USAirways effort to de-certify ALPA

[PCL_128]

By your logic, East pilots had zero expectation of their company ever emerging from bankruptcy.

It's doubtful that AWA could have survived without a merger, so I put both airlines on a level playing field with that. Nicalau disagreed, but many would argue that he shouldn't even be looking at hypotheticals anyway.

A 5 year fence on the currentnumber of widebody/international positions would be a far sight better for East pilots than what they got via the Nicolau decision, would it not?

True, but we now have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. The AAA MEC certainly expected a better outcome than what they got. I was shocked at the decision, and I'm sure most of the AAA leadership was as well.

Besides, it would be completely unreasonable to prevent former West pilots from benefitting from any additional widebody/international growth that would take place.

It's not unprecedented at all. The Northwest/Republic merger resulted in a fence of nearly 20 years that kept the "green book" Republic pilots out of the wide bodies. The Republic pilots had no expectations of ever flying that size of equipment, so they weren't entitled to the slots until the "red book" pilots had their chance. Seems perfectly fair to me.

The problem here is "reasonable" expectations...and on the outside looking in it certainly appears the expectations and desires of West pilots were a helluva lot more reasonable that those of their East counterparts.

Agreed, but that doesn't really factor in to what the EC and the courts will look at when determining whether merger policy was properly adhered to.

 

[CitationLover]

ALPA needs to be held accountable.

ALPA has completely failed this profession since 1998.

ALPA is about is perserving ALPA and working for ALPA not the pilots.

let's see....

i am sure the eastern folks would disagree with your "since 1998" comment.

i am sure the TWA folks would agree since they are still suing ALPA for misrepresentation and salivating over bringing the APA back in.

i am sure the PanAm pilots who successfully sued ALPA and their own MEC for their Delta "integration" would disagree with you regarding the 1998 comment.

during the 80's we heard blue skies and b-scales were "allowed" by ALPA / APA and they were at fault.

etc etc etc

ALPA is the convenient scapegoat in our world. This ain't original (check out http://www.aepa.org) and it won't be the last time it will happen.

 

[TWA Dude]

However, the arbitrator is bound by merger policy, and the AAA MEC believes that he disregarded the "no windfall" clause.

Right, they disagree with Nic's ruling. Same difference. Nic clearly explained his reasoning and his view that he was following Policy. The AAA MEC has the burden of proof that Nic didn't follow policy. I read the Complaint and it was simply a rehash of what Nic already heard and ruled on. Nuff said.

That will have to be decided by the EC or by the courts.

Based on what our EVP has said I'm not worried about the EC and I highly doubt the courts will touch this. We'll see.

How is it at your "expense" if you never had any expectations of widebody flying in the first place?

First, on the snapshot date we had x number of firm aircraft deliveries which equals x number of expected captain upgrades. AAA was still downgrading, furloughing and losing airplanes. You're right about our widebody expectations which is why there's a fence and no bump-and-flush.

If they do, then I'm afraid that the decertification effort will be successful, and that's the last thing that ALPA needs at this time. Prater plays the fiddle while ALPA burns...

And if the EC overturns the Award you can bet the West will do the same to protest ALPA Policy not being followed. You'd expect nothing less, right?

It's doubtful that AWA could have survived without a merger, so I put both airlines on a level playing field with that.

Prove it! It's amazing propaganda that AWA in 2005 went from marginally profitable and paying off its debt to "not expected to survive". Horsecookies! Airlines survive for years and years while losing money all the while. There were no financial analysts predicting AWA's demise in 2005 (at least not more than all the other majors).

The AAA MEC certainly expected a better outcome than what they got.

Considering how much warning Nicolau gave them they shouldn't have. And BTW, why don't you think they gave their pilots the same access to the hearing transcripts that the West did?

The Northwest/Republic merger resulted in a fence of nearly 20 years...

Yes, and the result was decades of strife (same as TWA/Ozark). We knew before this arbitration that long-term fences are out of the question. They don't want the process to drag out so long anymore.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

This ain't original (check out http://www.aepa.org) and it won't be the last time it will happen.

So why doesn't the AEPA.org get together with the USAPA.org and collectively put some more pressure on ALPA?

Looks like AEPA has 66% of the support of they need. If AEPA is encouraged by USAPA, the AEPA might just get the 100% they need and vice versa concerning the USAPA.

