USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[luckytohaveajob]

You are so far off base and uninformed. I suggest you do a search on this message board. It is amazing you've been around this long and think this way...

Off base? What are you smoking?

National ALPO leaders make double the money they would make on the line. Stay in the penthouse suites during the meetings. Eat whatever they want on the menu. And have all their expenses paid on expense accounts.

I have seen it with my own eyes so don't sit their and tell me otherwise and expect me to believe what you write.

Your in a spin free zone.

 

[PCL_128]

The above occurred on ALPA's watch. ALPA should have shut down UAL before letting this type of injustice to spread nationwide.

ALPA can't force the UAL pilots to stand up for themselves. That's their own decision to make. They made the decision that self-preservation was more important. It's easy to tell other pilots to give up everything for the "greater good," but it's much harder if you're the one that has to give it all up.

 

[TWA Dude]

ALPA should have shut down UAL before letting this type of injustice to spread nationwide.

Oh, now this is precious. You want ALPA to have the authority to shut down an entire airline for the good of the others? Firstly, shouldn't that be a decision made by UAL pilots only? Secondly, while it's easy to accuse ALPA of being weak, imaging the outcry if it did something so bold. I don't even think it's legal. Regardless, you can bet the DOJ and Congress (even a Democrat-led) would get involved -- to our detriment.

 

[PCL_128]

National ALPO leaders make double the money they would make on the line.

Bull$&^%. Prove it. What would Captain Rice make on the line, and what does he make (in compensation, not expenses) as an ALPA Officer? Have you even seen the BOD resolution that deals with Officer compensation?

Stay in the penthouse suites during the meetings. Eat whatever they want on the menu. And have all their expenses paid on expense accounts.

You're all over the map. You can't even stay consistent on what you're complaining about. First it's pensions, then it's ALPA's structure, then it's "the senior guys are screwing the junior guys," now it's Officer expense accounts. All you want to do is b$&ch and whine, yet you have nothing to offer in solutions. All you offer is leaving the organization and starting a new one that will have the exact same issues that you're complaining about here. Do you think that the USAPA leadership won't have expense accounts? Do you think they won't receive flight pay loss at a slight premium to the hours they would receive on the line? Do you think they'll always do as the line pilot wants?

Time to live in the real world. Changing the name of the organization won't fix your issues. Changing the leadership might. But, that would require you actually getting involved instead of golfing and whining on flightinfo, so I doubt that will happen.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's what I thought, too, but apparently not. Over 200 AAA pilots showed up in Herndon to protest the Nic award, but I haven't seen anybody storming the castle to protest the Age-60 decision by the EC and EB. If the membership is so upset, then where are they? I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the average pilot is that upset about this. They should be, but they don't appear to be.

The Airtran TA was such a POS and the political outcry from the avg pilot was so loud that changes are being made without the TA ever going to vote...

That is membership particaption.

But it is only done when it directly effects thier wallet. Why not on other issues?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA can't force the UAL pilots to stand up for themselves. That's their own decision to make. They made the decision that self-preservation was more important. It's easy to tell other pilots to give up everything for the "greater good," but it's much harder if you're the one that has to give it all up.

Luckytohaveajob is just a mouth peice. He got his career education from the street: crewrooms and cockpits. Listening to other pilots who'd rather be witty and cool than correct.... While cynicism and apathy are popular in the crewrooms and my kids fav rock bands it doesn't solve real problems...


He has listened to misinformation for so long that it is virtually impossible to deconstruct his thinking and show him the truth...

It's like he's been told the world is flat all his life and someone showed him a globe... He just won't believe it. And instead of accepting truth he will spend so much time and energy on conspiracy theories and black helicopters (ALPA has five..).

Guys like this are the ball and chain of ALPA...they hold back progress for thier own comfort zone...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Rez speaks like a guy who has never had his career sold in exchange for a few hours of overtime.

In 12 years of flying professionally I've spent 6 on furlough while my more senior former-coworkers voted to allow the outsourcing of more and more narrowbody equipment, increase monthly caps, reduce duty-rigs. They volunteered to work on days off, fly back vacation, and answered the phone when scheduling called to junior-man.

