USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because the first life boat is going the wrong direction.

So why not work on that direction. You haven't shown that the new boat is going in any direction? It is easier to change direction then get everyone into a new boat...

I have done my share. I have volunteered, participated and invested the time only to see each issue of concern go south.

Then maybe that is a refection of you or your expectations....

And after ALPA polls and surveys its members with scientific accuracy and the majority say go this way, ALPA says they know better and goes the opposite way. Age 60 clearly shows ALPA using that ME ruler you describe.

There is reasoning that you don't want to address.

What makes you so sure ALPA is not the problem?

I never said ALPA didn't have problems.. what I am saying is you don't have solutions...or theones you have are not pragmatic...

That boat sailed. Now ALPA needs to pay the price of that failure.

And what is that price?

Membership maturity is not the issue. Mature members have many strips on their backs with the scars to prove ALPA's abuse.

What...you are oppressed slaves? Give it up and control your career man.....

And a fresh start is a wonderful place to begin.

Fine... but that is a false consciousness....

Your fresh start is going to take more work that if you just cleaned up the current place.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Or the leadership inflicting those beatings is removed for just cause because ALPA is a beating machine.

And you are a victim....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA is not a democratic organization. ALPA is an oligopoly trying to be all things to all members while in reality only serving those that are in Herdon.

Hyberbole. ALPA is not a democracy cause no one shows up to particapte. Democracy rates are minority numbers....

No ALPA has completely screwed everyone within +-5 years of my date of hire and demographic to the benefit of those that have just retired or are about to retire.

We have all goteen screwed. EVERY pilot that was working on 9/11 has gotten screwed. Even the new CFI's that got hired last week are getting screwed... they are just too happy to know it...

Get off your ME ME ME.... attitude...

And ALPA as an organization is unwilling to make a stand for its members if that stand should ever undermine ALPA's empire.

For which members? Those guys over there? What about these guys.....

This is democracy.....

And that real skill you refer too is political paralysis that makes the ALPA such poison for the membership.

It is called the reality of trying t make 60,000 pilots happy...

ALPA leadership has repeatedly left the truth at the curb so much for so long ALPA leadership doesn't even recognize truth any longer.

And where did the ALPA leadership come from? This current problem is DW's fault for not connecting with the membership and not even having a webpage for his relection.. he thought he had it in the bag.

It is the UAL guys faults for trying to run thier phcuk stick Bathurst into the VP spot...

It is the memberships fault for apathy until thier world implodes then they are so stupid all they know how to do is play the blame game... as we are now..

ALPA has become so political it has reduced it self to that of a government official or more like a used car sales man.

That vatican has become so catholic....

The United States has become so american....

ALPA doesn't care about people. ALPA cares about ALPA.

Translated... ALPA cares about the collective intrests. Trying to function for 60,000 pilots is not easy. Probelm is those interests aren"t necessarily your intrests.. so you call BS...


Those refusing to particapte in politics will be ruled by thier inferiors....

 

[PHXFLYR]

ALPA has 60,000 members... AOPA has 412,000. Do the math. In addition, AOPA members want to fly J-3 cubs and get $100 hamburgers (dramatized for effect).

ALPA members want to feed thier family...and pay the mortgage.....


Get it?

Yup.Sure do. And to be quite honest with you I did much better doing all the above flying that non-union non sked DC8 as an F/O than I am flying that ALPA represented 737 as a Capt. You ever get tired of being National's personel boot licker,Mark?

PHXFLYR

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Hyberbole. ALPA is not a democracy cause no one shows up to particapte. Democracy rates are minority numbers....

We are in agreement. A minority of special interests rules ALPA to the exclusion of the average member.

We have all goteen screwed. EVERY pilot that was working on 9/11 has gotten screwed. Even the new CFI's that got hired last week are getting screwed... they are just too happy to know it...

Did the Delta pilot who retired early with his pension, lump sum and annuity, while green slipping the last two years making over $400,000 a year get screwed or was it the 1700 furloughed? The 1700 furloughed provided the senior DAL pilot those last two years with a big pay check and a big pension.

