USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[PCL_128]

By your logic, East pilots had zero expectation of their company ever emerging from bankruptcy.

It's doubtful that AWA could have survived without a merger, so I put both airlines on a level playing field with that. Nicalau disagreed, but many would argue that he shouldn't even be looking at hypotheticals anyway.

A 5 year fence on the currentnumber of widebody/international positions would be a far sight better for East pilots than what they got via the Nicolau decision, would it not?

True, but we now have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. The AAA MEC certainly expected a better outcome than what they got. I was shocked at the decision, and I'm sure most of the AAA leadership was as well.

Besides, it would be completely unreasonable to prevent former West pilots from benefitting from any additional widebody/international growth that would take place.

It's not unprecedented at all. The Northwest/Republic merger resulted in a fence of nearly 20 years that kept the "green book" Republic pilots out of the wide bodies. The Republic pilots had no expectations of ever flying that size of equipment, so they weren't entitled to the slots until the "red book" pilots had their chance. Seems perfectly fair to me.

The problem here is "reasonable" expectations...and on the outside looking in it certainly appears the expectations and desires of West pilots were a helluva lot more reasonable that those of their East counterparts.

Agreed, but that doesn't really factor in to what the EC and the courts will look at when determining whether merger policy was properly adhered to.

 

[CitationLover]

ALPA needs to be held accountable.

ALPA has completely failed this profession since 1998.

ALPA is about is perserving ALPA and working for ALPA not the pilots.

let's see....

i am sure the eastern folks would disagree with your "since 1998" comment.

i am sure the TWA folks would agree since they are still suing ALPA for misrepresentation and salivating over bringing the APA back in.

i am sure the PanAm pilots who successfully sued ALPA and their own MEC for their Delta "integration" would disagree with you regarding the 1998 comment.

during the 80's we heard blue skies and b-scales were "allowed" by ALPA / APA and they were at fault.

etc etc etc

ALPA is the convenient scapegoat in our world. This ain't original (check out http://www.aepa.org) and it won't be the last time it will happen.

 

[TWA Dude]

However, the arbitrator is bound by merger policy, and the AAA MEC believes that he disregarded the "no windfall" clause.

Right, they disagree with Nic's ruling. Same difference. Nic clearly explained his reasoning and his view that he was following Policy. The AAA MEC has the burden of proof that Nic didn't follow policy. I read the Complaint and it was simply a rehash of what Nic already heard and ruled on. Nuff said.

That will have to be decided by the EC or by the courts.

Based on what our EVP has said I'm not worried about the EC and I highly doubt the courts will touch this. We'll see.

How is it at your "expense" if you never had any expectations of widebody flying in the first place?

First, on the snapshot date we had x number of firm aircraft deliveries which equals x number of expected captain upgrades. AAA was still downgrading, furloughing and losing airplanes. You're right about our widebody expectations which is why there's a fence and no bump-and-flush.

If they do, then I'm afraid that the decertification effort will be successful, and that's the last thing that ALPA needs at this time. Prater plays the fiddle while ALPA burns...

And if the EC overturns the Award you can bet the West will do the same to protest ALPA Policy not being followed. You'd expect nothing less, right?

It's doubtful that AWA could have survived without a merger, so I put both airlines on a level playing field with that.

Prove it! It's amazing propaganda that AWA in 2005 went from marginally profitable and paying off its debt to "not expected to survive". Horsecookies! Airlines survive for years and years while losing money all the while. There were no financial analysts predicting AWA's demise in 2005 (at least not more than all the other majors).

The AAA MEC certainly expected a better outcome than what they got.

Considering how much warning Nicolau gave them they shouldn't have. And BTW, why don't you think they gave their pilots the same access to the hearing transcripts that the West did?

The Northwest/Republic merger resulted in a fence of nearly 20 years...

