US Airways hiring

[vetrider]

KERO,

Here is the problem. The timing IS horrible.

There is a reason their timing is horrible. Thats because no matter what kind of stuff they throw at us, eloquent or not, this drive is about nic, period.

Oh I know, the final straw, blah blah blah.... my ass, its about nic. They think they can outmuscle the west with numbers, who knows, maybe they can, we'll see.

 

[m80drvr]

Hey Kero

I like most of your posts becaus you left out the emotion that rules the east right now. That being said I do find some of your last post interesting.

The thing about it is that most of the east guys could live with the nic award if they were given some kind of protection to ensure that they could at least make a decent living or not get furloughed again.

So who in your estimation should get furloughed so you don't have to? I am furloughed AAA, so at 18 other west pilots, shoud we have to lose our jobs so you can get your career back on track? We moved on to a carrier that bought your company from bankrupcy. Please explain to me why I should be furloughed from a company that had planes on order, was making money and was HIRING 200 pilots a year.

The raises that a combined contract means as currently laid out on the table are a long way away from what they had in 01, and still come up short of what they get if they stay seperate. Seperate means that they get their captain seat back and make more money than they could under the new combined list (remaining an F/O until retire.) with the raise even though it is at a lower pay rate.

Who said their was going to be a flood of west pilots taking the east seats. If I remember correctly much of the retirements that were occuring were from the right seat anyway. This arguement also insinuates that the west brought no retirement so the table.


I have yet to meet a guy that really dislikes AWA guys,

It's nice to see you give us a chance to make a good first impression.

I am sure there are a few, there always are on both sides.

The problem is that every pilot on the list after the furloughs was a captain before 2002...everyone with the exception of maybe some of the 767 and 330 F/O's.

That may be true but please show me some numbers. AAA had MANY bypassers that bid QOL.



The Nic award means that most of those ex Captains will never see the left seat again. Most I have talked to could live with that, if the pay and QOL was there, but even the raise that is proposed falls way way short of what they gave up, or stand to gain if the list stays seperate. Most lost (or relatively lost if you prefer) 14 to 16 years in the award. I have a good friend who was my favorite CAPt. to fly with before the furloughs who was hired in 1986. He never got furloughed and is now junior to a guy hired in 2000.

So he should have gone from last on the list to senior line holding captain in one day? I will assume that he was at the bottom of the east list fo at the time of the merger, where exactly do you think is would be fair to slot him in?




The only problem he has with the nic award is that he has to wait for 14 years worth of guys who are younger than him to upgrade and then retire before he can get back to making the money he made in 2001.

I cannot find where seniority at ANY airline is based on age. I'll keep looking though.



For him it is simply a money issue, nothing else. he has x amount of years to try and get enough to retire on and he doesn't see that it is possible under the current list. He will retire as an F/O after 30 years of continueous service to the same company if the NIC award stands as is with no fence. That is the brick wall that most of these guys are facing right now.


The west is already paying quite a price. No new hires for THREE years, complete list stagnation. The arguement that the east is paying the price for this merger is beginning to fall on deaf ears. You as an unemployeed pilot at the time of the merger will be off reserve with a better QOL than me in a short time.

For me it doesn't really matter, on paper I lost 4 years in the deal. Bottom of the list is bottom of the list. The threat to my career is not the Nic award or my age, my achilles heel is the 8 regionals flying 76, 86, 99 seats or more in the colors of my airline. heck the EMB 170 and 75's were direct replacements of my job in 01. Now the 99 seaters are a direct threat to my job now....and that is where ALPA fails horribly. Everyday there is another ALPA sanctioned pilot group buying more and larger jets with the express purpose of costing me salary or my job completly....while that same ALPA is the one that is supposed to be protecting my salary and job. ALPA is the weak link in my career so far, not my bretheren at AWA.

AMEN Brother



However this works out it is VERY unfortunate that East guys hate me for what I have done to their career. I and the AWA pilot group did nothing but help your career. The people who screwed you were Wolf, Gangwhal, and the dumba$$ that was CEO after them. Then you may want to thank your reps for demanding DOH even after the arbitrator told them to change their arguement.

 

[TWA Dude]

Thats always possible. What I am seeing out there does not show it though.

I'm sure that's true but it's also true that people often talk tougher than they vote.

No wish to speak with us or answer our questions while on furlough and before until all the sudden now I matter again because I get a vote on tossing them out,...

Interesting how your laundry-list of issues with ALPA are largely at the MEC/LEC level. In fact, though no Easties admit to it publicly, your local leadership has failed you greatly. Remember the transcripts!!! I keep harping on this because I truly don't understand how your leadership can withhold such information from you yet you don't scream for their recall. Had you guys known what Nicolau had said his decision wouldn't have come as such a shock. Your leadership had an obligation to warn you then acted as "shocked" as the rank-and-file when Nicolau delivered exactly what he said he would. How can you possibly guarantee the USAPA leadership would be any different?