The senior guy took his big money, big pension, and went to work as an expat if he even wanted to go back to work to begin with while the furloughed pilot tried to survive probably without flying as a pilot.

We didn't ALL get screwed. Just those that were forced to stay or furloughed that paid for the senior ALPA members mistakes as the senior pilots at DAL, US Air, UAL, NWA, etc. left a few years early.

It is called the reality of trying t make 60,000 pilots happy...

ALPA doesn't try to make 60,000 pilots happy. ALPA tries to leverage 60,000 pilots dues, pac contributions, survey results, and letter writing to make 1000 pilots happy.

And where did the ALPA leadership come from?

The waste tank of the lav truck!

Translated... ALPA cares about the collective interests.

India is a democracy. India collectively provides for its citizens while dividing them into five caste systems from birth keeping them all down by various degrees to support the leaderships supreme lifestyle.

1000 happy campers with 59,000 slaves.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We are in agreement. A minority of special interests rules ALPA to the exclusion of the average member.

This is where you responses go south..... you simply cannot argure that apathetic members are a part of the problem... becuase that would require you to look in the mirror....

Did the Delta pilot who retired early with his pension, lump sum and annuity, while green slipping the last two years making over $400,000 a year get screwed or was it the 1700 furloughed? The 1700 furloughed provided the senior DAL pilot those last two years with a big pay check and a big pension.

What would suggest?

The senior guy took his big money, big pension, and went to work as an expat if he even wanted to go back to work to begin with while the furloughed pilot tried to survive probably without flying as a pilot.

Oh... so you want a furlough guy with minimal time at the company to be closer to equality to a super senior guy. ?? I didn't realize you were a communist..

We didn't ALL get screwed. Just those that were forced to stay or furloughed that paid for the senior ALPA members mistakes as the senior pilots at DAL, US Air, UAL, NWA, etc. left a few years early.

Of course we didn't all get screwed... if we did then you wouldn't have an arguement. You couldn't point to another pilot and say... "See that guy... he is the reason I am in so much pain... it is his fault.."

ALPA doesn't try to make 60,000 pilots happy. ALPA tries to leverage 60,000 pilots dues, pac contributions, survey results, and letter writing to make 1000 pilots happy.

Prove it.

The waste tank of the lav truck!

As a communist who doesn't believe in democracy or particapting in deomcoracy, I can see how your arguements have no merit.

If you want to talk about lav trucks maybe you can apply somewhere, I'd rather talk about making the profession better..

India is a democracy. India collectively provides for its citizens while dividing them into five caste systems from birth keeping them all down by various degrees to support the leaderships supreme lifestyle.

And you want a communist style system, where everyone is equal. Where a guy that has been on property for one day has the same benefit as one who has worked for 20 years..

1000 happy campers with 59,000 slaves.

Let me guess.... you are one of the 59,000 who abhor the magical 1000. So you hate the 1000 to justify your position and actions...

All you have is hate and emotion. You bring nothing to the table but distractions and regression.

This is a mjor problem with union pilots. They do not understand how the system works and when they get screwed they spend so much time trying to convince others of action that is counter productive. Such as decertifying ALPA and starting new representation...

Hows your M.O. working for you? Is it getting better...??

 

[CitationLover]

Lucky has some great points.

One needs to look no further than the TWA/AA deal than to find where ALPA totally abandoned 2400 constituents. That wasn't an ALPA to ALPA merger. The TWA guys should have had the full support of this "60,000 member gorilla." ALPA did more to represent the Midwest pilots and their talks with the NPA then they did for the TWA pilots--and we're talking about Prater's ONE press release advising the NPA to consider joining ALPA.

