USAirways East losing respect.

[Vne]

and far worse than what was done to the TWA pilots.

Wino your an idiot. AAA/ AWA was submitted to a NEUTRAL.He made his decision for better or worse.
TWA got the APA version of far and equitable ,BIG DIFFERENCE and much worse.

 

[Carl S.]

I would guess that the top 517 and 1000 behind them at AAA will vote yes on anything than LOA 93 till 12/09+++ because they came out ahead. Will a T/A get out, we'll see the offer on 5/09/07. After two no votes on either side, expect Prater to combine the MEC's and get a straight vote and see where that goes. One Certificate by the fall for sure, one list today and one contract, who knows, those are the facts!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Hey TD , AWAC invested in AAA before you guys did and we have a seat on the BOD there still after all the stock that was sold. Since that money came from the pilots shouldn't that mean we get in before AWA pilots? I mean, it's only fair right? Our money came before your money to save the day.

All this was being discussed on the other thread. Why the new thread? Didn't think your post would get much attention?

And TD , I am living through it. I was forced out of my base to this crappy one in PHL. I used to drive to work and now I commute off line two legs.

When you say "we have a seat on the BOD" to whom are you refering?? The AWAC pilot group or eastshore??

This particular subject was not being discussed on the other thread. The whinning to ALPA national about some preceived injustice (their realitive positions never changed) is what this thread was about. There are things that went on during this process that many don't know. We (the AWA pilot group) were treated with total disrespect since day one. They smiled in our faces telling us all along that "it's in the arbitrator's hands now and we will all have to live with it"!! So no you are not living thru that. You are not living thru the constant disrespect or the resolutions that state "regardless of the AWA MEC's position this is what you will do ALPA national"!!! When you have been dissed like that call me bro then we will really have something to converse about...

Now as for joining the list, that group is really big on reminding you of what you brought to the dance. Since you only brought RJ's then you never had any expectation of flying anything larger hence the fence around the widebody a/c.

The commute thing, I remember that all too well!! I was sitting pretty well in DEN with weekends off then almost overnight I was in ORD every trip hitting points east.

Will this mean that you will give me access back on your web board

WD.

 

[DiverDriver]

When you say "we have a seat on the BOD" to whom are you refering?? The AWAC pilot group or eastshore??

<snip>

Will this mean that you will give me access back on your web board


WD.

Oh Trick Daddy . Thanks for "putting me in my place". You see, there is always another view on every topic.

And you're not on the ban list for AirWilly so I haven't taken anything away from you. Why would you imply that?

 

[Wino]

VNE,

Run both scenarios of TWA AA and USa AWA. With and without 9/11.

In BOTH cases the twa pilots make out far better than the USair pilots. So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

The Key to a fair merger is in the fences. For all practical purposes there are none in this integration.

The APA was far more generous than the flight attendants.

Cheers
Wino

 

[steveg]

OK, I've stayed silent but that last post is just plain wrong. If the TWA pilots got the deal USAir did, there would be at least 1000 more TWA pilots at AA today. I think any TWA pilot would've taken relative seniority in a heart beat. You clearly are talking about things you do not know about. The USAir furloughess at the bottom of the list were not stapled. They are not active employees, they do not have jobs at USAir. If they come back, it will be at the bottom of the list, just like before.

The east guys were looking to be made whole after the bad things that have happened in their career. Completely understandable. The problem is, they wanted it at the expense of the west pilots. By the way, the east guys are not the only ones in this industry that have had a bad time. In fact most of us have. I've never heard one single USAir pilot have an ounce of sympathy for anyone else in this profession. I've never heard anything but complaining about how bad they have had it. Open your eyes and look around, a lot of people have had bad times.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Oh Trick Daddy . Thanks for "putting me in my place". You see, there is always another view on every topic.

And you're not on the ban list for AirWilly so I haven't taken anything away from you. Why would you imply that?

Oops, certainly wasn't my intention to put anyone in anyplace and I apologize if I gave that impression.

I thought after our last exchange on the forum that you did but truth be told I never tried log on again and after I got rid of my last desktop I lost the login and password.

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

Nobody likes to lose but we take comfort in knowing the game is played fairly.

 

[Lear70]

The east guys were looking to be made whole after the bad things that have happened in their career. Completely understandable. The problem is, they wanted it at the expense of the west pilots. By the way, the east guys are not the only ones in this industry that have had a bad time. In fact most of us have.

