USAir East West NIC Award Resolution? Very soon!

[Superbird]

Interesting that you bring up "majority" after election day - in that regard i would always choose to be smarter and in the minority rather than dumb but say i am in the majority = but for now I guess we in the East are both smarter and in the majority

Metrojet

You're "smarter" alright, if you insist. Dougweiser appreciates how "smart" you have been on your concessionary contract. Stay "smart".

 

[cactusboy53]

The lawyers for USAir are either the most incompetent boobs or the most despicable, conniving, manipulators...

....Sending crap like the excerpt below to the court that told them... the COMPANY MUST NEGOTIATE WITH USAPA... incompetent boobs or conniving manipulators.. either way it is disgusting!!

---The COMPANY has NOT negotiated with USAPA for any amount of time, much less four years. They refuse to come to the table and pretend that USAPA and the West Pilots are the rightful place to negotiate... HOGWASH is for PIGS.)

Yea, you got it brother. USAPA's legal team has them on the run! USAPA's legal wins demonstrate that they are the champions! There is no way the LCC could possibly have better legal advice (or Leonidas).

It's all ALPA's fault. It's all Nicolau's fault. It's all the Westies fault. It's all the company's fault. It's all the NMB's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Clues: It's your fault & the fault of your previous company(s).

 

[cactusboy53]

Hi Becket!!!! Where was the "over a billion dollars in lost income" going to come from? I only have a math degree and your ex-con CEO has it. Are you really saying chug-a-lug dui parker was going to give it me????? Look at the public records and after tell me how he hides things from the public.

I don't know about a billion. I do know that the the JNC had 27 closed sections of a 30-some section contract. The company testified that they were looking at giving an additional 7-8% on top of the Kirby Proposal (essentially the AWA contract).

Here's what has been lost since 2007ish:

• An increase of 10-11% in hourly wage for Westies. That's about a $33 an hour increase for an East NB captain. A NB captain would have been making $158 or so an hour (as early as 2007).
• 31 days of vacation a year (maximum)
• Full DH, Mechanical & Cancellation.
• With the contract improvements (vacation time, etc.), we would have had to HIRE - Not furlough.
• With one contract, one group: the opportunity to GROW the airline properly vs. placing ALL the growth in CLT & PHL because you be cheap, Jack.
• You would be contributing less for medical than you are right now.

The sad thing is that Dug has played USAPA like a Charlie Daniels fiddle (and continues to do so). Through omission, commission or just outright deceit he has managed to take all of this away. LOA93 & delay is all that USAPA has bought, and it has cost us all dearly.

• USAPA has spent OVER 10 MILLION dollars in legal expenses (Addington, RICO I & RICO II, Address-Gate, Work Action, Injunction, etc.)
• Leonidas is up around 3 Mil.
• WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS IN A MERGER FUND. How do you think that is going to work out for us?????

The PHX pilot group didn't start this, but we will most assuredly finish it. It is just a matter of money, time and patience. We have all three.

SYIC-A (see you in court-again).

 

[cactusboy53]

We can keep arguing about the viability of the merged companies and we can now see that past projections were incorrect. USAir has been hiring since last year and plans over 300 new pilots next year even though the former AWA pilots already fly 24 % of the USAir routes. AWA has shrunk, has pilots laid off, won't be hiring to replace retirees at least through all of next year, and doesn't even have enough profitable routes to even employ all the pilots they currently have, as Parker has repeatedly told everyone.

All that doesn't matter.

Folks can keep bitching that they don't agree with the majority or they can propose an alternative that is acceptable to the majority.

Democracy is what it is.

So DEMOCRACY is another way of saying it's OK to renege? How about arguing keeping your word, doing what you promised, don't cheat, don't lie, etc.?? Those all seem to be pretty easy tenets to live by.

The Nicolau Seniority list IS the COMPROMISE, it IS the MIDDLE GROUND. We stand FIRMLY on legal, moral and ethical HIGH GROUND.

We did not start this, but we will finish it.

