USAirways East losing respect.

[talespin]

Hey TD , AWAC invested in AAA before you guys did and we have a seat on the BOD there still after all the stock that was sold. Since that money came from the pilots shouldn't that mean we get in before AWA pilots? I mean, it's only fair right? Our money came before your money to save the day.

All this was being discussed on the other thread. Why the new thread? Didn't think your post would get much attention?

And TD , I am living through it. I was forced out of my base to this crappy one in PHL. I used to drive to work and now I commute off line two legs.

I just want my money back!

 

[Wino]

ALPA merger policy says that one group won't get a windfall at the expense of another group.

By leaving out the fences that is EXACTLY what happened. The America West seniority list was a stagnant list with almost no retirement. The USAIR list was going to turn over very quickly. Although furloughed the more junior USair people had that going for them. That was STOLEN by the arbitrator and the west pilots. The USair pilots even furloughed had a career expectation of a rapidly approaching upgrade, not something that junior America west pilots had. Now they do because they got to take it from the USair pilots.

USAir was not days from shutting down. Big airlines don't shut down anymore because they don't own the fleets. The leasing companies will never allow it. Its not just the 250 aircraft that are at the airline in question that would be devalued by such an action but the other 1000s of aircraft that they have placed with other airlines.

West got a BIG windfall, and East got a screw job. A tremendous one. No fences = unfair merger.

Cheers
Wino

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. And, again, just trying to correct the 'misinformation' but don't want to confuse anyone with the 'facts.'

This merger 'closed' in Sept. '05, announced in May '05; however, the planning for this merger began some 4-5mths before the announcement. Do you realize how much is involved in lining up $1.6B+ in outside investment capital??

All of the talk of 'days away from liquidation' for US Air, and possible future financial difficulties at AWA; were just to make the approval of the merger a 'slam dunk' Looking at AWA from the outside, as many financial people who follow the industry had stated; that AWA would not be in that great of positon right now (a very small fish in a big pond), how this merger not taken place. Even though the collective belief among the AWA people is that, "they wish this merger had never taken place," they are better off 'financially' now and will in the future. Whiskey D#&k (or is driver), likes to state how 'profitable' the new US Airways (LCC) was last year; but always fails to mention that 2/3ths of the revenue of the company was generated by the 'old US Air' (east) system, and in fact the revenue from there had a 25% higher 'yield' adding even better to the bottom line. Again, don't want to confuse anyone with the 'facts' but that is straight from LCC filings with the SEC.

And, again, the idea for this merger came from the then CFO of the old US Air, who took the idea to CEO Lakefield and then they approached Parker and the outside investors.

And, now I will not comment on this any longer, as most on here, especially the AWA guys just want to make $hit up and rant. Just trying to correct the 'misinformation'

Continue with your normally scheduled mindless 'rant.'

DA

You're correct you don't have a dog in this fight you don't have a clue of what the real deal was. We presented their financial picture in the case months prior to the merger. Now for your 2/3 comment, if they were so profitable why were they failing???????? What you seem to have missed is we made a profit in the two qt's BEFORE the merger announcement. It is our demise that was misnformation!!!

Don't remember calling you names so don't do it to me!!!!

WD.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I have no dog in this fight, which does two things---

Invalidates my input according to some

Makes my input infinitely more objective than either side



The arbitrator has some rules to follow in this type of situation. He has to look at expectations and be "fair". As far as expections about the future you really get into uncharted territory looking out more than 2 or 3 years. Airlines can come in go in that amount of time. As was stated before it is a seniority integration and not a DOH integration. DOH is used to determine seniority at an airline so it is easy to fall back on that in most cases. This case was unique and he couldn't do it.

Does anyone really believe the arbitrator was looking to favor any side above the other? To take care of his friends at either airline? I believe he wanted to be fair. But I also believe he wanted to look like a team player so he could get other arbitration work. In that respect he played some politics. I don't know how that desire could have "screwed" either pilot group.