What was ALPA's job again? Job security?

Explain to me how volunteering on the hotel committee or the grievance committee is going to change the "I've got mine" attitude of the airline pilot population?

Rez, your posts are aggressive, angry, arrogant, and self-centered. I have no reason to believe that you are any different than any of the other militant unionists who fought tooth-and-nail for what was theirs... but turned the other cheek when it came to fighting for a little job-security for me.

Preach to someone else Rez. I'm going to be a whole lot happier putting you on "ignore".

 

[737 Pylt]

PHXFLYR, do you even have a clue what the BAC-111 paid? I would do my homework before you spout off.

No he doesn't have a clue. That's why you hear him brag about his fantastic paycheck:laugh: as a 737 pilot for cactus!

737

 

[A350]

PCL and Res:

Many suggestions from people a whole hell of a lot smarter than me have been paraded around crewrooms, cockpits, ALPA meetings, BOD meetings and BS sessions in countless bars and restaurants across the country.

National seniority lists, suspension of services, national contracts....do these things ring a bell?

IMHO, the only way to fix this problem is to as some say....kill a hostage. ALPA, the minute someone in a BK meeting uttered the word pension, should have made it clear that that type of "fix" would not be tolerated. IOW, the airline should have been allowed to either continue their pensions or fold. Why? Because it didn't take an Einstein to figure the next BK would do the same thing. Is that not why after the pensions at USAir were gone, UAL and DAL and NWA? followed? What about the 50, 70, and 90 seat jets? Not at a regional flown under a code share deal.

When Woerth mentions his hallowed meeting when the newly formed TSA that jumpseating would no longer be an option, my response would have been if this is not allowed, NOONE in this country will fly on an airplane until we get our way. We must wield our power as a union, but up till now all we have been unwilling to do anything collectively under the threat of lawsuits and executive orders.

Sorry for the rant, but it seems these things have been discussed for years and if our leadership will not have the guts to call for these types of things, then we will continue to wallow in our own crap trying to shovel ourselves and our profession out of the hole.

A350

 

[CitationLover]

The great thing is that the law firm is confident enough to do this on contingency...the case is that strong.

stlflyguy

i flew a month at eagle with flowbie ex-twa "head" case. that dude was all about the lawsuit talking on the phone nonstop!

 

[PHXFLYR]

A350: Interesting point of view. But don't you think that the reason that these issues have been discussed for years is that there really aren't any easy solutions to the issues that you mention. Regarding your statement that the first airline to lose a pension and how ALPA should have demanded that they just close the doors, I believe the first airline in question was yours. If ALPA were able to pull that off,would you have sacraficed your career for the greater good of those flying at other carriers? Somehow I have my doubts.....


PHXFLYR

 

[CitationLover]

Say farewell to pensions
Employers are dropping or freezing pension plans for their workers at a much faster rate than most experts realized, according to a newly released study. Nearly two-thirds of companies with traditional pensions have shut out new hires or frozen the plans for everyone. The trend started with troubled industries, such as steel and autos, but has spread to healthier companies such as IBM and Verizon. "This is a watershed event," said pension specialist Jack VanDerhei of Temple University. (Los Angeles Times, free registration required)



The above occurred on ALPA's watch. ALPA should have shut down UAL before letting this type of injustice to spread nationwide.



Now ALPA says we did all we could and will spin this and spin this blaming the pilots poor participation when in fact is was ALPA leadership that did not see this as a watershed issue.



ALPA should have laid the entire association on the line for this pension issue. Instead ALPA let it go.



The pension reform legislation of 2005 was no reform. It was ALPA's biggest failure and will get an entire chapter in Flying the Line, Vol. 3, How ALPA sucked wind for too long and destroyed the profession.

Do you REALLY know what you are talking about?

Pensions are EXACTLY the problem here. People live too long and outlived assumptions used to fund benefits promised in good times. Too many regulations killed pensions and they are simply too expensive to administer. IBM was sued when they switched to a cash balance plan and they finally said enough is enough (http://www.allianceibm.org/pensionlawsuitfaq.htm ).