Again--it's very hard to get behind ALPA when it comes to representational issues when they've tainted their own record with issues like Pan Am and now, quite blatantly, TWA.

stlflyguy

not only that but a former MEC chairman who became the bumbling, stumbling CEO who sold you down the river. you point at ALPA but some fingers should come back to the TWA MEC who failed to act. if you guys prove ALPA intentionally screwed you to bring back the APA through the 13 (or whatever it is) party lawsuit (which in and of itself shows the downright greed self indulged pilots exude as the infighting that goes on is downright hilarious: swapping attorneys, but others want to stay so they can feed the business to their attorney friends, etc.) then all the power to you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1000 happy campers with 59,000 slaves.

Here it is folks.....

this guy has 59,000 pilots on his side but he feels he is still powerless against 1000.

Why don't you quit complaining and man up. Control your career... the more you try and argue the more rediculous you sound.... if you can't politically control 1000 pilots with 59,000 then you must be clueless....

One needs to look no further than the TWA/AA deal than to find where ALPA totally abandoned 2400 constituents. That wasn't an ALPA to ALPA merger. The TWA guys should have had the full support of this "60,000 member gorilla." ALPA did more to represent the Midwest pilots and their talks with the NPA then they did for the TWA pilots--and we're talking about Prater's ONE press release advising the NPA to consider joining ALPA.

Don't forget the lawsuit also names the APA and AMR. Don't make it sound like ALPA is the big bad wolf here...

Again--it's very hard to get behind ALPA when it comes to representational issues when they've tainted their own record with issues like Pan Am and now, quite blatantly, TWA.

stlflyguy

That is becuase you are a one issue kinda guy. And the issue is you. It is hard for guys like you to be objective..... You are all about you. So when "you" doesn't go the way you want you get pissed.....

 

[737 Pylt]

Yup.Sure do. And to be quite honest with you I did much better doing all the above flying that non-union non sked DC8 as an F/O than I am flying that ALPA represented 737 as a Capt. You ever get tired of being National's personel boot licker,Mark?

PHXFLYR

Yuri:
Don't you ever get tired of running your nut drainer about how much you make as a 737 captain??
At $135/hr for 10 year captain, its not much to brag about! But it is better than your counterparts at LCC east.
I apologize, you may now get back to your leather chaps and HPilot!:blush: :laugh:

737

 

[PCL_128]

What Rez fails to mention is the facts that have lead to poor member participation. Those being the continual disregard, disenfranchisement, and disrespect for the members by the leadership.

Not true in the slightest. A couple of years ago, ALPA's leadership was concerned with low membership participation. It had become the "conventional wisdom" that this was a relatively new phenomenon. So, ALPA went back and examined records from the early days of the Association all the way through today. What did they find? That membership participation is no worse today than it was in ALPA's infancy. In other words, ALPA's membership has always been willfully ignorant and irresponsible. It's not a result of anything that the ALPA leadership has done. It's simply the result of a group of people that refuse to take responsibility for their own careers, whether it's this generation of pilots or the first generation of pilots.

Stop trying to blame ALPA for your own irresponsibility. Take some ownership of your career.

 

[Captain X]

IMHO: Decertifying ALPA on USAirways

"Hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

I believe that USAirways leaving ALPA will only serve to weaken the profession, overall labor movement, and USAirways pilot bargaining position.

Several airlines have in-house unions, but many of them see the benefit to one major national union.

Over the last few years, the APA and SWAPA begin to get seriously "involved" with ALPA in a sharing of resources and information. This is something ALPA learned during the Continental Strike.

I believe that the US Airways Pilots Association will end up being a "management" union that will do anything to "save" their company and will end up cheapening the profession.

To truly strengthen the profession, all pilots under one national union is the way. ALPA would be much stronger with USAir, AAL, SWA, UPS, etc. in their ranks. It is a situation of the "the sum of the whole is greater than the parts."

Only challenge is that the rank and file actually has to get involved rather than sitting around waiting for something to get handed to them.

 

[BoilerUP]

Only challenge is that the rank and file actually has to get involved rather than sitting around waiting for something to get handed to them.

What, you mean like volunteer for a committee? Make a sacrifice? Inform yourself and educate others? Do something on your own time for the benefit of your fellow pilots?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FRIGGIN MIND?