In an event, its over. Fair or unfair there are some positives to go with the negatives of the decision. (Don't confuse these with any criteria I believe the arbitrator used to make his decision)


Positives--

The East guys flying were on a rollercoaster. I'm glad there is a positive ending to it. The airline could have gone under. Those that chose to stick it out were rewarded, but the reward was not as good as desired. I know the East was on the upswing. Everyone who knows anything knows it. That is why you were ripe for a merger. May the wind continue to be at your back.

The folks furloughed twice (three times?) and for a very long time at East got a reward too. It amazes me why you stuck it out but you did hoping for the best. You'll be going back to work soon.

The West guys deserved something for sticking it out at AWA. Many have left for stronger airlines over the years but you remained loyal. I'm glad you got a bennie. A bennie that many think was too generous, but you too have taken it in the shorts in years past (collectively as a pilot group). Hope you guys are nice to the East guys as this moves on.


The combined company is going to make tons of money. The General and many DAL folks will be amazed. Your future is so bright, you have to wear shades.

If there is another merger to be had...I could see USAir gobbling up UAL. Especially if UAL continues to show weakness (loses more money) as USAir builds up more and more cash.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

How does this ruling affect seniority integration in future mergers?

Are we being told it's smarter to leave a troubled airline for a growing airline?

 

[Lear70]

The arbitrator has some rules to follow in this type of situation. He has to look at expectations and be "fair".

Again, I don't think anyone can look at this and HONESTLY say it's "fair".

DOH is used to determine seniority at an airline so it is easy to fall back on that in most cases. This case was unique and he couldn't do it.

Agreed... He just screwed up the fences to protect both sides equally.

Does anyone really believe the arbitrator was looking to favor any side above the other? To take care of his friends at either airline?

No. I just think he's terminally stupid... or just the most short-sighted arbitrator of all time.

I believe he wanted to be fair. But I also believe he wanted to look like a team player so he could get other arbitration work. In that respect he played some politics. I don't know how that desire could have "screwed" either pilot group.

It's easy to see. Just look at the ruling. Then look at both side's individual seniority list. Then look forward 10 years and see where everyone will fall.

The arbitrator may not have "intended" to screw one side or the other, but the fact remains that he did.

As an aside, UAir management has to be LOVING this ruling. With the lower longevity guys ruling the widebodies in 5 years, it's going to cut their payroll costs DRAMATICALLY.

In an event, its over. Fair or unfair there are some positives to go with the negatives of the decision. (Don't confuse these with any criteria I believe the arbitrator used to make his decision)

It's not over. The UAir guys are going to drag this out for YEARS in every way they can, until Prater tells them to knock it off... and even then they might go to the trouble of running a decert vote IF it will give them another year or so without the integration.

Positives--

The folks furloughed twice (three times?) and for a very long time at East got a reward too. It amazes me why you stuck it out but you did hoping for the best. You'll be going back to work soon.

Unlikely.

Many of those never resigned their seniority when they went to work at other companies.

They're now Captains at Netjets, JetBlue, AirTran, Southwest, FedEx, etc, etc.

I doubt you'll get more than 2 out of every 10 furloughees to accept recalls under the arbitrator's ruling that practically guarantees they won't see upgrade into a NARROWBODY for over a decade... into a widebody,,,, maybe never in their career.

The West guys deserved something for sticking it out at AWA. Many have left for stronger airlines over the years but you remained loyal. I'm glad you got a bennie. A bennie that many think was too generous, but you too have taken it in the shorts in years past (collectively as a pilot group).

I think everyone realizes the AWA pilots will make out like bandits compared to their career expectations pre-merger.

No one's saying that it's the AWA pilot's fault or that they somehow intended to screw the East guys,,, not at all. That's just the way the ruling turned out.

Hope you guys are nice to the East guys as this moves on.

If history repeats itself, it's going to be a long next decade in the East.

When UAir purchased Piedmont and stapled them to the bottom of the list, it was pure HELL going through CLT for the next 10+ years. They were P*SSED and weren't afraid to show it.

