USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[TWA Dude]

I realize that you did everything you were required to do under the merger policy, and you feel that the award was issued fair and square, but the Association is imploding around you because of this list.

So you feel we should take one for the team, huh? Even though the other team isn't playing by the rules? Think of the precedent this sets: any future arbitrations can be reworked by the side who feels more screwed simply by throwing a tantrum and threatening to dump ALPA.

I have been a vocal advocate for ALPA Merger Policy since I found out what it was when AA announced it was buying TWA. It's simply the fairest way to do the nasty job of integrating pilot seniority, where pilot groups negotiate as equals. You and Prater are making a mockery of it by demanding that the Westies make concessions under duress in the supposed name of unity. In my book, unity means playing by the rules even when you don't like the results.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Open this new organization up to everyone that wants to see ALPA cease to exsist and you have got my support.

Geez...some guys just don't get it. A new national union would end up having...the same guys in office that you have now.

How do I know that? By the lack of involvement that you now have in the current national union. the only guys in office are the ones that care enough to get involved.

All you would end up with is a name change

It amazes me that guys would rather change the name of their union, than work from within by getting involved.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

...BTW....don't lecture me about getting involved and invoking change. It has been tried and is being tried. You can storm the castle, but you won't get inside. That is tighter than Ft. Knox.

Now you know. I've often said...you introduce resolutions at the LEC meetings and you will find out if your ideas are in line with your peers...or if you are out in left field.

Seems the ones who have "tried" at "your house" are clearly ...out...in ...left...field...

Leadership means getting people to follow you. Looks like the peers don't want to follow...or some are just quitters.

 

[ironspud]

You and Prater are making a mockery of it by demanding that the Westies make concessions under duress in the supposed name of unity.quote]

Curious. Just what concessions is Prater demanding you guys make? Are you talking about the request that the East and West MEC's meet to hammer out some contractual agreement for fences that slides around the arbitration? (I really wouldn't blame the West MEC for deciding not to play that game - if you choose that.)

 

[TWA Dude]

[Curious. Just what concessions is Prater demanding you guys make? Are you talking about the request that the East and West MEC's meet to hammer out some contractual agreement for fences that slides around the arbitration? (I really wouldn't blame the West MEC for deciding not to play that game - if you choose that.)

Yes, he is coercing us to meet with the AAA MEC. He's applying pressure directly to our MEC Chairman and is also withholding merger expense money owed us. He's giving-in to the AAA's extortion.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Yes, he is coercing us to meet with the AAA MEC. He's applying pressure directly to our MEC Chairman and is also withholding merger expense money owed us. He's giving-in to the AAA's extortion.

Don't worry, it ain't working!!! I refuse to bend one milimeter. All the protections these babies are crying about are contained within the award. There will be no rearrangemet of the award, there will be no fences and there will be no do over!!! If they wish to decert then more power to them, hell I'll help! It will be much easier for me to go to NWA, Alaska, UAL or who ever and start over but that 56 year old capt starting over at $40/hr I don't think so. I sure hope they saved some money for unemployment or starting over cause we ain't moving!!

Burn baby burn disco enferno burn baby burn, burn the mother down!!! This is the majority of our pilots feeling. :uzi: :crying:

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

wah wah wah.

heard it before at continental, eastern, western republic, american, blah blah blah. we'll hear it again no doubt in the future. ALPA is the EASIEST party to blame. your MEC pushed and pushed and LOST in their bluff. now you blame the dealer instead of taking it like a man and accepting some responsibility.

drunk dougie is loving this show you guys are putting on.

with no AFL-CIO affilition the USAirways self union will have no voice in DC as congressman will simply go, "Who are they?" You will be whining to empty hallways.

Not to worry. Whining is what USAir "guys" do best!!


PHXFLYR

 

[CitationLover]

No comparison to what ALPA can provide. From insurance to aeromedical to the accident hotline, our independent union simply can't provide the services that come with ALPA membership. They do their best, but it just isn't in the same league.

i would disagree. these services can be subcontracted out to keep costs down. usually they are subcontracted to, gasp, ALPA.

it is the AFL-CIO affiliation where ALPA has what little pull we have in washington.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Had one guy at an old non-union company I used to fly for get the same services from AOPA for $285.00 /yr .that he used to get from alpa for over 3 times the cost in union dues. Things that make you go hmmmmm..............




PHXFLYR

 

[CitationLover]

Citation man:

I sure hope to hell you are not advocating sticking with ALPA on the merits of their pull in Washington DC?

Thanks for the good laugh.

BTW, tell that to the union members at AMR, SWA, and AAI.