SYIC-A

 

[charlie2]

I don't know about a billion. I do know that the the JNC had 27 closed sections of a 30-some section contract. The company testified that they were looking at giving an additional 7-8% on top of the Kirby Proposal (essentially the AWA contract).

Here's what has been lost since 2007ish:

• An increase of 10-11% in hourly wage for Westies. That's about a $33 an hour increase for an East NB captain. A NB captain would have been making $158 or so an hour (as early as 2007).
• 31 days of vacation a year (maximum)
• Full DH, Mechanical & Cancellation.
• With the contract improvements (vacation time, etc.), we would have had to HIRE - Not furlough.
• With one contract, one group: the opportunity to GROW the airline properly vs. placing ALL the growth in CLT & PHL because you be cheap, Jack.
• You would be contributing less for medical than you are right now.

The sad thing is that Dug has played USAPA like a Charlie Daniels fiddle (and continues to do so). Through omission, commission or just outright deceit he has managed to take all of this away. LOA93 & delay is all that USAPA has bought, and it has cost us all dearly.

• USAPA has spent OVER 10 MILLION dollars in legal expenses (Addington, RICO I & RICO II, Address-Gate, Work Action, Injunction, etc.)
• Leonidas is up around 3 Mil.
• WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS IN A MERGER FUND. How do you think that is going to work out for us?????

The PHX pilot group didn't start this, but we will most assuredly finish it. It is just a matter of money, time and patience. We have all three.

SYIC-A (see you in court-again).

Hey Dave! I was specific in my question. How was Dug gonna pay for Kirby? We didn't make enough money to pay for that lousy offer! If we voted in Kirby or a slight improvemnet the company would have had to go to court again and get another 1013c.

 

[cactusboy53]

Hey Dave! I was specific in my question. How was Dug gonna pay for Kirby? We didn't make enough money to pay for that lousy offer! If we voted in Kirby or a slight improvement the company would have had to go to court again and get another 1013c.

The same way he pays for everything else: By finding money, finance & marketing. I am a simple man. I don't care where he gets the money, I simply want to be paid. The Kirby Proposal is STILL on the table (according to a recent Crew News), and testimony at the trial said they were willing to go 7-8% higher. My job is to get the people from point A to point B. I'll let Dug figure out where he's gonna find the money.

Wages and 401K ALONE, I'm short $80,000 (since 2007). Never to be recovered. Mike Gillies is the "biggest loser" at over $172,000.00 (estimates based on the above w/ the AWA contract rules). Also never to be recovered.

Every day that goes by is money lost, additional time off lost, contract improvements lost. period.

 

[charlie2]

The same way he pays for everything else: By finding money, finance & marketing. I am a simple man. I don't care where he gets the money, I simply want to be paid. The Kirby Proposal is STILL on the table (according to a recent Crew News), and testimony at the trial said they were willing to go 7-8% higher. My job is to get the people from point A to point B. I'll let Dug figure out where he's gonna find the money.

Wages and 401K ALONE, I'm short $80,000 (since 2007). Never to be recovered. Mike Gillies is the "biggest loser" at over $172,000.00 (estimates based on the above w/ the AWA contract rules). Also never to be recovered.

Every day that goes by is money lost, additional time off lost, contract improvements lost. period.

There was no money to pay for Kirby. This year may be an exception though. Kirby is a really good example of a bad example. Please don't vote to let Dug have no min fleet and no min utilization rates...please Dave please?

 

[cactusboy53]

There was no money to pay for Kirby. This year may be an exception though. Kirby is a really good example of a bad example. Please don't vote to let Dug have no min fleet and no min utilization rates...please Dave please?

It's not my job to find money, but can get money to shoot out of many orifices. What's fleet min have to do with it? West is at fleet min, and east is getting any and all new / replacement aircraft.

I want a new contract and I want to be paid like our peers. That's also my job. We can take the KP, and adjust fleet mins & utilization. Why on earth would we want to keep our current contracts while the industry is making WAY MORE?

CB

 

[charlie2]

It's not my job to find money, but can get money to shoot out of many orifices. What's fleet min have to do with it? West is at fleet min, and east is getting any and all new / replacement aircraft.

