US Airways hiring

[weasel_lips]

There will be furloughs, but it will be due to the age 60 change and the excess capacity that occurs with EVERY merger. Doug won't keep 500 extra pilots for the next 4 years with virtually no attrition. So all us junior pilots get to be unemployed so grandpa can keep his standard of living for 5 more years. Thanks guys. Let the class warfare and fights in the cockpit begin.

And what was ALPA's position on this?

 

[weasel_lips]

Nice use of FUD idiot, but if you were to do some research you would find that a joint CBA would require the hiring of more pilots. The west has better work rules and more vacation. But alas, no one can reason with the east. Vote in usapa and good luck in the next merger. I'm sure ALPA will love making sure the east guys get all that they deserve. Karma.......it's a b*#ch.

Require hiring? More like it will allow furloughing. Perhaps you should do some research and not think about just yourself.

Not that it matters to me, I am moving on to another job here shortly.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

From what I see and the folks I talk to, I think that ALPA is gone at Airways. The letter that Prater sent last week I think sealed it. Regardless of what people think about the issues or which side they are on, it is very clear that ALPA is now in the habit of ignoring various pilot groups in favor of their own whims.

Age 65, merger issues, regional issues etc. This is now the third airline that I have seen it happen to. Regardless of how you stand on various subjects I think that it is very clear that ALPA national follows their own agenda, and more often than not it is in direct opposition to what the membership voted on or wants.

I have been told by both NWA and UA guys that they are keenly watching current events and that they fully expect that ALPA has a limited life span on their properties as well. In the words of the NWA guy "ALPA is soon going to be the national union of the regionals only."

It is hard to ignore the fact that the best paid, best QOL and strongest pax hauling airlines out there are not ALPA. In the case of Airways they now have 10 airlines flying in one paint job, with ALPA I think representing 8 of them, none of which have a QOL or job security worth a darn.

There is no way that a union can protect both the mainline and the regional of the same carrier anymore. The RJ's are too big and the routes are the same......one or the other side has to lose.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Require hiring? More like it will allow furloughing. Perhaps you should do some research and not think about just yourself.

Not that it matters to me, I am moving on to another job here shortly.

Any chance you can bring a few of your nasty friends along with you ??



PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

From what I see and the folks I talk to, I think that ALPA is gone at Airways.

Don't forget that both East and West groups will be voting on this. Expect maybe ten AWA guys to vote for USAPA (chairman-wannabees) so that means over 75% (there's an exact number available but not off the top of my head) of Easties will need to vote for them. I needn't remind anybody here that few representational elections garner such high percentages. Not to mention, the usually high percentage of pilots who don't even bother to vote.

What I'm getting at is that USAPA is no shoe-in. While dissatifaction with ALPA may be near-universal (on both sides!) there are a plenty of pragmatic pilots on the East who recognize that USAPA is no panacea and in fact could make things worse. They've already made promises that can't be kept. Many guys who signed the cards were making a protest but in the end won't vote for USAPA.

www.USAPA.org

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Don't forget that both East and West groups will be voting on this. Expect maybe ten AWA guys to vote for USAPA (chairman-wannabees) so that means over 75% (there's an exact number available but not off the top of my head) of Easties will need to vote for them. I needn't remind anybody here that few representational elections garner such high percentages. Not to mention, the usually high percentage of pilots who don't even bother to vote.

What I'm getting at is that USAPA is no shoe-in. While dissatifaction with ALPA may be near-universal (on both sides!) there are a plenty of pragmatic pilots on the East who recognize that USAPA is no panacea and in fact could make things worse. They've already made promises that can't be kept. Many guys who signed the cards were making a protest but in the end won't vote for USAPA.

www.USAPA.org

Thats always possible. What I am seeing out there does not show it though. In the words of one guy, "A few months ago I was on the fence, a wait and see what ALPA does to try to fix the mess, get the guys to the table find something that would work for both groups, After recent events and actions it is clear that ALPA does not care about it's various pilot groups and is only after one thing, money. They will not be getting any more of mine if I can help it."

In the last month I have not found a single pilot at airways (East) that will vote to keep ALPA. Granted I am only one guy and in no way do I have contact with all the pilots.