Because we are living longer, pensions COST WAY TOO MUCH MONEY PERIOD. Even more expensive is Post retirement medical, which is open ended with inflation. At least companies can dump these, the federal government is going to bankrupt us on ours.

Airlines are no different than the overall business environment which has switched from DB (A plans) plans to DC (B plans). Add to that that most pilot retirement benefits DWARF the average pension benefits in this country (simple math in the fact that typically a pilot stays at one carrier for his career and his salary only goes up and thus FAP is highest right at retirement) such that Nonqualified plans were standard to cover excesses over 401(a)(17) and 415 limits.

ALPA could do nothing with this. So with scope abuse, whipsawing, etc. you say the LARGEST problem ALPA faced was benefits for nonpaying dues retired members? ha! Even the NFLPA (with its billions) says, "F those retirees! What's in it for me?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez speaks like a guy who has never had his career sold in exchange for a few hours of overtime.

Furloughed twice... but lets not play my pain is greater than yours...

In 12 years of flying professionally I've spent 6 on furlough while my more senior former-coworkers voted to allow the outsourcing of more and more narrowbody equipment, increase monthly caps, reduce duty-rigs. They volunteered to work on days off, fly back vacation, and answered the phone when scheduling called to junior-man.

So it was your fellow pilot?

What was ALPA's job again? Job security?

You think it is absolute?

Explain to me how volunteering on the hotel committee or the grievance committee is going to change the "I've got mine" attitude of the airline pilot population?

Explain how more people pulling onthe same rope won't?

Rez, your posts are aggressive, angry, arrogant, and self-centered. I have no reason to believe that you are any different than any of the other militant unionists who fought tooth-and-nail for what was theirs... but turned the other cheek when it came to fighting for a little job-security for me.

Sorry. i just get fustrated with pilots that isnsist on being apathetic. They love to blame others as they suck the union tit....

Preach to someone else Rez. I'm going to be a whole lot happier putting you on "ignore".

Just posting my opinion.... but you probably can't read this....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Many suggestions from people a whole hell of a lot smarter than me have been paraded around crewrooms, cockpits, ALPA meetings, BOD meetings and BS sessions in countless bars and restaurants across the country.

ok...

National seniority lists, suspension of services, national contracts....do these things ring a bell?

These are amatuer ideas that the hobby unionist likes to throw around...

IMHO, the only way to fix this problem is to as some say....kill a hostage. ALPA, the minute someone in a BK meeting uttered the word pension, should have made it clear that that type of "fix" would not be tolerated. IOW, the airline should have been allowed to either continue their pensions or fold. Why? Because it didn't take an Einstein to figure the next BK would do the same thing. Is that not why after the pensions at USAir were gone, UAL and DAL and NWA? followed? What about the 50, 70, and 90 seat jets? Not at a regional flown under a code share deal.

Sorry..but another hobby idea....you are suggesting that a carrier be sacrficed? which one? why should one carrier be sacrificed? Whos going to pay the mortgage for the pilots on that list? Will a memorial be raised?

How is the sacrfice choosen? A vote? Lottery? Do you think ALPA would be sued...??

When Woerth mentions his hallowed meeting when the newly formed TSA that jumpseating would no longer be an option, my response would have been if this is not allowed, NOONE in this country will fly on an airplane until we get our way. We must wield our power as a union, but up till now all we have been unwilling to do anything collectively under the threat of lawsuits and executive orders.

Why do you think a union has this power? It doesn't. This is a big misconception and it needs to stop. Guys think ALPA has this weapon that it won't use.... it doesn't. The sooner we realize this the better... As soon as we get off these radical ideas and get down to business we can be effective..

Sorry for the rant, but it seems these things have been discussed for years and if our leadership will not have the guts to call for these types of things, then we will continue to wallow in our own crap trying to shovel ourselves and our profession out of the hole.