A350

the carriers you mention have pull with their LOCAL congressman but not commanding what an AFL-CIO membership could accomplish. these LOCAL congressman are mostly in the pockets of management who coat their elections with campaign contributions.

what would change by going to USAirways Pilots Union? simply someone new to blame and down the line in all likelihood you'll come back to ALPA, a la continental.

ALPA's pull in DC, along with ANY organized labor, during this administration is relatively little. this has nothing to do with ALPA and more to do with the (R) after Bush's name.

 

[kwick]

As an outsider with no dog in this fight, I think the AW guys should allow all positions opened up by US Air retirements to go to US Air pilots. That was their career expectation that the arbitrator overlooked.

 

[abefly]

As an outsider with no dog in this fight, I think the AW guys should allow all positions opened up by US Air retirements to go to US Air pilots. That was their career expectation that the arbitrator overlooked.

Their career expectation was the street!!! 2 weeks from liquidation...thats what he took into consideration!

 

[CitationLover]

just curious, but what was the negotiated seniority integration for AWA-TWA? some TWA guys left me with the impression that this was almost a done deal and the integration was laid out before AA swooped in.

 

[kwick]

Obviously, He was wrong. They're still here.

 

[737 Pylt]

Don't worry, it ain't working!!! I refuse to bend one milimeter.

Unless of course HPilot is in the room!:laugh:

All the protections these babies are crying about are contained within the award. There will be no rearrangemet of the award, there will be no fences and there will be no do over!!! If they wish to decert then more power to them, hell I'll help! It will be much easier for me to go to NWA, Alaska, UAL or who ever and start over but that 56 year old capt starting over at $40/hr I don't think so. I sure hope they saved some money for unemployment or starting over cause we ain't moving!!

You mean like when the Air Wisconsin pilots who's money was stollen and invested in USAir first so AWAC pilots should be above seniority of all AWA pilots. It wasn't AWA that swooped to the rescue. It was AWAC/EASTSHORE AVIATION! You make it seem like you rescued US Airways from the ashes!

I think you better re consider your position....Or is your handyman business getting in the way of normal thinking!?

Burn baby burn disco enferno burn baby burn, burn the mother down!!! This is the majority of our pilots feeling. :uzi: :crying:

WD.

I'm sure that when you put on your leather chaps, and hit the town with phxflyr, hpilot and the rest of the cactus clowns, you probably have that "lovin feeling!":laugh: :blush:

737

 

[TWA Dude]

just curious, but what was the negotiated seniority integration for AWA-TWA? some TWA guys left me with the impression that this was almost a done deal and the integration was laid out before AA swooped in.

There were no negotiatons between AWA and TWA MECs.

 

[PCL_128]

i would disagree. these services can be subcontracted out to keep costs down. usually they are subcontracted to, gasp, ALPA.

No they can't. The services I mentioned are not available through ALPA Services Agreements. The NPA has a services agreement with ALPA for various things including negotiations training and E & FA data, but things like Aeromedical, Insurance, and the accident hotline are not available as "a la carte" items. In my opinion, the accident hotline was the most valuable service that ALPA provided. One phone call has lawyers, investigators, CIRP, etc... all available to you. Invaluable.

it is the AFL-CIO affiliation where ALPA has what little pull we have in washington.

Not totally. ALPA also has pull in DC through PAC contributions with ALPA-PAC. The ALPA legislative affairs department is top notch, also. AFL-CIO affiliation is certainly important, but a lot of ALPA's work on the hill is accomplished without any involvement from the AFL. Coincidentally, PAC contributions can't be made by anyone except members in Active status, so that's another thing you're locked out of as an independent union.

 

[Green]

I'm sure that when you put on your leather chaps, and hit the town with phxflyr, hpilot and the rest of the cactus clowns, you probably have that "lovin feeling!":laugh: :blush:

737

what's up with all the dis-respect? Aren't we all fighting for the same thing? Restore the profession and make this a job worth having?

 

[CitationLover]

No they can't. The services I mentioned are not available through ALPA Services Agreements. The NPA has a services agreement with ALPA for various things including negotiations training and E & FA data, but things like Aeromedical, Insurance, and the accident hotline are not available as "a la carte" items. In my opinion, the accident hotline was the most valuable service that ALPA provided. One phone call has lawyers, investigators, CIRP, etc... all available to you. Invaluable.

Insurance can be self insured and handled through any large insurance company, this is what ALPA does.

Aeromedical certainly can be a la carte. How does ALPA get its services? From VFS (a subcontractor's website - http://www.aviationmedicine.com/content/index.cfm?fuseaction=showContent&contentID=3&navID=3)

Company Story

Virtual Flight Surgeons Inc. is a privately-owned company founded in 1997 with operations based in Aurora, Colorado. It was created in response to a need in the general and business aviation communities to provide aeromedical assistance to pilots. The physicians of VFS provide the same services to the Airline Pilots Association (ALPA) through the Aviation Medicine Advisory Service (AMAS), which has delivered those services to unionized pilots all over the globe since 1969.