I want a new contract and I want to be paid like our peers. That's also my job. We can take the KP, and adjust fleet mins & utilization. Why on earth would we want to keep our current contracts while the industry is making WAY MORE?

CB

Dave you should know that Dug is saying he WILL shrink the airline if we merge. He violated us a few years ago and we won in arbitration and I can forward that info if you can't get on our web site. Use some logic for a second...if management would violate a contract section about keeping a min utilization rate (JOBS!!!) why wouldn't they rape us if it wasn't in the contract to begin with?

 

[cactusboy53]

Dave you should know that Dug is saying he WILL shrink the airline if we merge. He violated us a few years ago and we won in arbitration and I can forward that info if you can't get on our web site. Use some logic for a second...if management would violate a contract section about keeping a min utilization rate (JOBS!!!) why wouldn't they rape us if it wasn't in the contract to begin with?

Dug said no such thing. In fact he stated the opposite on many occasions. The presentation that was delivered shows very little overlap, and supports the business model he has proposed. Why on earth would ANY business person merge two airlines (like LCC & AA) to make the worlds largest airline, just to shrink it to 3rd or 4th? Considering our loads, that would be the true definition of STUPID.

With the retirements, new rest rules, possible changes in experience level for new FO's, etc., we are looking at JOBS! LCC is hiring 300-350 a year NOW - with or without a merger. Can you imagine how we might be able to GROW if Dug didn't have to worry about running two airlines? Heck, we might even be able to GROW and not need to merge.

Industry "experts" say pretty much the same thing, including the possibility of growing PHX (because there is little space to grow out of LAX). Also growth to South America and perhaps the Pacific Rim.

Look at the past 10 years. LCC management can't utter a sentence without using the terms "merger" or "consolidation". Logic tells me that he is hell bent on doing this if at all possible - with or without our assistance.

Without our assistance, we would become a single carrier quickly and we would have new CBA. That CBA would dictate what we would get in a new contract.

With our assistance we get a voice, equal and timely pay, pay parity, etc. IMHO the benefits outweigh the detriments.

Pretending that our current protections would remain just because we want them to is foolish and short sighted. I'll admit there is a leap of faith to be made, but logically it looks like the best path.

 

[FR8mastr]

Kirby, if we were ever stupid enough to ask for it, was to be paid for with all the reductions in QOL. and the loss in other benefits.
They were hoping for the shortsighted to jump at a pay rate and not look into anything else. The majority of West pilots would vote for anything that gave them the NIC, so it almost worked.
I cant believe that even with hind site some are still advocating that piece of garbage. Once you give up work rules and benefits that took decades to get, you will never get them back.
I'll give you $5 cash for that $20 credit card... Sounds like a great deal to me.

 

[cactusboy53]

Kirby, if we were ever stupid enough to ask for it, was to be paid for with all the reductions in QOL. and the loss in other benefits.
They were hoping for the shortsighted to jump at a pay rate and not look into anything else. The majority of West pilots would vote for anything that gave them the NIC, so it almost worked.
I cant believe that even with hind site some are still advocating that piece of garbage. Once you give up work rules and benefits that took decades to get, you will never get them back.
I'll give you $5 cash for that $20 credit card... Sounds like a great deal to me.

And there you have it Ladies & Gentlemen: EMOTION vs. LOGIC. The KP was / is essentially the AWA contract with an increase of 3-11% (above the AWA wage).


Here are your "losses" in quality of life:

• 31 DAYS OF VACATION (MAXIMUM)
• FULL PAY MECHANICAL
• FULL PAY DEADHEAD
• FULL PAY CANCELLATION
• DUTY & RIG IMPROVEMENTS (5:15 A DAY FOR EACH 24 HOUR PERIOD SITTING)
• PAY INCREASE
• 401K INCREASE
• CONTINUED PROFIT SHARING (If you brain surgeons would STOP burning two engines and the APU as much as you do, it would be an amazing improvement). Even with the limited participation this year will be the BEST ever!
• YOU WOULD BE PAYING LESS FOR MEDICAL COST INCREASES THAN YOU ARE RIGHT NOW (mine went up only a couple of bucks).