For me it is the cumulitive effect over the years. Small things up to major things that all points to what ALPA really stands for....our money and nothing else.

Cut off from webboard when we (furloughed guys) dissented with ALPA decisions that affected us. (85 hour limit to 95 hour limit that kept us furloughed longer, BK issues etc etc etc. Ignoring pilot group wishes at my furlough job (Another ALPA carrier) during contract time in favor of the larger pilot group (another merger) that led to a strike being our only option. No wish to speak with us or answer our questions while on furlough and before until all the sudden now I matter again because I get a vote on tossing them out, now they want to s#ck my cork on a daily basis judging from the flood of PR e-mails I get. Where was this concern for me when I was facing furlough, strike, and while I watched ALPA sanction the outsourcing of my job in the form of DC-9 and f-100 sized jets to the regionals?

It has not been lost on me either that the only group in the country that has taken an active stance to bring all flying under a single brand back to a single seniority list is not ALPA. APA at AA is the only ones will enough gonads to try it, why??? because they only represent AA pilots!!!! Wow what a concept! ALPA will never ever fix this industry as long as they try to collect the money from all the players, and they have no intention of rocking that cash boat. Heaven forbid that they take a stand against the outsourcing and whipsawing.....it would cost them money in dues.

A huge amount of our problems are in a large part due to ALPA's actions or inactions, we need to be looking to SWA, AA, and the other "free souls" for our guidence to the future. In my mind from experience at three different ALPA carriers, they have no intention or willingness to do what needs to be done, they are in the business of making money. The ALPA of the 30's and 40's is long dead. Now they are just a different form of airline mgmt.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Just to add, I am not saying that USAPA is the end all be all answer, or that they will not have a tough time of it or if it will even work. But After 15 years as a 121 airline pilot at 4 Airlines and seeing the destruction of a once good career, I am positive that ALPA has long ago lost it's way.

I keep hearing over and over out there in USAirway land..."It cannot get any worse for me or my career, might as well think outside the box and give it a shot, I already have nothing left in retirement, job security or QOL, a new union couldn't f$%k it up worse than the pros at ALPA already have."

Of course there are small variations in the statement, but that was the way I first heard it stated.

Time will tell what the results of the drive will be, for me as just a pilot all I know is that the new crowd cannot hurt me more than the old crowd has. I still have 21....oh wait, 26 years left to be worked to the bone for half what I used to make with 1/4 the QOL.

 

[JetMonkey]

To me all I see from the pro usapa guys is nearsightedness. Forget for a moment all about the single CBA, nic or just plan east/west bickering. IF we're all usapa what do you guys think is going to happen during the next merger? Remember US Airways is the smallest of the 6, which to me means if we're not Alpa, then we're in trouble. Case in point, back when America West had an inhouse union (AWAPA) and had the United merger actually happened. Alpa would've easily been the surviving union and all the AWA pilots probably would've been stapled. Now, I'm no advocate of Alpa by any means, but I've said it before, in this case it's the lesser of two evils. Usapa will have NO CHANCE of surviving the next merger. Whatever your so called "clauses" and by-laws that some fancy lawyer wrote up won't mean squat if we're the smaller carrier, which WE WILL BE. Both sides east and west will come up on the short end of the stick.

 

[charlie2]

I have flown with 20 different Capts over the past few months and everyone of them is very vocal about getting rid of ALPA.

 

[Lampshade]

AWA had a in house union? I think you speakn jive.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

To me all I see from the pro usapa guys is nearsightedness. Forget for a moment all about the single CBA, nic or just plan east/west bickering. IF we're all usapa what do you guys think is going to happen during the next merger? Remember US Airways is the smallest of the 6, which to me means if we're not Alpa, then we're in trouble. Case in point, back when America West had an inhouse union (AWAPA) and had the United merger actually happened. Alpa would've easily been the surviving union and all the AWA pilots probably would've been stapled. Now, I'm no advocate of Alpa by any means, but I've said it before, in this case it's the lesser of two evils. Usapa will have NO CHANCE of surviving the next merger. Whatever your so called "clauses" and by-laws that some fancy lawyer wrote up won't mean squat if we're the smaller carrier, which WE WILL BE. Both sides east and west will come up on the short end of the stick.