 

[FDJ2]

i am sure the PanAm pilots who successfully sued ALPA and their own MEC for their Delta "integration" would disagree with you regarding the 1998 comment.

Just to be accurate, some Pan Am pilots settled with ALPA, the ones who saw their case through lost in court and both lawsuits had very little to do with their "integration" with Delta, but very much to do with their not getting the opportunity to come over to Delta.

 

[BigMotorToter]

alpa won't change, refuses to. alpa is out for alpa, and corrupts anyone who get involved with it. alpa is toooooo 'political' and case in point is the age 60 deal. Every previous 'poll' of the membership showed "70-75%" against changing age 60; so what does alpa do, create a new poll and 'write the questions to get the desired results.' That sounds pretty much like most political campaigns do, right???

If you think that alpa will 'accept' change and will become more receptive to its members, then I think you are just 'dreaming.'

ALPA MUST GO!!

DA

P.S. I guess they sure helped you 'ex-TWA' guys right?

ALPA didn't help this ex-TWA guy. I say F*** ALPA!!!!

 

[waveflyer]

Sounds like the East has been unflinching in wanting date of hire whether it's with United or now America West.

What you really want is the security of a national seniority list. I think you should all be honest about that. I also think you have wanted USAir to have been better managed throughout the years- You're upset that you've been "married", by seniority, to a company that has not done well for no fault of your own.

How many lives have to be turned upside down by this current system- where our experience counts for nothing if we change companies?? We can all fight each other endlessly or start working toward a solution. Right now- management is finding newer and more creative ways to leverage seniority against us.

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA didn't help this ex-TWA guy. I say F*** ALPA!!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nobody leaves ALPA until the TWA pilots have won the suit and the membership has paid up! :beer:

stlflyguy

 

[HomerJ]

If Doug and the boys had let USAir alone and let it die like it deserved, we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Unfortunately, no airline of any considerable size, no matter how dismal, is allowed to fail anymore.

 

[A350]

I just printed the form, filled it out, and sent it in.

ALPA's failures are numerous, and they continue unabated.

Listening to Prater's video made my flesh crawl....the veil of a threat if ALPA is decertified...the condescending tone, and of course the statement that we need to defend "ALPA and the profession" in that order...

The main problem with ALPA is that they have somehow placed themselves (the association) ahead of the profession. ALPA should be willing to put themselves (the association) on the line to better the profession, just like they expect you the line grunt to put your professional career and family security on the line in the event of a work stoppage.

ALPA's failure in the merger/frag provisions has been a glaring example of how they do business. They are a "neutral" in the whole process. That is pure, unadulterated BS. They should be neck deep in what happens when two ALPA groups merge or one if fragged into another. The failure started with the second route transfer from Pan Am to UAL and it continued with the DAL purchase of the last bits of Pan Am. This is just a continuation of the same failed policy, which is don't get your hands dirty sorting it out, because then you can be sued and held responsible.

ALPA is unwilling to put their necks out for anything...they refuse to fight the many government incursions into our professional lives (security screening and drug testing come to mind)....even more so since the AMR guys got spanked by the Fed judge in Dallas after their little sickout. (Which is BS also) The RLA needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the union needs to put it's money where it's mouth is. Now we have cabotage, foreign ownership, and age 60......watch what the association does now.

When ALPA gets its hands dirty defending the profession from swirling down the bowl, let me know.

Until then....BTW....don't lecture me about getting involved and invoking change. It has been tried and is being tried. You can storm the castle, but you won't get inside. That is tighter than Ft. Knox.


A350

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Forget recalling Darth Prater. Recall ALPA!

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I just printed the form, filled it out, and sent it in.

ALPA's failures are numerous, and they continue unabated.

Listening to Prater's video made my flesh crawl....the veil of a threat if ALPA is decertified...the condescending tone, and of course the statement that we need to defend "ALPA and the profession" in that order...

The main problem with ALPA is that they have somehow placed themselves (the association) ahead of the profession. ALPA should be willing to put themselves (the association) on the line to better the profession, just like they expect you the line grunt to put your professional career and family security on the line in the event of a work stoppage.

ALPA's failure in the merger/frag provisions has been a glaring example of how they do business. They are a "neutral" in the whole process. That is pure, unadulterated BS. They should be neck deep in what happens when two ALPA groups merge or one if fragged into another. The failure started with the second route transfer from Pan Am to UAL and it continued with the DAL purchase of the last bits of Pan Am. This is just a continuation of the same failed policy, which is don't get your hands dirty sorting it out, because then you can be sued and held responsible.