Again... you seem to think that the leadership for some odd reason won't use guts. There is nothing to call for... Why is that? Why do you know there an answer but the leadership won't deploy it?

Sorry guys, but being career effective is boring. there are is no quick fix, one stop shopping, express lane check out.... to solve our problems...

The effective career stuff that is boring is simply being engaged. connected. participative. Waiting for an national sen list, natioanl pay scales and an SOS is ineffective... Not understanding the political process that controls our careers and thus calling out the leadership is ineffective...

When it comes to managing our careers we are amatuers... we need to turn pro.....

 

[El Pobre]

I really get tired of REZ constantly complaining that the reason that ALPA sucks is because noone participates.

Alot of guys participated in the Age 60 poll that the union conducted....only to have ALPA disregard the results and the will of the majority. My own MEC disregarded the collective will of over 70% of our pilot force and elected to jump on board with Prater and his cronies. Rez...why participate when the national leadership has shown that they don't really care what we think. I used to be very Pro-union, but the more I see ALPA in action, the more I grow disillusioned with the organization. Flying the Line 3....please no!

I still have yet to hear a reasonable arguement of why it was necessary to change the union's stance in order to have a say in the matter. Was Prater going to get kicked of the FAA panel unless ALPA changed it's stance. Was no one going to consult with ALPA unless we changed our stance....I'll answer that...no.

Let's put Prater's argument in a different context...Let's say Airline X's management begins negotiations by saying "we need to have paycuts." I guess ALPA will say to it's membership..."we need to agree to paycuts, otherwise we won't be able to negotiate, so lets change our policy and work for a paycut, that's the only way they will take us seriously." With representation like that...why waste your money.

The reality...I'd rather take my 2% and invest it wisely. Part of the reason that the new FEDEX TA is going to get voted down is because people are fed-up with the MEC and ALPA national and for many this a vote of no-confidence in the MEC and ALPA in general. At least that's the feeling of about 50% of of the guys I talked with...(the other 50% think it's just a crappy agreement.)

I hope USAIR gets rid of ALPA...if anything just to send a message to those idiots in Herndon.

 

[ualdriver]

I really get tired of REZ constantly complaining that the reason that ALPA sucks is because noone participates.

Guys like us get tired of guys constantly complaining about ALPA, yet they probably haven't even seen the inside of a Union hall their entire career.

Alot of guys participated in the Age 60 poll that the union conducted....only to have ALPA disregard the results and the will of the majority.

Did they disregard the will of the majority? Search my screen name and look at the poll results I posted about a month back. Seems to me they're following the will of the majority once the Age 60 rule was politically lost. Maybe you can tell me, using facts, where I'm going wrong with my logic. Can you post the poll results please? You must have seen them, or you wouldn't be making comments like the above, correct?

I still have yet to hear a reasonable arguement of why it was necessary to change the union's stance in order to have a say in the matter. Was Prater going to get kicked of the FAA panel unless ALPA changed it's stance. Was no one going to consult with ALPA unless we changed our stance....I'll answer that...no.

Well, who did you ask Pobre? Did you call or write your ALPA legislative people? You know, the ones who deal with issues like this every day? I bet you didn't. I did. But you had your answer already, didn't you? And you didn't want to confuse yourself with a dissenting opinion, right? You, unfortunately, are representative of many people that bash ALPA, yet do it without even trying to find out facts for yourself.

Here's the resonse I got when I -perish the thought- actually took the time to write and call a couple of months back. The question I asked: Is ALPA going to continue to fight the Age 60 rule, considering the latest National resolution? What's the harm in continuing to fight "to the death" vs. the tact ALPA National seems to be taking now?


XXXXXXXX-

I think that the resolution actually allows that, in a way. ALPA's position is that there are certain parts of the inevitable change that are required to make it acceptable to the pilot group. If all those parts are included in the mix, then the position will be to accept the change. I think this puts us in a better bargaining position than to say no under any circumstances and then try to bargain. We really want to have our G/A folks included in the discussions and formulation of whatever the policy will be. If the position remains "not only no but hell no, under any circumstances" we would be excluded from much of the discussion.

