setting, homes. International revenue is plummeting, domestic is whupping ass. No one saw it coming, but US Steel has gotten lucky in that regard. They gots cash, they don't pay anyone anything close to industry pay rates. I would ask for you to specify the negative position, but I believe you have not done enough research/contemplation. I know you are a bright guy, I enjoy reading your posts.

Everybody else "gets it." I am not saying that the pilot groups (and ther are very much still 2) will hug it out.

What I am saying is that when it becomes apparent that your cause is lost in fighting your brother, the only reasonable course is to rebuild and fight for what are now mutual goals.

I do think that a judge will make this clear to either the leadership or most likely the pilots of the losing side. The weak link is hoping for them to be "reasonable."

Notice I did not get specific. I have my opinions, but it affects me not at all, and I do not wish to initiate another poop fling-fest.

Please point out the last recession that USAirways actually did well in........... AAA has been in the brink for DECADES what makes you think this will be any different?

Ps Intl is way down but so is domestic demand. Yes the large "regional" airline is and continues to be the worst positioned airline in the industry. It's an LCC with legacy costs.

 

[reepicheep]

No managing of expectations; just look at reality.

The airline is pretty much back where it was in '03, or 1991 for that matter. Out of control unit costs that dwarf all the competition, a Western operation that's completely incable of competing with Southwest, and an airline that's hardly the "carrier of choice". And Bk can't be far ahead unless things turn around in a hurry. We've all seen this act before; what's different this time?

I'd plan on an indefinite furlough, certainly not recalls.

 

[m80drvr]

Sorry but after 25 years in this business I'm pretty skeptical about any success stories via this process.

My guess is in this environment there's no way in he!! they're bringing back mainline hulls & pilots. They'll either eliminate a bunch of marginal markets they were about to vacate anyway, or replace the large rj's with smaller types that don't
violate the contract.

That will be the outcome. USAirways has never been afraid to "shrink to profitability". He!! that's the old USAir mantra unfortunately that and a complete disregared for employees and their contracts has now infected Parker and the Tempe Tombstone.

They will just park the jets. They will not lease more airbuses just to recall that furloughs. That would cost way too much and someone would have to justify whay their were furloughs in the first place.

Recalls won't happen. Maybe the block hour thing will help but I doubt that also.

 

[m80drvr]

No managing of expectations; just look at reality.

The airline is pretty much back where it was in '03, or 1991 for that matter. Out of control unit costs that dwarf all the competition, a Western operation that's completely incable of competing with Southwest, and an airline that's hardly the "carrier of choice". And Bk can't be far ahead unless things turn around in a hurry. We've all seen this act before; what's different this time?

I'd plan on an indefinite furlough, certainly not recalls.

I kills me that some think this is all a negotiating ploy to "manage expectations"

LOOK AT THE PAST 30YEARS OF USAIR'S EXISTANCE. NOTHING HAS CHANGED EXCEPT THE PAINT ON THE AIRPLANES.

 

[reepicheep]

I kills me that some think this is all a negotiating ploy to "manage expectations"

LOOK AT THE PAST 30YEARS OF USAIR'S EXISTANCE. NOTHING HAS CHANGED EXCEPT THE PAINT ON THE AIRPLANES.

Well, in fairness I'd say 20 years. Prior to that they seemed to be sitting pretty. Then two mergers that didn't make any sense; done only to fend off a takeover. And no vision. Ordered F100's and 737's. Built up small-town PIT. No interest in big airplanes or international 'till it was way too late. Look at airlines like Delta and American in the early 80's. Not much international either. They bet big and look where they are today.

 

[m80drvr]

Well, in fairness I'd say 20 years. Prior to that they seemed to be sitting pretty. Then two mergers that didn't make any sense; done only to fend off a takeover. And no vision. Ordered F100's and 737's. Built up small-town PIT. No interest in big airplanes or international 'till it was way too late. Look at airlines like Delta and American in the early 80's. Not much international either. They bet big and look where they are today.

Point taken, 20 years of history. Who says history doesn't repeat itself.


Just one quick point. Prior to the merger AWA was completely capable of competing with SWA. They were hiring pilots with planes on order. I'm not trying to rehash the who saved who argument just pointing out that they were doing well, No, AWA wasn't an intl. powerhouse but they were expanding. But when the high unit costs of the east were spread over the combined company you began to see the west unable to compete with SWA. Then the high oil prices arrived and no one could compete.

Then again USAir’s high costs are most likely a management ploy.

.

 

[Turtle21]

... I'm not trying to rehash the who saved who argument ....

Don't kid yourself. You will be rehashing that argument when you are in a rocker on the front porch long after you retire. And ain't no one's mind gonna be changed between now and then.