USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[typhoonpilot]

Whether you are furloughed or active check this site out.

US Airline Pilot's Association

If you want to help de-certify ALPA go to this link:

http://www.decertifyalpa.org/library/authcard.pdf

For those hired 1988 and later in the East this is really a no brainer. It's your only hope.


Typhoonpilot

 

[radarlove]

This is going to be a fascinating battle; the USair guys have the right under law to do what they're doing, this could get interesting.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

This new organization, the US Airline Pilots Association, needs to widen its scope.

I want ALPA decertified because of ALPA's failures concerning age 60.

Open this new organization up to everyone that wants to see ALPA cease to exsist and you have got my support.

After reading through it all I read that you had to be a US Air pilot or a former AWA pilot. Is that the case or is anyone invited to end ALPA?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA needs to be held accountable.

ALPA has completely failed this profession since 1998.

ALPA is about is perserving ALPA and working for ALPA not the pilots.

 

[TWA Dude]

For those hired 1988 and later in the East this is really a no brainer. It's your only hope.

If this is one's "only hope" then all hope is indeed lost. Changing unions won't nullify the Nicolau Award nor the need for a joint contract. It's just a knee-jerk and emotional response. The AAA MEC is deceiving its members once again with false-hope and any new union will end up with the same leaders.

 

[TWA Dude]

ALPA needs to be held accountable. ALPA has completely failed this profession since 1998. ALPA is about is perserving ALPA and working for ALPA not the pilots.

You may be right but the union you hope for doesn't exist (and probably never shall).

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA scum in the current leadership positions would be so offended and insulted they would not run for the newly opened positions in the new union.

Plus the new union could make a rule that former Bathist members could not participate other than as a regular member.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

You may be right but the union you hope for doesn't exist (and probably never shall).

democracy is taking on the issues not being defeated and saying that is just the way it has got to be because.

 

[Bad-Andy]

Hmmmmmmm........... Lost an arbitration they thought they would clean house on... Now they want to take their ball and go home... Sounds a whole lot like the RJ Defense Comm... Great... That will help the industry a lot... (Parker must be rolling on the floor laughing his head off at all of this).

Either burn the place down or suck it up and take it in the shorts. Don't weaken the only hope (regardless of how good or bad) you have (a strong, unified union). All you'll do is make the combined company a crappy place to work (which will help make the rest of the majors worse).

 

[TWA Dude]

democracy is taking on the issues not being defeated and saying that is just the way it has got to be because.

I didn't say to not do anything. By all means effect changes within ALPA. It may not be easy but it'll be far more effective than setting up a new union.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

If this is one's "only hope" then all hope is indeed lost. Changing unions won't nullify the Nicolau Award nor the need for a joint contract. It's just a knee-jerk and emotional response. The AAA MEC is deceiving its members once again with false-hope and any new union will end up with the same leaders.

Again, don't have a dog in this fight, and sometimes that is what it takes; an 'un-bias' view of the situation.

This would be a question for a skilled lawyer with experience in RLA Law, and not sure if there is any case law on the issue. However, that said, its face, I do believe that leaving (de-certifying) ALPA will 'nullify' the award, as this process was done under 'ALPA merger policy' by agreement by the ALPA MECs and ALPA national. And, if the 'award/list' is not yet put into effect, and the pilots are Nolonger in the ALPA organization; don't think the group would be under any obligation to follow 'alpa merger policy, or any other alpa policy.' If they 'de-certified alpa' prior to having a joint contract and prior to the new list being put into effect; then they would simply set up 'bylaws' in the new union stating that Seniority will be based on LOS (length of service), and negotiate a new contract that would cover 'all' of the pilots of the new union. And, as when You first vote in 'initial representation' whatever the 'status quo' is at the time, must be maintained, meaning all of the current contacts/agreements in place will remain in effect until replaced by a new agreement.

I could be wrong but that is the way that I look at it right now.

And, as a side note, I do hope that they 'de-certify' alpa, to send a message to alpa national, as others are right that alpa national has 'totally failed' in representing its membership. A few examples; age 60, failure to push congress 15-20 yrs ago for 'pension reform' which probably would have saved most pilots' pensions, failure to come up with a comprehensive policy regarding RJs and enforce it, which probably would have kept everything over 50 seats at any alpa carrier, as 'mainline flying,' and finally failure to come up with something more 'specific/detailed' regarding alpa merger policy (as opposed to their one page/vague worded policy) which led to this current issue, and etc. etc. And, well when it comes to alpa's failures, I could go on and on.