So let me get this straight...

You somehow think that the furloughed UAir guys should go BENEATH the 20-something that has 30+ years still left?

And that's fair HOW?

If you were a UAir guy you would be thinking the same thing...

Additionally, I fail to see how FENCES would hurt the AWA pilots. They'd still have jobs. They'd still move up the list as AWA guys retired and/or new aircraft were purchased and delivered.

The more and more I hear AWA pilots weigh in with their belief this was somehow FAIR?? the more I believe UAir guys should drag the fight out as long as they can, appeal it as far as it can be appealed, and dump ALPA in favor of teamsters (won't work long-term but will keep it tied up another year or two). Basically it gives them an artificial fence that the arbitrator SHOULD have put in place.

If they can get an extra 3-5 years out of it in their current seats, then good for them, especially with the ME-ME-ME attitude going on in the West (not all of you, but enough to p*ss me off and I don't even work there).

I've never heard one single USAir pilot have an ounce of sympathy for anyone else in this profession. I've never heard anything but complaining about how bad they have had it. Open your eyes and look around, a lot of people have had bad times.

I think that's a bit of an extreme statement to make, don't you? No need to exaggerate... We have plenty of ex-UAir guys here at AAI and they're very aware of the crap the entire industry has been faced with.

I'm not saying the UAir negotiators acted appropriately 100% of the time, but it's extremely biased towards AWA, and the best thing the AWA pilots could do is keep their mouth shut about it. Gloating will only stir the ant hill and makes the entire group look like an a*s.

 

[Heavy Set]

It seems to me this was a percentage type merger. If you were in the bottom 20 percent at Usair, you were placed in the bottom 20 percent of the new merged company I guess, regardless of doh. In reality, that seems fair since Usair was probably going to liquidate anyway.

 

[Lear70]

It's not the seniority placement that bugs me, it's the lack of fences and the way that Age 65 legislation immediately negates them.

I also don't necessarily agree that UAir was going to liquidate. There was never any hard proof of that, but evidently enough inuendo and suggestive evidence that the Arbitrator was convinced.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

It's not the seniority placement that bugs me, it's the lack of fences and the way that Age 65 legislation immediately negates them.

I also don't necessarily agree that UAir was going to liquidate. There was never any hard proof of that, but evidently enough inuendo and suggestive evidence that the Arbitrator was convinced.

What have you been asleep for the past six years??? There was no doubt that AAA was on the brink of closure at the announcement of this thing. Furloughs 18 years deep says it all bro!! Time to wake up partner...

Not one AWA post on here has been gloating rather reminding them of their very unreasonable attitudes and position from the start.

WD.

 

[BenderGonzales]

"It's not the seniority placement that bugs me, it's the lack of fences and the way that Age 65 legislation immediately negates them."

I'll add my vote to that. I'd be disappointed in the integration either way, but the lack of fences directly impacts career expectations and provides a windfall to West pilots as 50% of East will retire over the next 15 years.

 

[FDJ2]

So let me get this straight...

You somehow think that the furloughed UAir guys should go BENEATH the 20-something that has 30+ years still left?

And that's fair HOW?

What does age have to do with seniority or seniority integration? That 20 something west pilot may be a line holding B757 pilot, so yes, his seniority number brings significantly more to the table than a furloughed pilot. Whether that furloughed pilot is 20 years old or 50 years old is irrelevant.

You need to start wrapping your brains around the fact that this is a "seniority" list integration, not a "DOH" integration or "age" integration.

A DOH at either AWA or U simply determines your seniority number at your respective airlines, once your two airlines start merging what matters is your "seniority" number at what that seniority number brings to the table. Does it bring you a line holder position on the A320 or does it bring you a recall number.

 

[FDJ2]

It's not the seniority placement that bugs me, it's the lack of fences and the way that Age 65 legislation immediately negates them.

You may have a point, perhaps the arbitrator would have listened more to it if it was the main point the US pilots were trying to make.

 

[doh]

...Well ok, the list is now out. Its not doh, so lets burn down the house...

Hey, don't bring me into this! But seriously, I wish that you all can come together and deal with the real problem, your management!