You also talk about the degredation of QOL at USAirways under ALPA's leadership -- as if any other union would've done better. The union always seems to get the blame when things go sour but in truth with the financial hardships USAirways was facing no union would've done any better. More scapegoatism. When faced with taking concessions or liquidation most pilots will choose concessions.

It has not been lost on me either that the only group in the country that has taken an active stance to bring all flying under a single brand back to a single seniority list is not ALPA. APA at AA is the only ones will enough gonads to try it, why???

I gotta laugh when you put the APA up on a pedastal. Don't forget that I'm a member of the APA and I frequent their message boards. They are equally screwed up as ALPA. They also constantly bemoan their lack of influence in Washington. The APA is not an organiztion to aspire to.

And what about SWAPA? Well, my friend, if and when Southwest ceases being profitable, those stock-options tank, upgrades stagnate, and those long productive days lose their appeal I guarantee the satisfaction with SWAPA will ebb just as it happens at any airline when things aren't peachy.

And you mention Chautauqua/Rebublic. I can spell Chautauqua correctly because I used to fly for them. That's right, I was a Teamster as well. You think the Teamsters deserve the credit for the juggernaut Republic has grown into? I guess this is scapegoatism in reverse. Republic has won so many codeshare agreements because its management has undercut the competition. This has nothing to do with the pilots beyond the fact that Republic pilots aren't the highest-paid in the industry. You can be rest-assured that when Republics costs go up the next round of codeshare agreements will go to the airline that undercuts them. And the Teamsters won't be able to do anything about it.

The ALPA of the 30's and 40's is long dead. Now they are just a different form of airline mgmt.

Oooo, bold statement. Once again, scapegoatism. When times are tough we look to our union to save us but it's simply asking the impossible. Not only is the ALPA of the 30-40s gone but so too is that economy and regulated industry. The post-deregulated era reshaped the industry. The Legacy carriers no longer rule the skies exclusively. Simply being a Legacy no longer entitles you to an advantage over a smaller carrier in a merger.

I strive for pragmatism over emotionalism. Your points for USAPA are really just pro-change as if any change will be good. That's a fallacy. Dumping ALPA may give you a visceral high but when the honeymoon is over and USAPA is representing 1700 pilots violently opposed to anything that alters the status-quo (aka the Transition Agreement) you're going to find yourselves unhappy still.

ALPA Merger Policy is negotiate, mediate, arbitrate. That's as fair as fair can be. The result could be DOH, Relative Seniority, a staple job, or anything in between, depending on what's fair as determined by a neutral party. No Eastie complained about it until they got something they didn't like. Your reaction is USAPA. And the USAPA guys are leading you to believe a new union somehow nullifies previous agreements. Agreements can be altered but a union would never do something that advantages one pilot group over another, no would it?

Back to the APA, it's kind of funny how there used to be a substantial movement to rejoin ALPA. ALPA had budgeted like $15,000 in 2000 for the recruiting effort. But when they saw how ALPA sold-out the TWA pilots the movement largely died. After all, who'd want to be in a union that sells out a larger group of its own pilots? If USAPA's goal were truly to represent ALL USAirways pilots they wouldn't be telling y'all they can nullify the Nic Award, now would they?

Not all change is good.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

M-80, In Order

1. When I say protection from furlough I refer to stopping the outsourcing and the proliferation of 86 and 99 seat mainline replacement jets. Let someother airline go find their own customers.

2. There were approx 350 Captains retiring out of the first 500 numbers alone in the next 4 years prior to the 65 thing. Retirements are listed on seperate thread here somewhere but ratio is about 180 to 60 or so a year for next 10 years...now 15 quick averages of course.

3. I never judge a book by the cover or the uniform...gotta fly with a guy first to see if he is an a$$hole!!

4. Don't have the numbers handy, but as a 737 200 driver I flew with all the junior Capt.s and all were hired in 87 to 89. The furloughs went back to 88. A few bypassers sure, but not in any large numbers.

5. Not a factor of slotting him. He is just worried about being able to retire. He is not the type of guy to care what seat, just looking to make a good living. For him it is a simple problem of which contract or list is best for him. By his calculations fighting the nic as stands and staying seperate gets him the best salvage out of his career. just like the rest of us view it.

6. The "younger" comment refers to the fact that they will still be on the list above him when he has to retire as an "older" pilot. Only used the term younger to show the uphill battle he has over getting back to the left seat. Time in service would be a better term to use but I would have caught heat over thatone two. Here goes though. He has 22 years of unbroken time in service to AAA while the guy senior to him has 7 years.

7. List stagnation is a price of airline flying. we all just got another 5 years of stagnation thanks in part to ALPA. AAA may have gone away with out the merger, but AWA was no real prize either. We both had our problems. If somehow we can come to some understanding, even if it is keeping the list seperate until every pilot prior to 1990 retires (I know, Iknow, just saying for sake of point) we could make this into a nice place to work with good conditions.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

TWA,

I am under no illusions that APA or USAPA is the cure to all problems.