ALPA is unwilling to put their necks out for anything...they refuse to fight the many government incursions into our professional lives (security screening and drug testing come to mind)....even more so since the AMR guys got spanked by the Fed judge in Dallas after their little sickout. (Which is BS also) The RLA needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the union needs to put it's money where it's mouth is. Now we have cabotage, foreign ownership, and age 60......watch what the association does now.

When ALPA gets its hands dirty defending the profession from swirling down the bowl, let me know.

Until then....BTW....don't lecture me about getting involved and invoking change. It has been tried and is being tried. You can storm the castle, but you won't get inside. That is tighter than Ft. Knox.


A350

Amen, Brother

DA

 

[737 Pylt]

If Doug and the boys had let USAir alone and let it die like it deserved, we wouldn't be talking about any of this. Unfortunately, no airline of any considerable size, no matter how dismal, is allowed to fail anymore.

I wonder if you'd feel the same way if you replace the name Us Airways with Jet Blue?
But then again, it doesn't affect your airline does it? At least not yet anyway!!

737

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I signed my form and sent it in. I still don't know if i'll accept recall but, <shrug> If nothing else it will make interesting reading on Flightinfo.com over the coming months and years.

 

[gutshotdraw]

When ALPA gets its hands dirty defending the profession from swirling down the bowl, let me know.


A350

Ooops. Too late.....

 

[CitationLover]

Just to be accurate, some Pan Am pilots settled with ALPA, the ones who saw their case through lost in court and both lawsuits had very little to do with their "integration" with Delta, but very much to do with their not getting the opportunity to come over to Delta.

which conveniently the senior PanAm MEC and negotiators did go over and hence the lawsuits from what i had heard and why they sues their own MEC in addition to ALPA national. this is what i meant by integration (those who were allowed to be integrated as it was not everyone).

 

[CitationLover]

I just printed the form, filled it out, and sent it in.

ALPA's failures are numerous, and they continue unabated.

Listening to Prater's video made my flesh crawl....the veil of a threat if ALPA is decertified...the condescending tone, and of course the statement that we need to defend "ALPA and the profession" in that order...

The main problem with ALPA is that they have somehow placed themselves (the association) ahead of the profession. ALPA should be willing to put themselves (the association) on the line to better the profession, just like they expect you the line grunt to put your professional career and family security on the line in the event of a work stoppage.

ALPA's failure in the merger/frag provisions has been a glaring example of how they do business. They are a "neutral" in the whole process. That is pure, unadulterated BS. They should be neck deep in what happens when two ALPA groups merge or one if fragged into another. The failure started with the second route transfer from Pan Am to UAL and it continued with the DAL purchase of the last bits of Pan Am. This is just a continuation of the same failed policy, which is don't get your hands dirty sorting it out, because then you can be sued and held responsible.

ALPA is unwilling to put their necks out for anything...they refuse to fight the many government incursions into our professional lives (security screening and drug testing come to mind)....even more so since the AMR guys got spanked by the Fed judge in Dallas after their little sickout. (Which is BS also) The RLA needs to be rewritten from the ground up and the union needs to put it's money where it's mouth is. Now we have cabotage, foreign ownership, and age 60......watch what the association does now.

When ALPA gets its hands dirty defending the profession from swirling down the bowl, let me know.

Until then....BTW....don't lecture me about getting involved and invoking change. It has been tried and is being tried. You can storm the castle, but you won't get inside. That is tighter than Ft. Knox.


A350

wah wah wah.

heard it before at continental, eastern, western republic, american, blah blah blah. we'll hear it again no doubt in the future. ALPA is the EASIEST party to blame. your MEC pushed and pushed and LOST in their bluff. now you blame the dealer instead of taking it like a man and accepting some responsibility.

drunk dougie is loving this show you guys are putting on.

with no AFL-CIO affilition the USAirways self union will have no voice in DC as congressman will simply go, "Who are they?" You will be whining to empty hallways.

 

[Fast43]

It's doubtful that AWA could have survived without a merger, so I put both airlines on a level playing field with that. Nicalau disagreed, but many would argue that he shouldn't even be looking at hypotheticals anyway.