I show up, fly my line, and go home...that union sh!t is for fools...

/sarcasm off

 

[PCL_128]

What makes you so sure ALPA is not the problem?

Because ALPA is only as good as the people who lead it. People are your problem, not the organization itself. If AAA ALPA leaves the group and creates this ridiculous USAPA union, then you'll have the exact same people running it. If you exclude all of the people that had previously occupied ALPA leadership positions then you wouldn't have anyone left that was willing to do the work. Something I noticed during my time doing ALPA work was that the very same people that were doing ALPA work 20 years ago are the people still doing it today. Thousands upon thousands of other pilots had the opportunity to step up to the plate during that time, but they'd rather spend their time on the golf course or watching their TV than actually have to get involved and work to improve their union and their profession.

ALPA is just a name. The organization itself is made up of people. Changing the name and even the bylaws won't fix your problem. The problem is far more fundamental than that. The problem is an irresponsible membership that would rather sit around and b%*ch than actually do something for their union.

That boat sailed. Now ALPA needs to pay the price of that failure.

Ahh, I see. So this is about revenge. You perceive that ALPA has screwed you, so you're going to screw it right back. At least now we know that we're dealing with someone that's completely irrational.

 

[stlflyguy]

not only that but a former MEC chairman who became the bumbling, stumbling CEO who sold you down the river. you point at ALPA but some fingers should come back to the TWA MEC who failed to act. if you guys prove ALPA intentionally screwed you to bring back the APA through the 13 (or whatever it is) party lawsuit (which in and of itself shows the downright greed self indulged pilots exude as the infighting that goes on is downright hilarious: swapping attorneys, but others want to stay so they can feed the business to their attorney friends, etc.) then all the power to you.

Actually, he was a great COO. He was elevated far higher than he should have been. His job was in the crosshairs and he sold the airline to preserve HIMSELF. He received a couple of mil to stay on during some of the transition. There was a plan to oust him and he beat the board to the punch by getting with AA.

Now if you want to talk about representation cards, destroyed evidence, etc., and the undermining of the TWA pilot's position, you might actually be onto the truth. The MEC acted on the best information possible and that information was, unfortunately, through ALPA. ALPA did nearly everything it could to keep the MEC and the TWA pilots wedged into a corner...all for the APA's appeasement.

The great thing is that the law firm is confident enough to do this on contingency...the case is that strong.

stlflyguy

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That membership participation is no worse today than it was in ALPA's infancy. In other words, ALPA's membership has always been willfully ignorant and irresponsible.

. From Flying the Line, Vol. 1, page 227:

Inevitably, a new generation arrived made up of pilots less steeped in the past struggles and more content about the professional status ALPA had created for them. The new generation was also increasingly indifferent to ALPA and its administration. Pioneer pilots, by and large, paid close attention to ALPA affairs, and they couldn’t understand the lackadaisical attitude of the younger pilots, partically when it came to governance at the local level. By the late 1950s, many pilots simply took for granted that somebody else would do the hard work needed to sustain ALPA. While complacent pilots golfed or pursued second careers, a minority ran ALPA’s local affairs on each airline.

Although most of these individuals were dedicated to making ALPA work, on some airlines a few pilots used ALPA as a gimmick for personal aggrandizement. The indifference of the rank and file and the poor attendance at local council meetings meant that a minority on any airline could, with proper planning, seize control and eventually dominate the master executive council (MEC) itself. The danger was that a well-organized clique could speak for an indifferent majority of pilots.

 

[CaptBud330]

Ask for the ALPO Budget

For all the Kool Aid drinkers that think ALPO is the greatest, just ask for the latest ALPO budget and pour yourself a stiff one. You won't believe the lavish lifestyle the "leaders" are living on your nickel.
My personal opinion is that the union leaders should make no more then what they would be making at their previous seniority if they were still flying.