ALPA NEEDS TO GO, and I guess this is a start.

Just my $0.02, for what its worth, now feel free to 'rant' away.

DA

 

[PCL_128]

For those hired 1988 and later in the East this is really a no brainer. It's your only hope.

Perhaps you can explain how this will be their "only hope." Decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award. The only hope that you guys have is working within the system to convince Darth Prater to put enough pressure on the AWA MEC to work out a new consensual list. Decertification will only leave you with a weak union that doesn't know what they're doing. It will do nothing to fix the seniority list situation.

Also, maybe you should ask your reps how they voted in the Officer elections at the BOD last October. I think you'll find that at least a few of them voted for this twit Prater that is now turning his back on you.

 

[PCL_128]

PlaneDrvr, you're incorrect about the nullification of the award. The new union would be bound by the policy that was in effect at the time of the arbitration. Simply decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I didn't say to not do anything. By all means effect changes within ALPA. It may not be easy but it'll be far more effective than setting up a new union.

alpa won't change, refuses to. alpa is out for alpa, and corrupts anyone who get involved with it. alpa is toooooo 'political' and case in point is the age 60 deal. Every previous 'poll' of the membership showed "70-75%" against changing age 60; so what does alpa do, create a new poll and 'write the questions to get the desired results.' That sounds pretty much like most political campaigns do, right???

If you think that alpa will 'accept' change and will become more receptive to its members, then I think you are just 'dreaming.'

ALPA MUST GO!!

DA

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

 

[Itsallsogood]

After reading through it all I read that you had to be a US Air pilot or a former AWA pilot. Is that the case or is anyone invited to end ALPA?[/quote]

It is a NEW USAiways pilot (former old AAA pilot and AWA pilot) It is NOT the Old USAirways.
sheeezzzz

 

[BoilerUP]

The only hope that you guys have is working within the system to convince Darth Prater to put enough pressure on the AWA MEC to work out a new consensual list. Decertification will only leave you with a weak union that doesn't know what they're doing. It will do nothing to fix the seniority list situation.

And I would fully expect the West MEC to tell Prater and the East MEC to pound sand. East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration. Now they don't like the arbitrator's decision so now they're trying to exert pressure on ALPA National with the threat of decertification and demand appeasement and concessions from the West MEC with the threat of a non-combined ops airline. It may be within their rights, but it sure seems lacking in integrity.

I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures, right?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

PlaneDrvr, you're incorrect about the nullification of the award. The new union would be bound by the policy that was in effect at the time of the arbitration. Simply decertifying ALPA will not nullify the arbitration award.

PCL,

I clearly said that it is ultimately a question for an attorney skilled in RLA Labor law and don't even think there is any case law on this issue.

I am just going by alpa's own policy. It clearly states that the list/arbitrator's award cannot be put in place (essentially means 'nothing' without a joint contract); and if alpa is 'de-certified' prior to obtaining a 'joint contract' and a new union is put in place, and that
new union states in its 'by-laws' that seniority will be based on LOS (length of service). In this case, even if they are 'bound by law' to the old alpa policies (which I am not sure they will), there will be conflict between the 'arbitrator's award' (never put into effect), and the union's by-laws; and what do you think that a court will uphold???

As I said, there are legal issues to be dealt with, but I just think that they will have a good case to 'nullify' the award, and best of all, Get rid of alpa!!!

And, if they are successful in de-certifying, then alpa will be scared $hitless (if they are smart enough to be), as that will show every member out there that it is possible. And, after that, all it would take is one other of the major players (UA, DL, CO, NW) to leave, and alpa will DIE.

Just my $0.02, for what its worth.

DA

P.S. You already have alpa members on here, not US or AWA, who are asking if they can join, so what does that tell you??? Think about it???

 

[PCL_128]

East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration.

"Mutually agreed" is a little misleading. The Admin Manual doesn't allow you to refuse arbitration. If you are unable to reach a consensual agreement, then the matter automatically goes to binding arbitration.