Financials aside then.......except for the top 517 east guys (who recieved a windfall) and the top part of the west list (who did not recieve a windfall) the rest of both sides have the same bidding position as before the merger. And without the merger (hypotheticaly if AAA survived) the AAA furloughed pilots would have been called back to the bottom as they are doing now. how is this not fair??? Oh yeah the returning furloughees will not be able to hold a Capt seat on the very next vacancy bid after they return!!! ............how cruel and unusual.

Also the east claims all this "attrition" (although alot will be from F/O, Furlough and Medical ranks).....to claim attrition the east merger committee needed to prove they they would have been in business long enough to realize this attrition. They tried vainly but could not convince the arbitrator of this. To this day no member of the AAA mec has provided evidence of this, i.e. a viable reorganization plan with money behind it other than a small 125 million that was offered as "exit " financing.
However there are those crack smokers that actually believe that all the money involved in this merger is what they bring to the dance. AWA didn't bring it either, However it is Doug Parker who was entrusted with this endeavor by those who had all the money as no one would give the existing Management at AAA anymore to waste.




You said
"It's not unprecedented at all. The Northwest/Republic merger resulted in a fence of nearly 20 years that kept the "green book" Republic pilots out of the wide bodies. The Republic pilots had no expectations of ever flying that size of equipment, so they weren't entitled to the slots until the "red book" pilots had their chance. Seems perfectly fair to me".


Well.......

Ask you mec for the transcripts so you can read for youself what happened. You might notice that even your own merger committee testified specificaly "Against" a 20 year fence ala Northwest/Republic. I dont need to make this up its in the legal transcripts.



quote]

 

[Soulfly]

Nobody reads the transcripts. Time consuming.
Hilarious, DOH is not part of ALPA merger policy. Not for quite a while it hasn't.
So how was merger policy not followed.
Oh windfall, you say. The top 517 slots to the east side. Hey, from my side of the fence, seems like a windfall to the east.
See, theres the problem, it's all about perspective, or lack there of.
Again, somehow, somewhere age got related to seniority.
One has nothing to do with other. Except that one little time.
As a F*(cking NEW HIRE.

 

[Donsa320]

Republic/Northwest and "fences"

There seems to be some mis-information regarding said fencing and more importantly ratios in the integration.
Yes, when we (Republic) first approached the NWA people it was clear that the NWA guys were sure we were out to steal all their women and widebody seats, not necessarily in that order. We were older on a date of hire basis. And basically that was the order in which seniority numbers were derived in the combined list. Number "One" actually went to a Republic pilot. Their (NWA) opening gambit was essentially, and I quote verbatim as close as I can....."No Republic puke will ever get his hands on a NWA widebody". And the battle was on. The merger deal had been signed in 1986 and it took until 1990 to get a combined seniority list and a combined contract. And this Republic puke almost instantly got a 747-400 bid in 1990. How, you ask? Ratios. Enough 747's had been delivered in those 3 or 4 intervening years that we (Republic pukes) got ratioed in. The same thing happened in the DC-10 and 757 fleets. The huge growth was caused by the synergy between the two former operations. Subsequent events allowed alot of that growth to be squandered. Taken private by Checkie(sp?) and Wilson took its toll with huge debt. Smacks of the Railroads in the 19th Century. As was said here, the ratio requirments of the award finally ran out in 2006. I do not recall the fences as ever being much of a factor but perhaps they were when the airline shrank back. I'm long retired and I have not heard much about it in years.

 

[eaglefly]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nobody leaves ALPA until the TWA pilots have won the suit and the membership has paid up! :beer:

stlflyguy

Unfortunately, you won't and no one will (pay up, that is).................

 

[LearLove]

has anyone else got a call lately from the Wilson center? They called me yesterday and asked some basic questions about how I feel about alpa/mec in light of these events then started in with questions about this de-certifying thing. While I'm not involved at all I thought it to be quite sneaky how they are trying to get info on this movement. Do they (APLA) think we are stupid or something???

 

[A350]

wah wah wah.

heard it before at continental, eastern, western republic, american, blah blah blah. we'll hear it again no doubt in the future. ALPA is the EASIEST party to blame. your MEC pushed and pushed and LOST in their bluff. now you blame the dealer instead of taking it like a man and accepting some responsibility.

drunk dougie is loving this show you guys are putting on.

with no AFL-CIO affilition the USAirways self union will have no voice in DC as congressman will simply go, "Who are they?" You will be whining to empty hallways.