I think your question goes to a basic issue between many Pilots and Government. We (Pilots) tend to be black and white, problem solver personalities. We want to identify the problem, solve it, and move on to the next issue. Politics exists in the grey areas. You really do not know what the final result will be until it is done and there are many detours along the way.The more communication channels and doors you can keep open during the process, the better. Our reluctance to adjust to what many see as an inevitable change was beginning to cause some closed doors.

Hopefully, the course chosen by the members of the Executive Board will allow G/A to achieve the best possible result. We have several looming issues in addition to any retirement age change and we need to keep our friends on our side and win over some who are not normally supportive.

How about that? Does that make any sense? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, the guys we have at this Legislative level of ALPA have a better idea of the big picture than a bunch of guys on an aviation message board or a bunch of guys who know NOTHING of how the political sytem is played on the Hill?

We have more issues coming down the pipe that are in my opinion, bigger than Age 60. One being some changes to PBGC legislation. The other biggie: cabotage. Do any of you guys who are bashing this ALPA for this Age 60 deal think that maybe, again just maybe, if we "fought this to the death" we might lose some friends on the Hill? Friends that might help us with this cabotage deal, for example? Political friends that might change the PBGC legislation for some ALPA guys who lost their pensions?

Nah, that's crazy talk!! Those ALPA guys are all stupid. Every one of them. Let's fight lost battles to the end, alienate those who might help us in the future and have helped us in the past. It sure was nice to have friend in Washington, for example, when some anti-labor a-holes tried to make a strike by any transportation worker a "terrorist act." But, after all, guys like Pobre certainly know better than ALPA legislative people.

 

[El Pobre]

I guess you're right....cabotage is certainly a big issue and ALPA should have a voice in it...We should immediately change ALPA's position to support cabotage so that we can have a say in how it is implemented. Let me help John Prater by formulating the question for the survey. "Should ALPA play a role in formulating any policies concerning Cabotage in the United States?". Yes? "We'll the membership wants cabotage!"

The PBGC is almost a mute point. Now that we will all be working to age 65 the penalty that airline pilots were being hit with is gone. Remember...work harder...not smarter. Perhaps ALPA can work to make it a better deal so that all the airlines can dump thier pensions. As a matter of fact, if we want to have any say in the matter, that is probably the course we need to take.

Additionally, I never said that ALPA's position had to be "not only no but hell no, under any circumstances". That quite frankly, would be stupid. However, is it not possible to say..."We don't support changing this policy, however, if it does change, than these are points that we believe would need to be addressed." Seriously, what idiot would say..."no I just want you to sit on the sidelines and do nothing". Of course people want ALPA involved, but again, none of the ALPA reps I have spoken to on this matter have ever been able to give me one concrete bit of evidence that ALPA was going to be shut out of this process unless our position changed.

You want statistics, look at the ALPA website and there are the statistics. ALPA used the responses to one question (and I paraphrase here) "If age 60 is going to change, do you want ALPA to have a say in the changes?" as proof positive that the membership wanted to change age 60. My particular pilot group voted overwhelmingly against changing age-60 (over 70% against) yet our MEC followed Prater like a pack of lemmings rather than listening to those who elected them to represent us. That's right...to represent us...not John Prater. I have alot more respect for NWA's MEC who represented their membership and let their members voices be heard.

ALPA asked for memberships opinion...then disregarded it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA asked for memberships opinion...then disregarded it.

ALPA asked for the memberships opinion and only got minority particaption...

You can argue as much as you want... in the end... positive change will only come from increased member education, particaption and activism.

After all it is your career.....

 

[El Pobre]

Dude, Rez...you gotta get off the "since everyone didn't vote, we are going to disregard the opinions of those that did" bandwagon.

If only 45% of the American public votes in 2008, should Bush just stay in the whitehouse for another 4 years...only a minority would have participated. That's your argument and it's WEAK!

I understand that you want more guys to participate and that's commendable, however, you gotta go with what you have and who did take the time to participate.

EP
--------------------------------------
I’ve made it clear to the news media, financial analysts, and airline CEOs that we are not going away.” John Prater....