Now they don't like the arbitrator's decision so now they're trying to exert pressure on ALPA National with the threat of decertification and demand appeasement and concessions from the West MEC with the threat of a non-combined ops airline. It may be within their rights, but it sure seems lacking in integrity.

The lack of integrity is coming from the AWA MEC refusing to admit that they received a windfall in this award. The AAA MEC is merely defending their members. I do agree that a lawsuit is not the right way to go, but trying to work within the system to get a new award is what I would expect my MEC to do under the circumstances.

 

[PCL_128]

and what do you think that a court will uphold???

The court will uphold the initial award.

P.S. You already have alpa members on here, not US or AWA, who are asking if they can join, so what does that tell you??? Think about it???

What does that tell me? That tells me what I've already known for a very long time: that the average ALPA member is completely ignorant of how ALPA works, how the law is written, and how organized labor in general works. I wonder how many Local Council meetings the members who are calling for decertification have actually been to? I wonder if they've voted in all of the elections? I wonder if they told their reps how they wanted them to vote in the Officer elections at the last BOD?

The membership is apathetic and irresponsible, and now they want to cry foul and blame the organization for their problems. I call BS.

 

[PHXFLYR]

And I would fully expect the West MEC to tell Prater and the East MEC to pound sand. East pilots didn't seem to be willing to negotiate anything with the West other than DOH prior to mutually-agreed binding arbitration. ...

We already did,for the reasons you just mentioned.

PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

However, that said, its face, I do believe that leaving (de-certifying) ALPA will 'nullify' the award, as this process was done under 'ALPA merger policy' by agreement by the ALPA MECs and ALPA national.

Railway Labor Act governs this. All previous Collective Bargaining Agreements remain in effect even during a change in representation. The Nicolau Award falls under this provision. Even the AAA's understand that changing the union won't change the Award. They seek to delay its implementation indefinitely.

 

[TWA Dude]

"Mutually agreed" is a little misleading. The Admin Manual doesn't allow you to refuse arbitration. If you are unable to reach a consensual agreement, then the matter automatically goes to binding arbitration.

And you're being a little misleading. If they didn't want binding arbitration they would've come to an agreement. They rolled the dice same as we did.

The lack of integrity is coming from the AWA MEC refusing to admit that they received a windfall in this award.

You've got a lot of nerve taking your personal opinion and making it into an integrity issue for our MEC. The two pilot neutrals agreed with Nicolau's reasoning almost 100%. There's no windfall; just unreasonable expectations by one side.

I do agree that a lawsuit is not the right way to go, but trying to work within the system to get a new award is what I would expect my MEC to do under the circumstances.

If they were truly "working within the system" rather than trying to circumvent it they would accept the Award and get on with the Joint Negotiations.

 

[TWA Dude]

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

They sold us out and we're five years into a DFR lawsuit with no end in sight. But I'm a pragmatist. I've been a Teamster, ALPA, and APA, and they're all equally screwed-up. Changing unions will solve nothing and may even make our lives worse. Emotion is usually a poor motivator for pilots.

 

[ferlo]

I agree that ALPA is doomed sluggish dinosaur, however This action will not change a single thing regarding the nicolau award.

 

[PCL_128]

And you're being a little misleading. If they didn't want binding arbitration they would've come to an agreement.

Hard to come to an agreement when the other side won't "play ball." Like I said, the only two options were to cave, or to go to binding arbitration. Not good options.

They rolled the dice same as we did.You've got a lot of nerve taking your personal opinion and making it into an integrity issue for our MEC. The two pilot neutrals agreed with Nicolau's reasoning almost 100%. There's no windfall; just unreasonable expectations by one side.

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous), but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award. Guys at AWA that had no hope of ever being widebody pilots will now get left seat in a widebody while the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

If they were truly "working within the system" rather than trying to circumvent it they would accept the Award and get on with the Joint Negotiations.

This gets back to the same discussion that you and I had on a previous thread. The question is whether ALPA merger policy was followed. Reasonable people can disagree on that issue. The AAA MEC believes that merger policy was not followed (due to the no windfall clause), so expecting them to just "move on" is unreasonable.

 

[BoilerUP]

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous), but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award. Guys at AWA that had no hope of ever being widebody pilots will now get left seat in a widebody while the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

Why do you think West pilots got a windfall in this award?