For me that does not even factor into my decision. call it nearsightedness if you like, but I am looking a bit father out than the next merger. Under current policy and trend the mainlines will not exist at all before long. I have 26 years to finish out now, and unless the rj bleeding and outsourcing is stopped all I have to look forward to is seeing my job moved from ALPA carrier to ALPA carrier done by whoever decides to whore themselves out more. Airways is now 10 count them 10 seperate pilot groups flying under one paint job. Most represented by ALPA which means zero zip nada is going to be done about it lest it cost the association money in dues!

Comair and Eagle are a good example of how well their current union represents them. they finally got a decent contract for what they fly based upon their other peers and what has it got them? they are now being parted out and sold off in a slow death spiral. They are suffering the same fate that their legacy namesakes suffered under ALPA leadership....being undercut and outsourced by cheaper ALPA labor!

On the other hand Republic Airlines which is not ALPA is flying for 5 different airlines. They are somehow able to fly in 5 different paint jobs and make money and pay a bit above their industry counterparts at ALPA carriers while USAir, DAL, UA, etc etc all cannot figure out how to fly ONE paintjob using anywhere from 5 to 10 airlines apiece.

SWA and Jetblue do not have the problems we have, JBL may not make it but at least they will go down as a whole instead of being eaten from the inside. And SWA has been kicking everybodys ass for years with just ONE pilot list and ONE aircraft type!! The entire industry trembles in front of a crowd from Texas with a little in-house union and the highest payrates in the industry! There is never a question of who is going to be flying SWA colors next month.....SWA pilots will be!!

Me....I can barely keep up with who is flying my paintjob today.....much less a month or year from now. When will I get furloughed again so that a 21 year old guy with 400 hours can fly my schedule in my paintjob in a jet the size of my f-100 or 737 or 320? Next month? next year? next week?

 

[Dr. Rumack]

KERO,

I wish more easties made their arguments calm and logical like yours. In fact, I (west) agree with everything you posted. I do not think there are very many people out here that could really disagree with the point of your message. In fact, if the timing was not so horrible, I would not be surprised to see quite a bunch of guys out west jumping on your bandwagon.
Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible. Your outstanding points just mask the fact that this drive was a result of not wanting to bind to arbitration. Had you started this a year ago or a year from now I could get over that fact. I admire Karl Rove quite a bit for his ability to get people to vote for what he is showing them in one hand while not talking about what he has behind his back.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

KERO,

I wish more easties made their arguments calm and logical like yours. In fact, I (west) agree with everything you posted. I do not think there are very many people out here that could really disagree with the point of your message. In fact, if the timing was not so horrible, I would not be surprised to see quite a bunch of guys out west jumping on your bandwagon.
Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible. Your outstanding points just mask the fact that this drive was a result of not wanting to bind to arbitration. Had you started this a year ago or a year from now I could get over that fact. I admire Karl Rove quite a bit for his ability to get people to vote for what he is showing them in one hand while not talking about what he has behind his back.

The thing about it is that most of the east guys could live with the nic award if they were given some kind of protection to ensure that they could at least make a decent living or not get furloughed again. The raises that a combined contract means as currently laid out on the table are a long way away from what they had in 01, and still come up short of what they get if they stay seperate. Seperate means that they get their captain seat back and make more money than they could under the new combined list (remaining an F/O until retire.) with the raise even though it is at a lower pay rate. I have yet to meet a guy that really dislikes AWA guys, I am sure there are a few, there always are on both sides.