I'll bet a beer that you haven't actually even read the KP details, or for that matter know where to find it. Further, IF you took the time to read it...you STILL wouldn't get it.

Hang in there buddy! You've got us right where we want you! Voting in the Nic has NOTHING to do with it. The Nicolau seniority list is the ONLY LEGAL LIST that all parties agreed to. Changing your name & persecuting the west pilots have only bought you delay. Money that you will never see, because it's all in LCC's pocket. Dug says THANKS!

 

[weasel_lips]

Waste of time.... Like posting here is going to win something, anything. Change someone's mind.... Waste of time..... Move on.....

 

[Flybywire44]

Yea, you got it brother. USAPA's legal team has them on the run! USAPA's legal wins demonstrate that they are the champions! There is no way the LCC could possibly have better legal advice (or Leonidas).

It's all ALPA's fault. It's all Nicolau's fault. It's all the Westies fault. It's all the company's fault. It's all the NMB's fault. It's always someone else's fault.

Clues: It's your fault & the fault of your previous company(s).

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

East values maintaining seniority and attrition over QOL.

 

[vetrider]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

QUOTE]

And the woman with two black eyes just didn't know when to shut up. Sure.

 

[Ocity]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

East values maintaining seniority and attrition over QOL.

Right......

The West played by the rules and trusted the other two parties would do the same. THAT'S what the West is guilty of. Won't EVER happen again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Both East and West are equally responsible for this status quo.

No, ALPA is largely responsible for this status quo by not completing their responsibility and merging the 2 MECs and signing a joint contract in lieu of membership ratification. They thought they could keep the dues from US if they leaned on the west to negotiate against themselves after the award came out.

You can see how that went.

 

[Flybywire44]

Binding or not, the Nic award was unfair and, as Just Silver recently made clear, Nic is not binding.

Both pilot groups were disingenuous and had an all or nothing mentality—this is where both parties went wrong.

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created. WALPA should have immediately drafted that MOU when Nic was awarded to avoid today's status quo.

Blow back is especially brutal in this case to all parties.

 

[becket]

Binding or not, the Nic award was unfair and, as Just Silver recently made clear, Nic is not binding.

Both pilot groups were disingenuous and had an all or nothing mentality—this is where both parties went wrong.

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created. WALPA should have immediately drafted that MOU when Nic was awarded to avoid today's status quo.

Blow back is especially brutal in this case to all parties.

You have absolutely NO IDEA what you're talking about. Silver was very careful to say that the Nic wasn't binding ONLY if USAPA could identify a legitimate union purpose to do so. A purpose that would survive a trial. Guess what? They don't have one. Never did....and a jury already shoved their claimed "legitimate" purpose straight up their asses. Who are you to arbitrarily decide the "fairness" of the Nic award? You're a NOBODY. We're you there for the months of testimony? No. Are you an experienced Lawyer? No. Are you an arbitrator? No. Nothing.

Every Federal Judge has pinned the Nic on USAPA. USAPA plays stupid. They don't care if they go BK in court because USAPA knows damn well their days are numbered no matter what. They just want to get something ratified because they are under the very mistaken idea that will solidify DOH.

I could go on and on correcting your completely clueless ass but ill just leave you with the very good advice to simply STFU about things you have no understanding of.

 

[Bringupthebird]

West ALPA started the process of drafting an MOU to the Nic award when they saw that USAPA was being created.

They did no such thing. They did quite the opposite and refused to negotiate against themselves and buckle under to the demands of the east.

It was never about fairness, it was always about the east having sufficient votes to get their way, even if they didn't know what to do with it once they got it.

 

[Flybywire44]

I flew with the East Alpa rep who negotiated the NIC MOU with West ALPA. The MOU never went anywhere because West/East could not negotiate the document before USAPA threw out both Alpa groups.

Becket, Judge Silver did not say that Nic was binding. Rather she gave East a lot of liberty to do what ever they want and risk a DFR later. Why was Silver so "Gray?"