 

[PCL_128]

For all the Kool Aid drinkers that think ALPO is the greatest, just ask for the latest ALPO budget and pour yourself a stiff one. You won't believe the lavish lifestyle the "leaders" are living on your nickel.

As a former ALPA Secretary-Treasurer, I can tell you that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. "Lavish lifestyle?" I stayed in Comfort Inns and the like many times on ALPA business. We were always careful to keep group meal costs down. I wish I had been living this lifestyle that so many pilots imagine.

My personal opinion is that the union leaders should make no more then what they would be making at their previous seniority if they were still flying.

That's exactly how it works already.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For all the Kool Aid drinkers that think ALPO is the greatest, just ask for the latest ALPO budget and pour yourself a stiff one. You won't believe the lavish lifestyle the "leaders" are living on your nickel.
.

Convairs??? BAC's......

Most kids don't what a convair is.... and think BAC is blood alc content.....

The kids don't know what you've flown and you don't know much about protecting your career...

You'd rather raise discontent then effect positive change..... After all these years flying, one would think you'd know about divide and conquer....

My personal opinion is that the union leaders should make no more then what they would be making at their previous seniority if they were still flying

Let me help you up......

If ALPA leaders made what any line pilot made then it would cost them money to volunteer.... now why would they do that? Why would they pay money to get treated like garbage from the likes of you....

Effect positive change...


It is not that ALPA does not have problems... we do. Big problems.... but being a divisive ALPA member is fodder.... it is regressive and makes our careers spiral out of control....

Many ALPA pilots have been volunteers... and they have stopped and become cynical and negative. And there are others... who know there are problems but continue to work for positive change. And they also know that being cynical and negative will contribute to the demise our the profession. Which are you?

If you want your career prospects to improve you are going to have to get involved. If you think the status quo is unacceptable and the current leadership is ineffective then [only] complaining will do very little. Any type of positive change is going to take individual pilots getting involved.

You can argue all you want....but in the end.... change will require a change. A change in membership apathy...

 

[A350]

Res:

How many times do you expect the average line pilot to get hit in the head before he/she decides that it is better to avoid the punch in the first place?

ALPA has problems, and it isn't necessarily the people running it, although I believe it has been in the past and quite possibly is now. They are STRUCTURAL problems. Structural in how the union is set up, how the plans of the union are executed, and IMO the fact that somewhere along the way, ALPA put itself ahead of the profession. Look at age 60. ALPA members are profoundly against it....but ALPA national decides instead of fighting for what the membership wants, it would rather be part of the process to implement it. Dead wrong.

I have said many times before, if ALPA had put its neck out like it expects the average line guy to during the tough times, maybe we wouldn't be in the pickle most of us find ourselves in.

Representation by ALPA for me, has been an abysmal failure. ALPA doesn't have to stand tall, but it must stand for something and all it is now is a loosely bonded association of pilots from different airlines with differing needs, wants, desires, and of course lots in life. There are halves, have nots, bees and wannabes. What is good for some is not necessarily good for the rest and ALPA hasn't learned to say to any group that we will not let this or that stand.
The seniority integration between U/AWA is just another example. They have a process and a loose outline for how it is to be done, but they are NEUTRAL, therefore you see the result.

When this happens, I will be an ALPA cheerleader. Until then, I will firmly be in the camp that ALPA membership for me is not in my best interest.

A350

 

[CaptBud330]

Lavish Life Styles

Not to belabor the point, but what did you say Praters salary was as head of ALPO? Was it $400,000 or $450,000. Oh, I'm sorry, did you say he didn't have a personal driver that was paid what? I was confused about his paid automobile and travel allowance. I guess I didn't hear you when we talked of the meetings on Palm Springs. Oh, that's right, you were at the Days Inn in Palmdale.
The head honchos make a whole lot more then flying the line. The local guys make trips missed but they to don't spare the expenses. It's so typical. If someone else is picking up the tab, you'll have steak instead of burger.
The only way to change ALPO is to hit them in the place that hurts the most, loss of membership.