Then why didn't the East MEC make a reasonable merger proposal other than DOH...perhaps one with a relative seniority integration for active pilots including a 5 year fence for East pilots on the current number of widebody/international pilot positions?

Both sides had a choice - work an agreement out between each other or go to arbitration. Sure seems like the East thought they'd prevail in the latter, but since they didn't want a mulligan to try the former...

 

[TWA Dude]

Hard to come to an agreement when the other side won't "play ball." Like I said, the only two options were to cave, or to go to binding arbitration. Not good options.

The AWA MEC had the same option. If two sides can't agree exactly how would you propose a fair way of coming to a solution? Remember, fair means non-political and neutral.

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous),...

Thank you for saying that. If most Easties agreed we wouldn't be in this fine mess. You're letting them off way too easy.

...but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award.

Once again you confuse fact with opinion. Arbitrators are deemed qualified to make these determinations.

... the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

That's because of USAirways shriking to almost half-size, not the Nic Award. The only way for them to regain their captain seats is at the expense of AWA pilots. When the old USAirways became the new USAirways the fact that every FO on the property is a former captain became irrelevent. All future upgrades should be shared in an equitable fashion. That's what Nic aimed to do.

Reasonable people can disagree on that issue.

You're right. So stop presenting your opinions as facts.

The AAA MEC believes that merger policy was not followed (due to the no windfall clause), so expecting them to just "move on" is unreasonable.

The EC will rule that ALPA Merger Policy was followed (if it wasn't, they would've said so already). That's why the Easties sued and are trying to extort concessions from the Westies.

 

[PCL_128]

Then why didn't the East MEC make a reasonable merger proposal other than DOH..

The AAA MEC did as their pilots directed. Maybe they should have worked to convince their pilot group that DOH wasn't a reasonable expectation, but nevertheless, the MEC only followed the direction they received from the membership.

perhaps one with a relative seniority integration for active pilots including a 5 year fence for East pilots on the current number of widebody/international pilot positions?

I certainly wouldn't have accepted that if I were a AAA pilot. A 5-year fence? The West pilots had zero expectation of ever flying a widebody. A 15-year fence would be more like it. And that would never have been agreed to by the AWA MEC. Hence the rock and a hard place on arbitration.

 

[PCL_128]

The AWA MEC had the same option. If two sides can't agree exactly how would you propose a fair way of coming to a solution? Remember, fair means non-political and neutral.

I don't disagree with merger policy requiring arbitration. You're absolutely right that it's necessary since neither side could come to an agreement. However, the arbitrator is bound by merger policy, and the AAA MEC believes that he disregarded the "no windfall" clause. That will have to be decided by the EC or by the courts.

Thank you for saying that. If most Easties agreed we wouldn't be in this fine mess. You're letting them off way too easy.

I'm not letting them off too easy. I readily admit that the AAA group made mistakes. In my opinion, there should have been real leadership from Prater to prevent this mess.

The only way for them to regain their captain seats is at the expense of AWA pilots.

How is it at your "expense" if you never had any expectations of widebody flying in the first place? You can't lose something that you never had. All of the widebody retirements on the East would have opened up upgrade slots for AAA pilots. Now many of those slots will go to AWA pilots while Easties reach retirement age before upgrading.

The EC will rule that ALPA Merger Policy was followed

Maybe, maybe not. That is yet to be determined. If they do, then I'm afraid that the decertification effort will be successful, and that's the last thing that ALPA needs at this time. Prater plays the fiddle while ALPA burns...

 

[BoilerUP]

I certainly wouldn't have accepted that if I were a AAA pilot. A 5-year fence? The West pilots had zero expectation of ever flying a widebody. A 15-year fence would be more like it. And that would never have been agreed to by the AWA MEC. Hence the rock and a hard place on arbitration.

By your logic, East pilots had zero expectation of their company ever emerging from bankruptcy.

A 5 year fence on the currentnumber of widebody/international positions would be a far sight better for East pilots than what they got via the Nicolau decision, would it not? Besides, it would be completely unreasonable to prevent former West pilots from benefitting from any additional widebody/international growth that would take place.

The problem here is "reasonable" expectations...and on the outside looking in it certainly appears the expectations and desires of West pilots were a helluva lot more reasonable that those of their East counterparts.