AOL is not going to win this pissing contest with the East group. A fifth of the group will retire before the seniority list is settled. A third to half of the the East group will retire before any DFR would be settled—this is reality; the East mentality you're dealing with does not care and will retire soon.

You MAY eventually settle a DFR, but the burden will be on AOL to prove they were damaged. Unlike TWA pilots, AOL will have to prove that West pilots were damaged while enjoying tremendous movement, contract & QOL improvements that USAPA may negotiate in part with APA/LCC.

It took two parties to create this situation. The loudest political elements in both East and West pilot unions were also the most disingenuous and responsible.

West pilots experienced a huge win fall from Nicolau—It would seem too good to be true now.

 

[Turtle21]

I flew with the East Alpa rep who negotiated the NIC MOU with West ALPA. The MOU never went anywhere because West/East could not negotiate the document before USAPA threw out both Alpa groups.

Becket, Judge Silver did not say that Nic was binding. Rather she gave East a lot of liberty to do what ever they want and risk a DFR later. Why was Silver so "Gray?"

AOL is not going to win this pissing contest with the East group. A fifth of the group will retire before the seniority list is settled. A third to half of the the East group will retire before any DFR would be settled—this is reality; the East mentality you're dealing with does not care and will retire soon.

You MAY eventually settle a DFR, but the burden will be on AOL to prove they were damaged. Unlike TWA pilots, AOL will have to prove that West pilots were damaged while enjoying tremendous movement, contract & QOL improvements that USAPA may negotiate in part with APA/LCC.

It took two parties to create this situation. The loudest political elements in both East and West pilot unions were also the most disingenuous and responsible.

West pilots experienced a huge win fall from Nicolau—It would seem too good to be true now.

The West is in complete denial. No legitimate court has ever required USAPA to use the ALPA Nic list.. only Judge Wake, the West golfing buddy, ever attempted to manipulate court proceedings to the point that the Nic became an injunction.. but he got his hiney spanked.

The courts have repeatedly asserted USAPA and the company can use whatever bargaining positions they want to... with the caveat that a union has a wide range of reasonableness to make their decisions.

No way AOL will ever win any damages... the West opposed pay parity for the East, the West brags they are paid 15% more than East pilots in pay and benefits, and the West has been benefitting from a shift of 24% of East flying to West crews which resulted in several years of delays to East hiring.

For the life of me I can't figure out why they complain so much!

 

[TWA Dude]

the West opposed pay parity for the East,...

As usual, most of your post is just chest-thumping opinion without basis in fact. But your above statement is a lie by omission. The West supported pay parity for the East up until the point the East withdrew from joint contract talks and started the war against our seniority. Failing to mention that little tidbit makes you a liar.

the West brags they are paid 15% more than East pilots in pay and benefits,

It's only because of the East's idiocy that you didn't get a raise back in 2007 when Doug was actually motivated to sign a contract.

and the West has been benefitting from a shift of 24% of East flying to West crews which resulted in several years of delays to East hiring.

Another lie. By the Transition Agreement both sides have minimum block-hour requirements. I don't know about the East, but the West has been at that minimum for several years. Where the company makes us fly is irrelevant. And considering the complete stagnation on the West you've got a lot of nerve bragging about ANY hiring on the East.

 

[Turtle21]

Neither you or I decided that all the hiring is on the East, and will continue to be at least through next year. The economic reality dictates it. DUI would hire guys on the West if he needed pilots out there. DUI would replace the retiring pilots on the West if he didn't already have an overage of pilots out West. DUI would fly his West min block hours out West if there was enough business out there.. It costs money to fly empty planes from PHX out to locations were he can get profitable load factors. There will never be any harmed discovered for the West pilots because none has ever occurred.

 

[B-atch]

Every Federal Judge has pinned the Nic on USAPA. USAPA plays stupid. They don't care if they go BK in court because USAPA knows damn well their days are numbered no matter what. They just want to get something ratified because they are under the very mistaken idea that will solidify DOH.

