USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[TWA Dude]

However, that said, its face, I do believe that leaving (de-certifying) ALPA will 'nullify' the award, as this process was done under 'ALPA merger policy' by agreement by the ALPA MECs and ALPA national.

Railway Labor Act governs this. All previous Collective Bargaining Agreements remain in effect even during a change in representation. The Nicolau Award falls under this provision. Even the AAA's understand that changing the union won't change the Award. They seek to delay its implementation indefinitely.

 

[TWA Dude]

"Mutually agreed" is a little misleading. The Admin Manual doesn't allow you to refuse arbitration. If you are unable to reach a consensual agreement, then the matter automatically goes to binding arbitration.

And you're being a little misleading. If they didn't want binding arbitration they would've come to an agreement. They rolled the dice same as we did.

The lack of integrity is coming from the AWA MEC refusing to admit that they received a windfall in this award.

You've got a lot of nerve taking your personal opinion and making it into an integrity issue for our MEC. The two pilot neutrals agreed with Nicolau's reasoning almost 100%. There's no windfall; just unreasonable expectations by one side.

I do agree that a lawsuit is not the right way to go, but trying to work within the system to get a new award is what I would expect my MEC to do under the circumstances.

If they were truly "working within the system" rather than trying to circumvent it they would accept the Award and get on with the Joint Negotiations.

 

[TWA Dude]

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

They sold us out and we're five years into a DFR lawsuit with no end in sight. But I'm a pragmatist. I've been a Teamster, ALPA, and APA, and they're all equally screwed-up. Changing unions will solve nothing and may even make our lives worse. Emotion is usually a poor motivator for pilots.

 

[ferlo]

I agree that ALPA is doomed sluggish dinosaur, however This action will not change a single thing regarding the nicolau award.

 

[PCL_128]

And you're being a little misleading. If they didn't want binding arbitration they would've come to an agreement.

Hard to come to an agreement when the other side won't "play ball." Like I said, the only two options were to cave, or to go to binding arbitration. Not good options.

They rolled the dice same as we did.You've got a lot of nerve taking your personal opinion and making it into an integrity issue for our MEC. The two pilot neutrals agreed with Nicolau's reasoning almost 100%. There's no windfall; just unreasonable expectations by one side.

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous), but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award. Guys at AWA that had no hope of ever being widebody pilots will now get left seat in a widebody while the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

If they were truly "working within the system" rather than trying to circumvent it they would accept the Award and get on with the Joint Negotiations.

This gets back to the same discussion that you and I had on a previous thread. The question is whether ALPA merger policy was followed. Reasonable people can disagree on that issue. The AAA MEC believes that merger policy was not followed (due to the no windfall clause), so expecting them to just "move on" is unreasonable.

 

[BoilerUP]

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous), but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award. Guys at AWA that had no hope of ever being widebody pilots will now get left seat in a widebody while the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

Why do you think West pilots got a windfall in this award?

Then why didn't the East MEC make a reasonable merger proposal other than DOH...perhaps one with a relative seniority integration for active pilots including a 5 year fence for East pilots on the current number of widebody/international pilot positions?

Both sides had a choice - work an agreement out between each other or go to arbitration. Sure seems like the East thought they'd prevail in the latter, but since they didn't want a mulligan to try the former...

 

[TWA Dude]

Hard to come to an agreement when the other side won't "play ball." Like I said, the only two options were to cave, or to go to binding arbitration. Not good options.

The AWA MEC had the same option. If two sides can't agree exactly how would you propose a fair way of coming to a solution? Remember, fair means non-political and neutral.

I agree that the East had some unreasonable expectations (expecting DOH when it's nowhere to be found in current merger policy is a little ridiculous),...

Thank you for saying that. If most Easties agreed we wouldn't be in this fine mess. You're letting them off way too easy.

...but that doesn't change the fact that the West came out way ahead on this award.

Once again you confuse fact with opinion. Arbitrators are deemed qualified to make these determinations.

... the East pilots will be retiring before ever seeing the left seat of anything in USAir colors.

That's because of USAirways shriking to almost half-size, not the Nic Award. The only way for them to regain their captain seats is at the expense of AWA pilots. When the old USAirways became the new USAirways the fact that every FO on the property is a former captain became irrelevent. All future upgrades should be shared in an equitable fashion. That's what Nic aimed to do.

Reasonable people can disagree on that issue.

You're right. So stop presenting your opinions as facts.

The AAA MEC believes that merger policy was not followed (due to the no windfall clause), so expecting them to just "move on" is unreasonable.

The EC will rule that ALPA Merger Policy was followed (if it wasn't, they would've said so already). That's why the Easties sued and are trying to extort concessions from the Westies.

 

[PCL_128]

Then why didn't the East MEC make a reasonable merger proposal other than DOH..

The AAA MEC did as their pilots directed. Maybe they should have worked to convince their pilot group that DOH wasn't a reasonable expectation, but nevertheless, the MEC only followed the direction they received from the membership.

perhaps one with a relative seniority integration for active pilots including a 5 year fence for East pilots on the current number of widebody/international pilot positions?

I certainly wouldn't have accepted that if I were a AAA pilot. A 5-year fence? The West pilots had zero expectation of ever flying a widebody. A 15-year fence would be more like it. And that would never have been agreed to by the AWA MEC. Hence the rock and a hard place on arbitration.

 

[PCL_128]

The AWA MEC had the same option. If two sides can't agree exactly how would you propose a fair way of coming to a solution? Remember, fair means non-political and neutral.

I don't disagree with merger policy requiring arbitration. You're absolutely right that it's necessary since neither side could come to an agreement. However, the arbitrator is bound by merger policy, and the AAA MEC believes that he disregarded the "no windfall" clause. That will have to be decided by the EC or by the courts.

Thank you for saying that. If most Easties agreed we wouldn't be in this fine mess. You're letting them off way too easy.

I'm not letting them off too easy. I readily admit that the AAA group made mistakes. In my opinion, there should have been real leadership from Prater to prevent this mess.

The only way for them to regain their captain seats is at the expense of AWA pilots.

How is it at your "expense" if you never had any expectations of widebody flying in the first place? You can't lose something that you never had. All of the widebody retirements on the East would have opened up upgrade slots for AAA pilots. Now many of those slots will go to AWA pilots while Easties reach retirement age before upgrading.

The EC will rule that ALPA Merger Policy was followed

Maybe, maybe not. That is yet to be determined. If they do, then I'm afraid that the decertification effort will be successful, and that's the last thing that ALPA needs at this time. Prater plays the fiddle while ALPA burns...

 

[BoilerUP]

I certainly wouldn't have accepted that if I were a AAA pilot. A 5-year fence? The West pilots had zero expectation of ever flying a widebody. A 15-year fence would be more like it. And that would never have been agreed to by the AWA MEC. Hence the rock and a hard place on arbitration.

By your logic, East pilots had zero expectation of their company ever emerging from bankruptcy.

A 5 year fence on the currentnumber of widebody/international positions would be a far sight better for East pilots than what they got via the Nicolau decision, would it not? Besides, it would be completely unreasonable to prevent former West pilots from benefitting from any additional widebody/international growth that would take place.

The problem here is "reasonable" expectations...and on the outside looking in it certainly appears the expectations and desires of West pilots were a helluva lot more reasonable that those of their East counterparts.