 

[Lear70]

You may have a point, perhaps the arbitrator would have listened more to it if it was the main point the US pilots were trying to make.

Good point.

What does age have to do with seniority or seniority integration? That 20 something west pilot may be a line holding B757 pilot, so yes, his seniority number brings significantly more to the table than a furloughed pilot. Whether that furloughed pilot is 20 years old or 50 years old is irrelevant.

What does age have to do with it? It has EVERYTHING to do with it... IF you're the guy staring down the barrel of mandatory retirement in less than a decade.

Irrelevant? Only if you're not the 50-year old.

You need to start wrapping your brains around the fact that this is a "seniority" list integration, not a "DOH" integration or "age" integration.

Again, I don't give a rat's about DOH. What I'm concerned with is an integration that not only recognizes someone's current position, but also their future career earnings ability and addresses it.

This ruling didn't. I'm just looking at it from a sense of what's "fair". I wouldn't say the AWA pilots should have been stapled or furloughed, but without fences they just got handed a lottery ticket worth an extra $1 Million on their career earnings.

A DOH at either AWA or U simply determines your seniority number at your respective airlines, once your two airlines start merging what matters is your "seniority" number at what that seniority number brings to the table. Does it bring you a line holder position on the A320 or does it bring you a recall number.

In a more equitable solution, it would have done both, albeit slower than what the AWA pilots will see now.

It's just sad to see it slanted so heavily to one side of the table.

 

[AutoBus]

The east guys were looking to be made whole after the bad things that have happened in their career. Completely understandable. The problem is, they wanted it at the expense of the west pilots. By the way, the east guys are not the only ones in this industry that have had a bad time. In fact most of us have. I've never heard one single USAir pilot have an ounce of sympathy for anyone else in this profession. I've never heard anything but complaining about how bad they have had it. Open your eyes and look around, a lot of people have had bad times.

This post pretty much sums up my feelings, The Easties want to be made whole at the expense of the West, they looked at the merger as a chance for that to happen.

 

[AutoBus]

So let me get this straight...

You somehow think that the furloughed UAir guys should go BENEATH the 20-something that has 30+ years still left?

And that's fair HOW?

If you were a UAir guy you would be thinking the same thing...

.

You guys must just don't get it! It ain't an age thing! It ain't a DOH thing! It's about the jobs and relative seniority you brought to the table!

If you were at the bottom of the active list BEFORE the merger, you are at the BOTTOM after the merger.

I believe Dave O. is the last man on the combined active as of the date of merger, that is where he belongs that is where he is. The people below him now were recalled after the merger and that's where they belong. Why should they leapfrog Dave O.? They did not have jobs!

 

[Lear70]

Like I said... you guys want to bash the UAir guys for the way they behaved at the table, then you come out with this righteous crap that says you're somehow justified getting the huge windfall the arbitrator gave you.

You're not making your pilot group look very good. But then again, we DO live in the "Me-me-me" era of aviation. Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

Maybe we should rename the thread...

 

[CaptWidgeon]

What have you been asleep for the past six years??? There was no doubt that AAA was on the brink of closure at the announcement of this thing. Furloughs 18 years deep says it all bro!! Time to wake up partner...

WD.

i have friends at both and hear two sides of this story. about east 'probably' going out and west coming in 'days' before closure. then i hear east guys say that wasn't true, they had just gotten monies from other sources to keep them afloat. i agree that furloughs 18 yrs deep ain't good but does anyone have a source that a 3rd party could look at to show that east was about to go out? has anyone heard, or have proof, that east was paid by west at one point right at the buyout. as in if west didn't foot the bill east wasn't going to get a paycheck.

these are genuine questions so please be gentle.

 

[FDJ2]

What does age have to do with it? It has EVERYTHING to do with it... IF you're the guy staring down the barrel of mandatory retirement in less than a decade.

You need to be careful when you start to play the expectations game a decade from now. It opens up the door to more consideration of the viability of both companies at the time of the merger.

For the record I have never been a proponent of the idea that since US was a failing carrier in it's second Bankruptcy in less than 5 years the US pilots ought to be happy to have a job. Not in the least, because while they may not have brought a viable company to the party, they did bring value, which when combined with AWA has so far proven to be a winner.

I agree that longer fences may have been called for, but like I've said before, that also brings certain risks if you happen to find yourself on the wrong side of the fence when a base gets downsized or equipment goes away.