This will be similar. The UAir guys feel like they got screwed. Say what you will about why things happened and "it's over now", but you simply can't change the way people perceive things and how they feel about it.

The combined company is going to make tons of money. The General and many DAL folks will be amazed. Your future is so bright, you have to wear shades.

Good song.

Yeah, the airline is going to make a ton of money. The AWA pilot's future IS extremely bright.

The only people you'll get to apply, however, are regional pilots. There are lots of LCC pilots from AAI, JBlu, F9, etc who are applying at DAL, CAL, and preparing for NWA and UAL as they begin hiring because there's a way for them to make back the initial several year's worth of pay cuts.

You won't get those guys applying to UAir; they know they won't upgrade for decades and, if already CA's at those other companies, won't ever make back what they lose by coming over, especially with the long track to widebody CA (if ever).

If there is another merger to be had...I could see USAir gobbling up UAL. Especially if UAL continues to show weakness (loses more money) as USAir builds up more and more cash.

I doubt it. UAir's gobbling days are over,,, until the next downturn, possibly.

Besides, UAL's balance sheet is still WAY too high on the debt side to even consider it.

If anything happens to UAL, it'll probably be purchased and broken up into individual pieces before someone acquires the airline as a whole. UAir may certainly want a piece of THAT pie,,, especially the international routes and widebody aircraft. But then again, so will everyone else.

I still think we're several years away from that road, and UAL has time to turn things around to prevent it.

 

[Lear70]

How does this ruling affect seniority integration in future mergers?

Are we being told it's smarter to leave a troubled airline for a growing airline?

Excellent point...

And the answer is... "maybe"? Especially if you're relatively low seniority at the troubled airline.

 

[PositiveRate]

Lear,

You're idea of fair is my career being depressed as recognition/payback for another group of pilots who've drawn a bad hand for a long time (unfortunate to be sure). I think they call that the "cooler" in poker.

When you spout off about 7-8 yr base fences, you conveniently ignore what's happened in the last two years in the West and what would continue if that were the case. West would stagnate and that 2005 hire would stay on the bottom out here for years. If the merger hadn't happened, that person would have a 20-30% buffer below them already and would have been a captain by the end of the fence expirations.

So basically, you want it your way and want it to benifit your people. I can't hold that against you, especially now that we live in a "me first, me always" culture...BUT, to claim that would be fair is laughable. This is what is most offending to the West, because from the beginning we have never stood on a hardline position. Relative integration and active-active slotting has been our mantra from day one.

Look, the America West reality is that our group has been against this from the beginning. This was handed to us as well....no one asked what we wanted. This is proving to be a labor disastor of historic proportions and we all saw it coming (east and west)...it seems the only ones who left it out of their assumptions were Doug and team.

I've said it before...I DO empathize greatly with the path the junior East have had to walk. We all have to bite the $hit sandwich at some point, but no one should be forced to eat it for dinner. The fact that actives got slotted with actives IS fair. The history behind how and where people were on their lists pre-merger...well that's where I see things being unfair. Regardless, the East reality is not the fault of the West and no apology is owed or will be given.

 

[BeCareful!]

I'd just like to know how Nicolau obviously took career expectations into account when looking at the senior US Air pilots, but seemed to buy into the idea that anyone at the bottom of the US Air list had no expectations worth considering. The two positions can't co-exist logically.

It's a shame because it almost insures the complete ineffectiveness of ALPA on this property for the rest of time.

 

[PositiveRate]

I think the senior East positions had less to do with "career expectations" than they did a representation of the "premium" flying that the East brought to the table. Those 5xx positions are simply the # of CA & FO positions required to staff the A330's and B767's.

In short, I don't think there were two sets of expectations he recognized...if anything it was one set that was in danger pre-merger, but also had a premium portion un-expected by the West.

If you read the entire award, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. Nicalau did a good enough job of articulating it. From an emotional standpoint, though, I definitely see how it looks like two sets of expectations given different weight, but that's not how it went down.