The problem is that every pilot on the list after the furloughs was a captain before 2002...everyone with the exception of maybe some of the 767 and 330 F/O's. The Nic award means that most of those ex Captains will never see the left seat again. Most I have talked to could live with that, if the pay and QOL was there, but even the raise that is proposed falls way way short of what they gave up, or stand to gain if the list stays seperate. Most lost (or relatively lost if you prefer) 14 to 16 years in the award. I have a good friend who was my favorite CAPt. to fly with before the furloughs who was hired in 1986. He never got furloughed and is now junior to a guy hired in 2000. The only problem he has with the nic award is that he has to wait for 14 years worth of guys who are younger than him to upgrade and then retire before he can get back to making the money he made in 2001. For him it is simply a money issue, nothing else. he has x amount of years to try and get enough to retire on and he doesn't see that it is possible under the current list. He will retire as an F/O after 30 years of continueous service to the same company if the NIC award stands as is with no fence. That is the brick wall that most of these guys are facing right now.

For me it doesn't really matter, on paper I lost 4 years in the deal. Bottom of the list is bottom of the list. The threat to my career is not the Nic award or my age, my achilles heel is the 8 regionals flying 76, 86, 99 seats or more in the colors of my airline. heck the EMB 170 and 75's were direct replacements of my job in 01. Now the 99 seaters are a direct threat to my job now....and that is where ALPA fails horribly. Everyday there is another ALPA sanctioned pilot group buying more and larger jets with the express purpose of costing me salary or my job completly....while that same ALPA is the one that is supposed to be protecting my salary and job. ALPA is the weak link in my career so far, not my bretheren at AWA.

I guess there are two schools of thought on the USAPA drive. One that the guys like my buddy have, and one that guys like me have. I am young enough to recover from any damage or perceived damage done by the Nic award. I would right now vote for the newbie union just over the facts that are damaging to me, ie the outsourcing and whipsawing that is proliferated by ALPA's policies and trying to represent everypilot in the country.

I could care less if the guy in the left seat is younger or less experienced or both than me as long as my career is reasonably protected and Pay and QOL are good. I have been a 121 Capt. twice now and also been a 37 year old 10000 hour 747 F/O sitting next to a 30 year old 6000 hour Captain. That is not what is the threat to my future career at Airways.

End result, two groups of pilots, younger and older with two different motivations for looking seriously at a new one airline, one list, protect only your own, and not the competition union. Like I said, it is hard to argue the results of SWA and AA. AA has issues like all legacies but they decimated ALPA in the TWA thing and have steered clear of BK while still trying to take back all their flying. SWA....well their results speak for themselves.

My reasoning is not for everyone, but it is worth a shot to me after being beat on and decimated while being a union man at three different airlines. In my veiw ALPA needs to get on the stick in hurry or I will find somebody else that will. They have used up all their freebies with me in my short 15 year career.

 

[m80drvr]

I have flown with 20 different Capts over the past few months and everyone of them is very vocal about getting rid of ALPA.

And I have NEVER flown with a captain that voted for the current we were working under. (3 different airlines)

Not a slam but most pilots will say anything that will make the trip easier. With the age 60 change I would assume that most AAA captains will vote in whatever will get them a faster pay raise. Unfortunately that is not the pickleballers. Does ALPA suck? YES. But will USAPA get the four striper next to you a raise in the next 4 years? NO.

Voting in USAPA will ensure that all of will get stapled during the next merger. You may not like what ALPA merger policy did to you (due the the east's poor representation) but at least there is a policy in place. With USAPA you have your own merger policy and no money to defend it. Say a UAL merger does happen, they are a pretty young pilot group compared to AAA, they and all of their ALPA resources will be used to fight USAPA's DOH "merger policy"

Like I said the east pilots will be demanding relative seniority after they see what an ALPA carrier will do to them in a merger. Again Remember TWA.




weasel_lips
Please enlighten me as to how giving the east pilots MORE vacation, Better duty rigs, and more days off for reserves wil force the company to furlough. Show me some facts and back up your statements.

 

[Dr. Rumack]

Don't make me start to respect the opinions of east guys; I do not go to web boards for that. Mind you, I said respect, not agree. I am not going to drone on like others regurging the west points as I am sure you are well aware of them. I stand by my statement that if you proposed dumping alpa at any other time I would be on board. Since it is obviously a smoke screen to prevent a merged list, as I think you concede, it will always be considered a tactic to unbind arbitration instead of a method of resolving many of the actual issues you mention. I look forward to arguing with you east people over a beer about more important things like how much I can not stand the Patriots and Red Sox.