USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[PlaneDrvr]

If this is one's "only hope" then all hope is indeed lost. Changing unions won't nullify the Nicolau Award nor the need for a joint contract. It's just a knee-jerk and emotional response. The AAA MEC is deceiving its members once again with false-hope and any new union will end up with the same leaders.

Again, don't have a dog in this fight, and sometimes that is what it takes; an 'un-bias' view of the situation.

This would be a question for a skilled lawyer with experience in RLA Law, and not sure if there is any case law on the issue. However, that said, its face, I do believe that leaving (de-certifying) ALPA will 'nullify' the award, as this process was done under 'ALPA merger policy' by agreement by the ALPA MECs and ALPA national. And, if the 'award/list' is not yet put into effect, and the pilots are Nolonger in the ALPA organization; don't think the group would be under any obligation to follow 'alpa merger policy, or any other alpa policy.' If they 'de-certified alpa' prior to having a joint contract and prior to the new list being put into effect; then they would simply set up 'bylaws' in the new union stating that Seniority will be based on LOS (length of service), and negotiate a new contract that would cover 'all' of the pilots of the new union. And, as when You first vote in 'initial representation' whatever the 'status quo' is at the time, must be maintained, meaning all of the current contacts/agreements in place will remain in effect until replaced by a new agreement.

I could be wrong but that is the way that I look at it right now.

And, as a side note, I do hope that they 'de-certify' alpa, to send a message to alpa national, as others are right that alpa national has 'totally failed' in representing its membership. A few examples; age 60, failure to push congress 15-20 yrs ago for 'pension reform' which probably would have saved most pilots' pensions, failure to come up with a comprehensive policy regarding RJs and enforce it, which probably would have kept everything over 50 seats at any alpa carrier, as 'mainline flying,' and finally failure to come up with something more 'specific/detailed' regarding alpa merger policy (as opposed to their one page/vague worded policy) which led to this current issue, and etc. etc. And, well when it comes to alpa's failures, I could go on and on.

ALPA NEEDS TO GO, and I guess this is a start.

Just my $0.02, for what its worth, now feel free to 'rant' away.

DA

 

[PCL_128]

For those hired 1988 and later in the East this is really a no brainer. It's your only hope.

Perhaps you can explain how this will be their "only hope." Decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award. The only hope that you guys have is working within the system to convince Darth Prater to put enough pressure on the AWA MEC to work out a new consensual list. Decertification will only leave you with a weak union that doesn't know what they're doing. It will do nothing to fix the seniority list situation.

Also, maybe you should ask your reps how they voted in the Officer elections at the BOD last October. I think you'll find that at least a few of them voted for this twit Prater that is now turning his back on you.

 

[PCL_128]

PlaneDrvr, you're incorrect about the nullification of the award. The new union would be bound by the policy that was in effect at the time of the arbitration. Simply decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I didn't say to not do anything. By all means effect changes within ALPA. It may not be easy but it'll be far more effective than setting up a new union.

alpa won't change, refuses to. alpa is out for alpa, and corrupts anyone who get involved with it. alpa is toooooo 'political' and case in point is the age 60 deal. Every previous 'poll' of the membership showed "70-75%" against changing age 60; so what does alpa do, create a new poll and 'write the questions to get the desired results.' That sounds pretty much like most political campaigns do, right???

If you think that alpa will 'accept' change and will become more receptive to its members, then I think you are just 'dreaming.'

ALPA MUST GO!!

DA

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

 

[Itsallsogood]

After reading through it all I read that you had to be a US Air pilot or a former AWA pilot. Is that the case or is anyone invited to end ALPA?[/quote]

It is a NEW USAiways pilot (former old AAA pilot and AWA pilot) It is NOT the Old USAirways.
sheeezzzz

 

[BoilerUP]

The only hope that you guys have is working within the system to convince Darth Prater to put enough pressure on the AWA MEC to work out a new consensual list. Decertification will only leave you with a weak union that doesn't know what they're doing. It will do nothing to fix the seniority list situation.

And I would fully expect the West MEC to tell Prater and the East MEC to pound sand. East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration. Now they don't like the arbitrator's decision so now they're trying to exert pressure on ALPA National with the threat of decertification and demand appeasement and concessions from the West MEC with the threat of a non-combined ops airline. It may be within their rights, but it sure seems lacking in integrity.

I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures, right?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

PlaneDrvr, you're incorrect about the nullification of the award. The new union would be bound by the policy that was in effect at the time of the arbitration. Simply decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award.

PCL,

I clearly said that it is ultimately a question for an attorney skilled in RLA Labor law and don't even think there is any case law on this issue.

I am just going by alpa's own policy. It clearly states that the list/arbitrator's award cannot be put in place (essentially means 'nothing' without a joint contract); and if alpa is 'de-certified' prior to obtaining a 'joint contract' and a new union is put in place, and that
new union states in its 'by-laws' that seniority will be based on LOS (length of service). In this case, even if they are 'bound by law' to the old alpa policies (which I am not sure they will), there will be conflict between the 'arbitrator's award' (never put into effect), and the union's by-laws; and what do you think that a court will uphold???

As I said, there are legal issues to be dealt with, but I just think that they will have a good case to 'nullify' the award, and best of all, Get rid of alpa!!!

And, if they are successful in de-certifying, then alpa will be scared $hitless (if they are smart enough to be), as that will show every member out there that it is possible. And, after that, all it would take is one other of the major players (UA, DL, CO, NW) to leave, and alpa will DIE.

Just my $0.02, for what its worth.

DA

P.S. You already have alpa members on here, not US or AWA, who are asking if they can join, so what does that tell you??? Think about it???

 

[PCL_128]

East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration.

"Mutually agreed" is a little misleading. The Admin Manual doesn't allow you to refuse arbitration. If you are unable to reach a consensual agreement, then the matter automatically goes to binding arbitration.

Now they don't like the arbitrator's decision so now they're trying to exert pressure on ALPA National with the threat of decertification and demand appeasement and concessions from the West MEC with the threat of a non-combined ops airline. It may be within their rights, but it sure seems lacking in integrity.

The lack of integrity is coming from the AWA MEC refusing to admit that they received a windfall in this award. The AAA MEC is merely defending their members. I do agree that a lawsuit is not the right way to go, but trying to work within the system to get a new award is what I would expect my MEC to do under the circumstances.

 

[PCL_128]

and what do you think that a court will uphold???

The court will uphold the initial award.

P.S. You already have alpa members on here, not US or AWA, who are asking if they can join, so what does that tell you??? Think about it???

What does that tell me? That tells me what I've already known for a very long time: that the average ALPA member is completely ignorant of how ALPA works, how the law is written, and how organized labor in general works. I wonder how many Local Council meetings the members who are calling for decertification have actually been to? I wonder if they've voted in all of the elections? I wonder if they told their reps how they wanted them to vote in the Officer elections at the last BOD?

The membership is apathetic and irresponsible, and now they want to cry foul and blame the organization for their problems. I call BS.

 

[PHXFLYR]

And I would fully expect the West MEC to tell Prater and the East MEC to pound sand. East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration. ...

We already did,for the reasons you just mentioned.

PHXFLYR