Yes, and the result was decades of strife (same as TWA/Ozark). We knew before this arbitration that long-term fences are out of the question. They don't want the process to drag out so long anymore.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

This ain't original (check out http://www.aepa.org) and it won't be the last time it will happen.

So why doesn't the AEPA.org get together with the USAPA.org and collectively put some more pressure on ALPA?

Looks like AEPA has 66% of the support of they need. If AEPA is encouraged by USAPA, the AEPA might just get the 100% they need and vice versa concerning the USAPA.

 

[FDJ2]

i am sure the PanAm pilots who successfully sued ALPA and their own MEC for their Delta "integration" would disagree with you regarding the 1998 comment.

Just to be accurate, some Pan Am pilots settled with ALPA, the ones who saw their case through lost in court and both lawsuits had very little to do with their "integration" with Delta, but very much to do with their not getting the opportunity to come over to Delta.

 

[BigMotorToter]

alpa won't change, refuses to. alpa is out for alpa, and corrupts anyone who get involved with it. alpa is toooooo 'political' and case in point is the age 60 deal. Every previous 'poll' of the membership showed "70-75%" against changing age 60; so what does alpa do, create a new poll and 'write the questions to get the desired results.' That sounds pretty much like most political campaigns do, right???

If you think that alpa will 'accept' change and will become more receptive to its members, then I think you are just 'dreaming.'

ALPA MUST GO!!

DA

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

ALPA didn't help this ex-TWA guy. I say F*** ALPA!!!!

 

[waveflyer]

Sounds like the East has been unflinching in wanting date of hire whether it's with United or now America West.

What you really want is the security of a national seniority list. I think you should all be honest about that. I also think you have wanted USAir to have been better managed throughout the years- You're upset that you've been "married", by seniority, to a company that has not done well for no fault of your own.

How many lives have to be turned upside down by this current system- where our experience counts for nothing if we change companies?? We can all fight each other endlessly or start working toward a solution. Right now- management is finding newer and more creative ways to leverage seniority against us.

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA didn't help this ex-TWA guy. I say F*** ALPA!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nobody leaves ALPA until the TWA pilots have won the suit and the membership has paid up! :beer:

stlflyguy

 

[HomerJ]

If Doug and the boys had let USAir alone and let it die like it deserved, we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Unfortunately, no airline of any considerable size, no matter how dismal, is allowed to fail anymore.

 

[A350]

I just printed the form, filled it out, and sent it in.

ALPA's failures are numerous, and they continue unabated.

Listening to Prater's video made my flesh crawl....the veil of a threat if ALPA is decertified...the condescending tone, and of course the statement that we need to defend "ALPA and the profession" in that order...

The main problem with ALPA is that they have somehow placed themselves (the association) ahead of the profession. ALPA should be willing to put themselves (the association) on the line to better the profession, just like they expect you the line grunt to put your professional career and family security on the line in the event of a work stoppage.

ALPA's failure in the merger/frag provisions has been a glaring example of how they do business. They are a "neutral" in the whole process. That is pure, unadulterated BS. They should be neck deep in what happens when two ALPA groups merge or one if fragged into another. The failure started with the second route transfer from Pan Am to UAL and it continued with the DAL purchase of the last bits of Pan Am. This is just a continuation of the same failed policy, which is don't get your hands dirty sorting it out, because then you can be sued and held responsible.

ALPA is unwilling to put their necks out for anything...they refuse to fight the many government incursions into our professional lives (security screening and drug testing come to mind)....even more so since the AMR guys got spanked by the Fed judge in Dallas after their little sickout. (Which is BS also) The RLA needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the union needs to put it's money where it's mouth is. Now we have cabotage, foreign ownership, and age 60......watch what the association does now.

When ALPA gets its hands dirty defending the profession from swirling down the bowl, let me know.

Until then....BTW....don't lecture me about getting involved and invoking change. It has been tried and is being tried. You can storm the castle, but you won't get inside. That is tighter than Ft. Knox.


A350