The co-founders, Dr. Quay Snyder and Dr. Keith Martin, initially operated the company on a part-time basis, growing on word-of-mouth referrals from satisfied clients. Dr. Donald Hudson and Mr. JB Holston also co-founded the company, providing business consultation as Board of Director members. In 2003, the company branched out into the air traffic controller community, providing contract services to the National Air Traffic Controller Association (NATCA).

The company has since become a full-time entity, providing services to a wide range of corporate, private and unionized clients. Through annual safety seminars and conventions, speaking engagements, safety council memberships and an internet presence nationally known for it's aeromedical excellence, VFS has established itself throughout the aviation medicine community.

The company continues to follow a growth model, expanding services and emerging in new markets to provide service. Since it's inception, the company has maintained over 70% growth annually. The company continues to carry out it's goal to be the premier source for aeromedical information and FAA medical certification assistance.

The accident hotline you got me on. ALPA's experience in these matters is second to none.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Unless of course HPilot is in the room!:laugh:



You mean like when the Air Wisconsin pilots who's money was stollen and invested in USAir first so AWAC pilots should be above seniority of all AWA pilots. It wasn't AWA that swooped to the rescue. It was AWAC/EASTSHORE AVIATION! You make it seem like you rescued US Airways from the ashes!

I think you better re consider your position....Or is your handyman business getting in the way of normal thinking!?



I'm sure that when you put on your leather chaps, and hit the town with phxflyr, hpilot and the rest of the cactus clowns, you probably have that "lovin feeling!":laugh: :blush:

737

Sore subject with me as I was with AWAC and one of the ones who was stolen from!!!

Now that we have established that, understand that the three amigos (AWAC excutives) do nothing unless it benefits them!!! They put up $125 million dollars but did so after they were well informed as to the future plan. They had to have been told about it before they put that amount of cash on the table. Now at the rate the east was burning thru cash that small amount of money would have lasted them all but 30 days, MAYBE!!!

WD.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Had one guy at an old non-union company I used to fly for get the same services from AOPA for $285.00 /yr .that he used to get from alpa for over 3 times the cost in union dues. Things that make you go hmmmmm..............




PHXFLYR

ALPA has 60,000 members... AOPA has 412,000. Do the math. In addition, AOPA members want to fly J-3 cubs and get $100 hamburgers (dramatized for effect).

ALPA members want to feed thier family...and pay the mortgage.....


Get it?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Geez...some guys just don't get it. A new national union would end up having...the same guys in office that you have now.

The new union in its constitution and by-laws could easily and clearly exclude any former ALPA leaderhip member from a new leadership position in order to encourage new thinking in the new organization. ie. the debathification of iraq.

It is also foolish to think that change from within can create the revolution ALPA needs to actually place ALPA's focus on it's pilots and not on the continued ALPA Herdon empire that does not represent pilots needs.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Rez's argument of ALPA's failures rests on poor member participation.

What Rez fails to mention is the facts that have lead to poor member participation. Those being the continual disregard, disenfranchisement, and disrespect for the members by the leadership.

Its hard to get the support the leadership needs when the leadership leads with the slogan, " The beatings will continue until moral improves."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Absolutely incredible!

So you want to jump out of the life boat and into another....cause that life boat isn't the one your in.

Look at you guys.... you do almost nothing in terms of union work.... then when your world implodes all of a sudden you are ready to put so much time and energy into the effort. But now that effort is to decertify. This is simply addressing the symptoms and not the disease..... You are trying to but a band aid on cancer....

In addition, everyone is using a different measuring stick. A measuring stick called ME. Of course no one is going to be happy when they expect ALPA to a personal valet.

Band aids on cancer will not solve your problems. You can divorce your wife and leave your kids... find a new family but that won't solve your problems cause you brought the problems with you.... which happen to be you.... So in a short time all the same issues will resurface and you'll be decertifying USAPA.

Here is the cure.

One of Praters and Woerths problems is/was they did not unify the MECs and hence the pilots. We have more war-ing factions than Iraq. Like a typical dysfunctional family we are all working against each other looking out for number 1. That is the leadership failure on ALPA's part....


Now let's talk about your failure.....

The reason why all of this is going on is because you do not understand how it works. You may think that because you are a 20+ year ALPA member you know union affairs, but you simply do not. This reality is the truth and the sooner you realize it the better.

The fact is... you neglect your careers until the structure crumbles and now you are spending so much time trying to save what is left... whereas if you simply but a little effort proactively over the years we'd have manageable problems....