Again, I don't give a rat's about DOH. What I'm concerned with is an integration that not only recognizes someone's current position, but also their future career earnings ability and addresses it.

Like I said above, that can be a two edged sword also. Honestly, what were the expectations for US at the time of the merger? Be honest with yourself.

It's just sad to see it slanted so heavily to one side of the table.

You need to keep your perspective, in the long run I believe most fair minded people will conclude that the US pilots career expectations, given the condition of US prior to the merger, are brighter today then they were two years ago, even with this integration. Did the AWA pilots make out better in the long run too? Probably yes.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Is it true that over 50 flights cancelled at CLT yesterday for crews calling in sick?

 

[Lear70]

Honestly, what were the expectations for US at the time of the merger? Be honest with yourself.

Honestly, I never, ever have bought into the claim that UAir was 5 days away from shutting the doors permanently. I have never been shown facts that support that, just verbal claims by DP who I don't trust any further than I can throw.

I honestly have no reason to believe they wouldn't have survived in much the same way that UAL has survived. Someone will always lend money to an airline,,, it defies reason.

You need to keep your perspective, in the long run I believe most fair minded people will conclude that the US pilots career expectations, given the condition of US prior to the merger, are brighter today then they were two years ago, even with this integration. Did the AWA pilots make out better in the long run too? Probably yes.

I honestly don't know if I agree with that. US pilots' career expectations, assuming the carrier would have remained in business, would probably be much better than they will be once they're bumped out of their widebody seats in the last 5-10 years of their career.

AWA pilots? There's no "probably" about it. Like I said, the average AWA pilot will make over a million more over their career because of this ruling.

Think about it; it would be akin to AirTran buying DAL right at the worst of their bankruptcy operations, putting all the AAI guys ahead of every DAL furloughee with relative seniority (making our 2 1/2 year CA's senior to 15 year DAL pilots), a 1-year fence, and saying "maybe the AAI guys will make out better in the long run".

AWA was a LCC. They made a gamble with UAir and it paid off. Now the AWA pilots who WOULD have spent a career flying 737's back and forth across the country have the potential to bid into a Widebody F/O slot within a few years... a Widebody CA slot within the next 15 and spend the last 10 years of their career flying internationally on a widebody.

I think we can rest assured the AWA pilots are pretty happy with the outcome... with very good reason.

Is it true that over 50 flights cancelled at CLT yesterday for crews calling in sick?

I wouldn't doubt it, and I don't blame them. Not much incentive to be a productive crewmember when you just found out you got hosed in arbitration.

 

[ualdriver]

i have friends at both and hear two sides of this story. about east 'probably' going out and west coming in 'days' before closure. then i hear east guys say that wasn't true, they had just gotten monies from other sources to keep them afloat. i agree that furloughs 18 yrs deep ain't good but does anyone have a source that a 3rd party could look at to show that east was about to go out? has anyone heard, or have proof, that east was paid by west at one point right at the buyout. as in if west didn't foot the bill east wasn't going to get a paycheck.

these are genuine questions so please be gentle.

On page 25 of the ruling, the arbitrator basically states that he feels that US Air was the financially weaker of the two airlines after hearing arguments from both sides. Obviously each side saying that the other was in the worse financial position.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

i have friends at both and hear two sides of this story. about east 'probably' going out and west coming in 'days' before closure. then i hear east guys say that wasn't true, they had just gotten monies from other sources to keep them afloat. i agree that furloughs 18 yrs deep ain't good but does anyone have a source that a 3rd party could look at to show that east was about to go out? has anyone heard, or have proof, that east was paid by west at one point right at the buyout. as in if west didn't foot the bill east wasn't going to get a paycheck.

these are genuine questions so please be gentle.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. And, again, just trying to correct the 'misinformation' but don't want to confuse anyone with the 'facts.'

This merger 'closed' in Sept. '05, announced in May '05; however, the planning for this merger began some 4-5mths before the announcement. Do you realize how much is involved in lining up $1.6B+ in outside investment capital??