Citation man:

I sure hope to hell you are not advocating sticking with ALPA on the merits of their pull in Washington DC?

Thanks for the good laugh.

BTW, tell that to the union members at AMR, SWA, and AAI.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

BTW, tell that to the union members at.....AAI.

I'm one of them. There's simply no comparison.

 

[A350]

PCL:

No comparison to what?

A350

 

[PCL_128]

PCL:

No comparison to what?

A350

No comparison to what ALPA can provide. From insurance to aeromedical to the accident hotline, our independent union simply can't provide the services that come with ALPA membership. They do their best, but it just isn't in the same league.

 

[MELVIS]

PCL 28 , i'm spot on with "some" of your union logic. However, you seem a bit upset at the "west" pilots. What would you have us do? We followed ALPA merger policies to a tee; the "east" would not consider any single thing proposed. Negotiations went nowhere, we were FORCED into arbritration. We were expecting nothing but DOH. We were convinced that ALPA would sell us out easy to the larger group. When the award came out; it wasn't dancing in the streets, it was RELIEF! "probably spelled that wrong, the Mom's gota get a grip." I had alot of respect for the US guys, but through this whole process it has been all about them. The "East" MEC kept them in the dark, and I don't blame the regular line pilot hating me. I mean gee, I had the transcripts the day after the hearing occured, but I still thought somehow we would get completly screwed. The "EAST" side has been put through the worst that the industry could give out. I expected leadership from the east that I thought could give us an industry LEADING contract. Not this crap the company sent out. The time for negogiating is over. We followed EXACTLY what the "East" proffered, followed ALPA, and where did that get us? I think a decertification drive would go over well here. Nobody here thinks ALPA is representing our interests either. Mergers are a mess by their nature. I still feel a hope"however small" that this will be a place where we talk about flying and our families and have a good old time flying around the world. I do have sympathy for my brothers on the other coast, but I cannot respect pilots sueing(sp) other pilots. It is an emarassement(sp) that we as a group cannot get it together to win a contract that compensates pilots as they should be. To the other(and I mean not US or AW), I'm sorry. We were to be the first and it seems that is not a priority to work on a contract during the best times we've seen since before 911. I don't really fault the US guys, do what you got to do; but beyond your little world that your MEC keeps you in, this is our time to get the money and I wonder if you can do it.

 

[PositiveRate]

PCL 128 is not a US Airways pilot - not even close. He's a PFT guy from Gulfstream who made it to Pinnacle then got involved with ALPA.

He's as far off base as can be with his assesment of the "facts" as he sees it. It's his opinion - and it's not worth the time of day. I'm not surprised in the least.

 

[ironspud]

PCL 128 is not a US Airways pilot - not even close. He's a PFT guy from Gulfstream who made it to Pinnacle then got involved with ALPA.

He's as far off base as can be with his assesment of the "facts" as he sees it. It's his opinion - and it's not worth the time of day. I'm not surprised in the least.

Amen. He's just baiting.

 

[PCL_128]

However, you seem a bit upset at the "west" pilots.

Not at all. I do think that some of the West pilots on this board have been jerks towards the Easties, though. Telling them to "just get over it" and such isn't exactly sensitive to the situation.

What would you have us do? We followed ALPA merger policies to a tee; the "east" would not consider any single thing proposed. Negotiations went nowhere, we were FORCED into arbritration. We were expecting nothing but DOH. We were convinced that ALPA would sell us out easy to the larger group. When the award came out; it wasn't dancing in the streets, it was RELIEF!

What would I have you do? I think that the only good option is for the AWA MEC to get together with Prater and Captain Stephan and try to work out a compromise on the list. I realize that you did everything you were required to do under the merger policy, and you feel that the award was issued fair and square, but the Association is imploding around you because of this list. You have almost zero chance of ever getting a combined contract at this point. Hostilities are only going to get worse over time. The only solution is to attempt to reach a new consensual agreement on the list and discard the award.

but I cannot respect pilots sueing(sp) other pilots.

Agree 100%. I don't agree with the East MEC at all on their decision to file suit. This should be worked out from within the Association.


Just to clarify, I'm not an East pilot. I'm just a former ALPA rep that spent four years doing ALPA work, and I don't want to see the only effective pilots union destroyed over something that should be able to be worked out. I was an ALPA organizer, so seeing decertification drives doesn't sit well with me.