 

[PHXFLYR]

You feel that way when you were flying that BAC-111? Or were you too busy cashing those A scale paychecks?

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Convairs??? BAC's......

Most kids don't what a convair is.... and think BAC is blood alc content.....

The kids don't know what you've flown...

.

Don't be so sure ,Pops. I pumped gas into both for the airline he flew for while in high school. Hell, for all we know he may have been the Captain on the dam thing.You really like to think your the ace of the base,don't you?


PHXFLYR

 

[CaptBud330]

Do you even have a clue?

PHXFLYR, do you even have a clue what the BAC-111 paid? I would do my homework before you spout off.

 

[DiverDriver]

For all the Kool Aid drinkers that think ALPO is the greatest, just ask for the latest ALPO budget and pour yourself a stiff one. You won't believe the lavish lifestyle the "leaders" are living on your nickel.
My personal opinion is that the union leaders should make no more then what they would be making at their previous seniority if they were still flying.

They didn't drink Kool-Aid in the "Jone's Town Masacre/Mass Suicide". It was "Flavor-aid" a British powder drink. Man, each time I see people post "Kool-Aid drinkers" it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

Read here: Clicky

 

[PHXFLYR]

PHXFLYR, do you even have a clue what the BAC-111 paid? I would do my homework before you spout off.

It was still probably good money for the day.And you know it............I think you get the general thrust of my comment.though. You guys were quick to sing ALPA's praises when the times were good and the money was flowing. Now that you hit a bump in the road, and a significant one,no doubt,you want to boot there a$$ out the door. Why not show them the exit back in the good old days??


PHXFLYR

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How many times do you expect the average line pilot to get hit in the head before he/she decides that it is better to avoid the punch in the first place?

Change only occurs when the pain of the status quo is perceived to be greater than change...

ALPA has problems, and it isn't necessarily the people running it, although I believe it has been in the past and quite possibly is now. They are STRUCTURAL problems. Structural in how the union is set up, how the plans of the union are executed, and IMO the fact that somewhere along the way, ALPA put itself ahead of the profession.

Ok...agreed.... what then. You've identified a problem.... as pilots do we not solve problems?

Look at age 60. ALPA members are profoundly against it....but ALPA national decides instead of fighting for what the membership wants, it would rather be part of the process to implement it. Dead wrong.

I think age 60 is a big deal... I also think there is allot of fear of the unknown. I am waiting to see how it all goes down....

When the 19th century was new there was allot of talk that the Constitution was dead. Allot of hyberbole...

I have said many times before, if ALPA had put its neck out like it expects the average line guy to during the tough times, maybe we wouldn't be in the pickle most of us find ourselves in.

I think that is a paradox, a catch-22. ALPA could put its neck out if it had more membership support. The membership would support ALPA more if ALPA would put outs its neck.

So as pilots (aka leaders) what do we do... do we ponder the paradox or do we do something....??

Representation by ALPA for me, has been an abysmal failure. ALPA doesn't have to stand tall, but it must stand for something and all it is now is a loosely bonded association of pilots from different airlines with differing needs, wants, desires, and of course lots in life.

ALPA has always been a loosely association! What do you mean NOW? It is not like it has been great and only now it has degraded to its current status!

And I agree.... this is what we have to fix. We are a dysfunctional family... we can't solve the issues because we can't fucntion!! Right now the issues are ancilliary to our functionality!!

There are halves, have nots, bees and wannabes. What is good for some is not necessarily good for the rest and ALPA hasn't learned to say to any group that we will not let this or that stand.
The seniority integration between U/AWA is just another example. They have a process and a loose outline for how it is to be done, but they are NEUTRAL, therefore you see the result.

Agreed! And this is where leadership comes into play. A leader can progessively move the group in a forward direction and address the needs of different parties.

So let's elect a leader than an do that... well we just did six months ago.... and how's that working for us?

In addition, we got guys that want to address union compensation. (which really isn't an issue, guys just need to make it a distraction). Do you want to talk about union salaries or protecting age 60? Union salaries or AAA/AWA intergration?