I could go on and on correcting your completely clueless ass but ill just leave you with the very good advice to simply STFU about things you have no understanding of.

Enlighten us, oh mighty Beecker...Why did Jdg. Silver NOT mandate/impose the Nic?? If the AOL cult so vehemently claim that the Nic is "binding", why did the good Judge not enforce it??.....Oh and on a side note, you should consider prozac.. Your mood has become increasingly...Agitated..

 

[Bringupthebird]

It costs money to fly empty planes from PHX out to locations were he can get profitable load factors. There will never be any harmed discovered for the West pilots because none has ever occurred.

Lay off the mushrooms!

Empty airplanes, eh? Where do you work?

Damages? USAPA's sole reason for formation was to disadvantage the west and that is documented fact. Damages will be easy and the assessment of your fresh captain's paycheck will be painful.

The only reason Silver did not spank USAPA instead of warn them was that she holds out hope they will come to their senses and not deliberately do something they know will result in an easily won lawsuit against them. However, once they ratify that contract, all hope for the east is gone.

The obvious foot dragging on that contract by USAPA in order to preserve the status quo at the expense of the west is another very easy charge to prove and yield $$$ for the west.

Whoever told you you could evade the responsibility for abiding by Binding Arbitration without any consequence was probably lying to you in order to get your union dues.

Don't be so gullible next time.

 

[becket]

Enlighten us, oh mighty Beecker...Why did Jdg. Silver NOT mandate/impose the Nic?? If the AOL cult so vehemently claim that the Nic is "binding", why did the good Judge not enforce it??.....Oh and on a side note, you should consider prozac.. Your mood has become increasingly...Agitated..

Agitated by clueless idiots that actually believe the USAPA lies. Silver didn't impose the Nic...which she clearly eluded SHE WANTED TO BUT COULDN'T because of the 9ths idiotic ruling that has the parties chasing their tails in an endless loop. The 9th was dumb enough to believe USAPA was ever going to be willing to not blatantly screw the west despite their clear DFR responsibilities. They don't understand that USAPA has no plans to be on any property in a few years. USAPA can go for broke and burn down the house. No union in history has been wired like those scabs so I guess I could cut the 9 th some slack for not understanding what they were looking at.

Do you actually believe if you ratified a DOH contract, it would survive injunction? If you ACTUALLY believe that, exactly which neutral 3rd party has ever indicated such? Silver said, in plain English that abandoning the Nic puts them on "dangerous ground". The 9th spoke of the "unquestionably ripe dfr". Did you forget that part? Where in those statements are you deriving your unfettered freedom to a DOH cram down?

This experiment is going to be the biggest financial failure of your career...aside from not walking away from US Air after your furlough ....like 85% of your 99 hire generation was wise enough to do.

 

[Turtle21]

Lay off the mushrooms!

Empty airplanes, eh? Where do you work?

Damages? USAPA's sole reason for formation was to disadvantage the west and that is documented fact. Damages will be easy and the assessment of your fresh captain's paycheck will be painful.

The only reason Silver did not spank USAPA instead of warn them was that she holds out hope they will come to their senses and not deliberately do something they know will result in an easily won lawsuit against them. However, once they ratify that contract, all hope for the east is gone.

The obvious foot dragging on that contract by USAPA in order to preserve the status quo at the expense of the west is another very easy charge to prove and yield $$$ for the west.

Whoever told you you could evade the responsibility for abiding by Binding Arbitration without any consequence was probably lying to you in order to get your union dues.

Don't be so gullible next time.

The court refuses to make it binding now. There is no basis to find damages in the future. But your obsession and cult faith is entertaining.

 

[dollacrackho]

Airways met with amr creditors today. hopefully they'll make some kind of decision soon and either way we can move forward and forget about this sh!t show.

 

[Turtle21]

Airways met with amr creditors today. hopefully they'll make some kind of decision soon and either way we can move forward and forget about this sh!t show.

The show will go on. A different episode, certainly... but the show in aviation will go on as long as there are pilots that can afford to buy a beer at the bar of grumbling.