All of the talk of 'days away from liquidation' for US Air, and possible future financial difficulties at AWA; were just to make the approval of the merger a 'slam dunk' Looking at AWA from the outside, as many financial people who follow the industry had stated; that AWA would not be in that great of positon right now (a very small fish in a big pond), how this merger not taken place. Even though the collective belief among the AWA people is that, "they wish this merger had never taken place," they are better off 'financially' now and will in the future. Whiskey D#&k (or is driver), likes to state how 'profitable' the new US Airways (LCC) was last year; but always fails to mention that 2/3ths of the revenue of the company was generated by the 'old US Air' (east) system, and in fact the revenue from there had a 25% higher 'yield' adding even better to the bottom line. Again, don't want to confuse anyone with the 'facts' but that is straight from LCC filings with the SEC.

And, again, the idea for this merger came from the then CFO of the old US Air, who took the idea to CEO Lakefield and then they approached Parker and the outside investors.

And, now I will not comment on this any longer, as most on here, especially the AWA guys just want to make $hit up and rant. Just trying to correct the 'misinformation'

Continue with your normally scheduled mindless 'rant.'

DA

 

[PinnacleDude]

Think about it; it would be akin to AirTran buying DAL right at the worst of their bankruptcy operations, putting all the AAI guys ahead of every DAL furloughee with relative seniority (making our 2 1/2 year CA's senior to 15 year DAL pilots), a 1-year fence, and saying "maybe the AAI guys will make out better in the long run".

Not too many Delta furloughees lately. Plus nobody thought Delta would really go out of business. US Air was always another story. Remember Wolfe during the interview basically saying their was no hope.

AWA was a LCC. They made a gamble with UAir and it paid off. Now the AWA pilots who WOULD have spent a career flying 737's back and forth across the country have the potential to bid into a Widebody F/O slot within a few years... a Widebody CA slot within the next 15 and spend the last 10 years of their career flying internationally on a widebody.

I think we can rest assured the AWA pilots are pretty happy with the outcome... with very good reason.

I wouldn't doubt it, and I don't blame them. Not much incentive to be a productive crewmember when you just found out you got hosed in arbitration.

Professionals do the right thing. It is not much fun to come out on the wrong side of the stick, but the measure of a winner is what you do when you are down. Call in sick? Also, considering AWA was primarily an Airbus Airline, I think you should check your facts. Plus, the US Air MEC guys would have given away even more scope (195's) had the AWA guys not had the good sense to say no.

Guys - Lear's dad is a retired US Air guy. He is emotionally tied to the issue which leads to his poor reasoning. Take his comments with a grain of salt.

I don't work for either company. While I don't think this integration plan is perfect, it is certainly better than the rediculous NWA/Republic solution. I think SteveG is correct. I also agree that both groups will get taken to the cleaners and hurt the rest of us if they don't put differences aside and confront their management.

 

[Lear70]

Not too many Delta furloughees lately.

Not anymore... there were quite a few back when DAL filed. Nice way to split hairs and not address the situation.

Plus nobody thought Delta would really go out of business. US Air was always another story. Remember Wolfe during the interview basically saying their was no hope.

Lots of us don't believe UAir was going anywhere either.

Again, if you believe anything management says without proof, you need your head examined.

Also, considering AWA was primarily an Airbus Airline, I think you should check your facts.

Do they have 737's? Yup. Excuse me for not giving the exact breakdown of NARROW BODY Airbus to NARROW BODY 737's while still making my point (which you failed to address).

Again, great way to split hairs and not really address the issues. Your debating skills (or lack thereof) are absolutely astounding.

Guys - Lear's dad is a retired US Air guy. He is emotionally tied to the issue which leads to his poor reasoning. Take his comments with a grain of salt.

Ummm... I think I already said that, genius. Back in my first post. Care to go look?

Poor reasoning? Your lack of solid facts in your "debate" don't support such a claim.

Gentlemen, and ladies, I'm sorry you have to deal with someone slinging mud with little facts or solid debate to add. You have to understand, PCL Dude is coming from a regional where I regularly rocked the boat against unsafe management practices... and succeeded, and is having a slight inferiority problem after I left for greener pastures.

We now return you to better debate.

 

[ultrarunner]

USAir lost respect a LOOOOONG time ago!

 

[xrated]

I think SteveG is correct. .

I've read some ridiculous posts on this site before, but this is far and away the most absurd thing I've ever read. SteveG is never correct....NEVER!!!!!

"George W Bush got us out of Vietnam and he can get us out of Iraq"

Quote from SteveG!