And here is a big part of the problem.... yes we need good leadership.. but we also need good followership. They require each other. And in a democractic society you cannot have one without the other!

And good followership is what each individual can control right NOW! Sure lots of problems will take time to fix, but the one thing every pilot can fix is thier ability as member. Recall, we are dysfucntional, so we must improve that before we can address the issues...

When this happens, I will be an ALPA cheerleader. Until then, I will firmly be in the camp that ALPA membership for me is not in my best interest.

If being an effective ALPA member is not in your intrests then what is? How do you manage your career?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not to belabor the point, but what did you say Praters salary was as head of ALPO? Was it $400,000 or $450,000. Oh, I'm sorry, did you say he didn't have a personal driver that was paid what? I was confused about his paid automobile and travel allowance. I guess I didn't hear you when we talked of the meetings on Palm Springs. Oh, that's right, you were at the Days Inn in Palmdale.
The head honchos make a whole lot more then flying the line. The local guys make trips missed but they to don't spare the expenses. It's so typical. If someone else is picking up the tab, you'll have steak instead of burger.
The only way to change ALPO is to hit them in the place that hurts the most, loss of membership.

You are so far off base and uninformed. I suggest you do a search on this message board. It is amazing you've been around this long and think this way...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Say farewell to pensions
Employers are dropping or freezing pension plans for their workers at a much faster rate than most experts realized, according to a newly released study. Nearly two-thirds of companies with traditional pensions have shut out new hires or frozen the plans for everyone. The trend started with troubled industries, such as steel and autos, but has spread to healthier companies such as IBM and Verizon. "This is a watershed event," said pension specialist Jack VanDerhei of Temple University. (Los Angeles Times, free registration required)



The above occurred on ALPA's watch. ALPA should have shut down UAL before letting this type of injustice to spread nationwide.



Now ALPA says we did all we could and will spin this and spin this blaming the pilots poor participation when in fact is was ALPA leadership that did not see this as a watershed issue.



ALPA should have laid the entire association on the line for this pension issue. Instead ALPA let it go.



The pension reform legislation of 2005 was no reform. It was ALPA's biggest failure and will get an entire chapter in Flying the Line, Vol. 3, How ALPA sucked wind for too long and destroyed the profession.

 

[Milmil]

"Hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

I believe that USAirways leaving ALPA will only serve to weaken the profession, overall labor movement, and USAirways pilot bargaining position.

Several airlines have in-house unions, but many of them see the benefit to one major national union.

Over the last few years, the APA and SWAPA begin to get seriously "involved" with ALPA in a sharing of resources and information. This is something ALPA learned during the Continental Strike.

I believe that the US Airways Pilots Association will end up being a "management" union that will do anything to "save" their company and will end up cheapening the profession.

To truly strengthen the profession, all pilots under one national union is the way. ALPA would be much stronger with USAir, AAL, SWA, UPS, etc. in their ranks. It is a situation of the "the sum of the whole is greater than the parts."

Only challenge is that the rank and file actually has to get involved rather than sitting around waiting for something to get handed to them.

Captain Prater is that you?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA has problems, and it isn't necessarily the people running it, although I believe it has been in the past and quite possibly is now. They are STRUCTURAL problems. Structural in how the union is set up, how the plans of the union are executed, and IMO the fact that somewhere along the way, ALPA put itself ahead of the profession.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. You claim that ALPA has structural problems. What are they and how do you propose to create a better structure in this new "USAPA?" What improvements do you believe can be made to the structure in order to avoid the problems that you see in ALPA? Why can't those changes simply be made to the existing organization rather than trying to reinvent the wheel?

Look at age 60. ALPA members are profoundly against it

That's what I thought, too, but apparently not. Over 200 AAA pilots showed up in Herndon to protest the Nic award, but I haven't seen anybody storming the castle to protest the Age-60 decision by the EC and EB. If the membership is so upset, then where are they? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the average pilot is that upset about this. They should be, but they don't appear to be.