Please John Please....GO AWAY!!!!

 

[ualdriver]

I guess you're right....cabotage is certainly a big issue and ALPA should have a voice in it...We should immediately change ALPA's position to support cabotage so that we can have a say in how it is implemented. Let me help John Prater by formulating the question for the survey. "Should ALPA play a role in formulating any policies concerning Cabotage in the United States?". Yes? "We'll the membership wants cabotage!"

The PBGC is almost a mute point. Now that we will all be working to age 65 the penalty that airline pilots were being hit with is gone. Remember...work harder...not smarter. Perhaps ALPA can work to make it a better deal so that all the airlines can dump thier pensions. As a matter of fact, if we want to have any say in the matter, that is probably the course we need to take.

Additionally, I never said that ALPA's position had to be "not only no but hell no, under any circumstances". That quite frankly, would be stupid. However, is it not possible to say..."We don't support changing this policy, however, if it does change, than these are points that we believe would need to be addressed." Seriously, what idiot would say..."no I just want you to sit on the sidelines and do nothing". Of course people want ALPA involved, but again, none of the ALPA reps I have spoken to on this matter have ever been able to give me one concrete bit of evidence that ALPA was going to be shut out of this process unless our position changed.

You want statistics, look at the ALPA website and there are the statistics. ALPA used the responses to one question (and I paraphrase here) "If age 60 is going to change, do you want ALPA to have a say in the changes?" as proof positive that the membership wanted to change age 60. My particular pilot group voted overwhelmingly against changing age-60 (over 70% against) yet our MEC followed Prater like a pack of lemmings rather than listening to those who elected them to represent us. That's right...to represent us...not John Prater. I have alot more respect for NWA's MEC who represented their membership and let their members voices be heard.

ALPA asked for memberships opinion...then disregarded it.

Pobre-

So your position is that ALPA (Prater) knew that the pilot group wanted Age 60, but secretly went behind the membership's back and said "OK" to Age 65? Is that correct? It wasn't the political process we lost with the ICAO rules, Blakely's Jan 31st announcement, or anything like that. It was ALPA disregarding its membership outright. Do you have any hard evidence of that? I assume you would, and I'd like to see it. You mention above that not one of your ALPA reps have been able to give you "once concrete piece of evidence" that ALPA would be shut out of the process if we kept fighting, correct? So therefore someone is lying to all of us about being shut out of the process and potentially burning some bridges because you don't have "concrete" proof.

But if you can't give me a concrete piece of evidence that Prater said "OK" to the FAA, Congress, and whoever else matters as you imply, and THAT'S what changed the Age 60 rule, then your belief can't be true either, correct? You're going to make a consistent argument, right? So, proof please? I sent you a copy of a letter I received, which backs up my person beliefs of how the Age 65 thing went down. How about you? What do you have? A conspiracy theory?

The fact of the matter, Pobre, is that we lost a political battle after many years. Only ALPA's fighting kept all this from happening sooner. Guys like you don't like losing, so what do you do? You lash out at the nearest punching bag- ALPA. It's ALPA's fault we lost age 60. It's ALPA's fault we lost our pensions. It's ALPA's fault when/if we lose ________. You're a black and white guy in a shades of grey world. I don't think any amount of debate will get through to you. Good luck.

 

[A350]

Res:

Amateur ideas? See nothing changes.

Its only amateur because ALPA didn't think of it.

Would U have shut the doors over the pension issue? No. The managers like to scare the pilots and the union into flinching. The managers have way too much to lose by closing the doors. Further, with a national seniority list, closing the door at a company would allow the other carriers who absorb the failure to absorb the pilots from the stricken carrier. Would a NWA Captain rather move down 100 numbers on the Airbus in DTW and keep his pension or the alternative?

These ideas need to be explored and implemented if warranted. It will never happen with the pansies that run ALPA.