The situation is so FUBAR at this point guys don't know what to do....but what are you going to do? Self destruct? Re-package your problems and declare all is well? I've seen nothing on the USAPA webpage that addressing the disease. It is only a big box of band-aids....

It is time to stop reacting and start working to effect positive change.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The new union in its constitution and by-laws could easily and clearly exclude any former ALPA leaderhip member from a new leadership position in order to encourage new thinking in the new organization. ie. the debathification of iraq.

So much for democracy....

And who is going to write the new CBL? You? All of your ideas involve ohters doing the work...

It is also foolish to think that change from within can create the revolution ALPA needs to actually place ALPA's focus on it's pilots and not on the continued ALPA Herdon empire that does not represent pilots needs.

Your thinking so so screw up... ALPA's focus on pilots? No what you mean is ALPA's focus on ME. ALPA cannot be a personal career servant for 60,000 pilots.

In totalitarian gov'ts no once complains about their rights being violated because they'd rather keep thier head. Or in a company... everyone wants to keep thier job.....

But to function in a democracy takes real skill....

What do you not get?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez's argument of ALPA's failures rests on poor member participation.

no. that is what I offer as one peice of the puzzle.

What Rez fails to mention is the facts that have lead to poor member participation. Those being the continual disregard, disenfranchisement, and disrespect for the members by the leadership.

So you are not a leader? You are just a disastified sheep chewing sod?

Its hard to get the support the leadership needs when the leadership leads with the slogan, " The beatings will continue until moral improves."

The beatings will continue until membership partication improves...

Back to your sod....

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Absolutely incredible!

So you want to jump out of the life boat and into another....cause that life boat isn't the one your in.

Because the first life boat is going the wrong direction.

Look at you guys.... you do almost nothing in terms of union work.... But now that effort is to decertify. This is simply addressing the symptoms and not the disease..... You are trying to but a band aid on cancer....

I have done my share. I have volunteered, participated and invested the time only to see each issue of concern go south.

In addition, everyone is using a different measuring stick. A measuring stick called ME.

And after ALPA polls and surveys its members with scientific accuracy and the majority say go this way, ALPA says they know better and goes the opposite way. Age 60 clearly shows ALPA using that ME ruler you describe.

Band aids on cancer will not solve your problems. You can divorce your wife and leave your kids... find a new family but that won't solve your problems cause you brought the problems with you.... which happen to be you....

What makes you so sure ALPA is not the problem?

Here is the cure.

One of Praters and Woerths problems is/was they did not unify the MECs and hence the pilots. We have more war-ing factions than Iraq. Like a typical dysfunctional family we are all working against each other looking out for number 1. That is the leadership failure on ALPA's part....

That boat sailed. Now ALPA needs to pay the price of that failure.

Now let's talk about your failure.....

You may think that because you are a 20+ year ALPA member you know union affairs, but you simply do not.

Membership maturity is not the issue. Mature members have many strips on their backs with the scars to prove ALPA's abuse.

The situation is so FUBAR at this point guys don't know what to do.

And a fresh start is a wonderful place to begin.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The beatings will continue until membership partication improves...

Or the leadership inflicting those beatings is removed for just cause because ALPA is a beating machine.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So much for democracy....

ALPA is not a democratic organization. ALPA is an oligopoly trying to be all things to all members while in reality only serving those that are in Herdon.

ALPA's focus on pilots? No what you mean is ALPA's focus on ME.

No ALPA has completely screwed everyone within +-5 years of my date of hire and demographic to the benefit of those that have just retired or are about to retire.

In totalitarian gov'ts no once complains about their rights being violated because they'd rather keep thier head. Or in a company... everyone wants to keep thier job.

And ALPA as an organization is unwilling to make a stand for its members if that stand should ever undermine ALPA's empire.

But to function in a democracy takes real skill....

What do you not get?

And that real skill you refer too is political paralysis that makes the ALPA such poison for the membership.

ALPA leadership has repeatedly left the truth at the curb so much for so long ALPA leadership doesn't even recognize truth any longer.

ALPA has become so political it has reduced it self to that of a government official or more like a used car sales man.

ALPA doesn't care about people. ALPA cares about ALPA.

 

[stlflyguy]

Lucky has some great points.

One needs to look no further than the TWA/AA deal than to find where ALPA totally abandoned 2400 constituents. That wasn't an ALPA to ALPA merger. The TWA guys should have had the full support of this "60,000 member gorilla." ALPA did more to represent the Midwest pilots and their talks with the NPA then they did for the TWA pilots--and we're talking about Prater's ONE press release advising the NPA to consider joining ALPA.

Again--it's very hard to get behind ALPA when it comes to representational issues when they've tainted their own record with issues like Pan Am and now, quite blatantly, TWA.

stlflyguy