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys like you don't like losing, so what do you do? You lash out at the nearest punching bag- ALPA. It's ALPA's fault we lost age 60. It's ALPA's fault we lost our pensions. It's ALPA's fault when/if we lose ________. You're a black and white guy in a shades of grey world. I don't think any amount of debate will get through to you. Good luck.

Another reason why guys will beat up ALPA..... cause they are the only ones that will listen!!!

Will the company listen to a pilots complaints? Will the gov't? Heck your wife is probably tired of hearing you bt1tch and moan about how the world isn't right....

I was talking to an ALPA rep and he didn't really want to go back the office... cause he had over 400 emails on this AWA/AAA merger... which is fine on the surface....but....

There is only one constructive email for every 100. The emails are what you see here on this message board... emotional tirades that offer nothing positive.

Here is the kicker.... if he doesn't reply to the emails then he is a jerk for not doing so... So he has got to sit there and absorb all this negativity... thank god he isn't a FFDO.....

Now... do you want the ALPA reps that are working the issues to spend hours replying to whinney pilots or do you want him working the issue....

Guys...time to grow a pair and work to effect positive change for your career.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A350-

Look... all of the discussions I've had with national list and pay always die. Until someone comes up with a workable solution it is simply fodder.

Ok...... let's debate....

Amateur ideas? See nothing changes.

Its only amateur because ALPA didn't think of it.

If it is such a great idea then why isn't it so?

Would U have shut the doors over the pension issue? No. The managers like to scare the pilots and the union into flinching. The managers have way too much to lose by closing the doors. Further, with a national seniority list, closing the door at a company would allow the other carriers who absorb the failure to absorb the pilots from the stricken carrier.

A350..stop right there. HOW is ALPA going to get another company to absorb the pilots? HOW!!

Would a NWA Captain rather move down 100 numbers on the Airbus in DTW and keep his pension or the alternative?

Of course... and I would love to be B747 CA right now... but it isn't happening and I am not blaming anyone..

These ideas need to be explored and implemented if warranted. It will never happen with the pansies that run ALPA.

I agree. Who is gonna do it? You?

You could. Politik your LEC leadership to create a National Sen. List Exploratory Committee. You can chair it. If you arrive at a workable solution I will support you 100%. In fact I support you 100% in forming the committee.

So let's consider this an impromtu action meeting...

Action items:

1. Respond immediately with "how we will get another company to absorb pilots"

2. Politik LEC reps to form committee. Bring a resolution to the next LEC meeting.



Look man, I know I am comming across abrasive and that is my fault cause I don't know how to communicate this more effectively.

You can't sit around and believe that if ALPA would only create a National Sen list things would be better. Unions doesn't work that way... You have to be politically savvy but grassroots efforts like this is how it gets done...

 

[A350]

Res:

Yeah, I'll jump all over that.

You know why these ideas won't work? Because the masses of unwashed (myself included) won't sign off on them because at some point, I would have to put my career on the back burner to someone who has strengthened the profession and put his/her career on the line and lost. It would then be up to me to pony up my seniority and QOL so someone who has taken one for the team......I know it is a failure from the beginning because the pilots of today aren't built that way.

These things have to be done together and to get the ball rolling, we need the leadership to come up with the plan. Leaders lead and members follow.

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

These things have to be done together and to get the ball rolling, we need the leadership to come up with the plan. Leaders lead and members follow.

A350

Agreed... the leaders are politicians... the followers are pilots. When the followership starts thinking like politicians we will start to be more effective.

It is clear... the pilots expectations are not being met....

But lets not assume that those expectations are valid. Only after you objectively analyze your expectations can we proceed....

Since the pilots expectations are not being met.. and pilots want a change... and we've just changed the leadership....and it isn't going that well... and we've been doing it this way since 1931, what else is there to change?

Do pilots believe that they got hired, completed training and fly the line that prosperous careers are expected if not guranteed? If not, then do they expect someone else to ensure that it is?

IOW the pilots keep complaining but nothing is changing....and the complainers keep insisting the same methodologies be used:

New leaders
SOS
Nat'l Sen List
Nat'l Pay Scales

But nothing is working!! There is no change! At what point do we realize this isn't working!