ALPA however has completley failed. Looking back at the last 10 years industry wide proves that.

Some is the LEC, some is National. National is the only one with the power to stop the whipsawing and outsourcing, if they were not trying to represent the ones doing the outsourcing. The LEC's are also ultimately controlled by what ALPA national does.

You are right the teamsters suck, as an ex Republic 170/175 driver I can attest to that. Point is that Republic manages to fly 5 paintjobs and it takes 5 to 10 airlines to fly one paint job....that is a failing of the union to protect the flying and keep it where it belongs. In house. 320 RJ's are just around the corner. Skybus is just a taste of it. Laugh now but 10 years ago an EMB 175 sized airplane flying at a regional was a gutbusting joke that would never happen. You gonna depend on ALPA to keep your bus for you at mainline with their track record? SKYBUS is probably going to be looking to get into the codeshare market very soon here.

I do not have all the answers, but ALPA sure doesn't look like they have a clue what is happening either. Change is sometimes good, gets rid of the deadwood and refocuses people on what their priorities are.

ALPA still has a chance, the vote hasn't happened yet, change as you say is coming, either ALPA changes its priorities or the pilot groups will start doing it for them. USAirways I think is just the test case if what I hear from buddies at the other legacies is accurate.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There is a reason their timing is horrible. Thats because no matter what kind of stuff they throw at us, eloquent or not, this drive is about nic, period.

Oh I know, the final straw, blah blah blah.... my ass, its about nic. They think they can outmuscle the west with numbers, who knows, maybe they can, we'll see.

At my current place on the sen. list age 65 hurt me far more than NIC did. Nic is a done deal, I am looking much farther down the road. I see skybus as our future unless we take back control of our flying. ALPA so far is not doing that.

Bottom line then I am done here. Thanks for the discussions all regardless of which side you are on.

I have given this upcoming vote lots of thought in the past few weeks, talked to a lot of people etc. Bottom line for me is this.

Why should I vote to stay in ALPA given all that they have done or not done in the past 10 years? Under their watch at three airlines I have seen my career decimated and thrashed. Outside influences affected it sure such as 9/11. But our underlying problem is outsourcing. That was fully in ALPA's control to stop if they had wanted to. Outsourcing is the plague that is killing our industry. ALPA shows no sign of even attempting to control it.

That is my final question. Disregarding any theoretical or possible merger or the sun exploding, Why should I vote to keep ALPA on the property? What have they done lately to keep my support and money coming in?

The 400 RJ's they allowed to start flying around in our paintjob in the last 6 years while they parked 200 of our airplanes is not a good answer to make me send them a check!

 

[vetrider]

Actually Kerosene I believe that you are sincere, and I sense you are a good guy. I should leave you out of my generalization. Overall though, in the grand scheme of things, I still believe that if nic would have let the east have their way we wouldn't have heard of usapa.

I'm far from the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I can see whats going on here. Heck, the usapa founders have actually spelled it out, they are so blinded they've let it out no matter how else they try to make it look honorable.

 

[TWA Dude]

ALPA however has completley failed. Looking back at the last 10 years industry wide proves that.

ALL unions have failed due to forces larger than us: the economy and bankruptcy court. I'd really like to know how you think any union could've stopped the concessions and furloughs of the past six years. I'm not saying Woerth couldn't or shouldn't have been more visionary but really what would've saved this profession? (That is, besides the popular option of letting one Legacy liquidate so the others should survive.)

LEC's are also ultimately controlled by what ALPA national does.

I completely disagree. May I remind you that your MEC is suing our MEC? Do you think the lawsuit has merit? (And did you know that your attorney (Roland Wilder) is the same guy who ALPA supplied to defend the TWA pilots?) If National was controlling your MEC I'd think they wouldn't allow such a lawsuit. They also wouldn't have allowed you to withdraw from Joint Negotiations.

Point is that Republic manages to fly 5 paintjobs and it takes 5 to 10 airlines to fly one paint job....that is a failing of the union to protect the flying and keep it where it belongs.

Once again, ALPA and APA both failed at this. When Comair started flying those CRJs in the early '90s nobody could've known what was in store. Not even management.

320 RJ's are just around the corner. Skybus is just a taste of it.

That doesn't make sense. Skybus is a startup like Jetblue was and like Virgin America is. RJ airlines are "virtual" airlines that fly at the behest of their codeshare partners. (Exception: that Expressjet operation out west which is doing poorly.)

Laugh now but 10 years ago an EMB 175 sized airplane flying at a regional was a gutbusting joke that would never happen. You gonna depend on ALPA to keep your bus for you at mainline with their track record?

You gonna depend on USAPA to do what nobody else can do?

SKYBUS is probably going to be looking to get into the codeshare market very soon here.

Nope. Their model is Ryanair and that doesn't allow for codeshares.

Change is sometimes good, gets rid of the deadwood and refocuses people on what their priorities are.

How'd that work for the APA? I'm not saying they didn't have a good reason for seceding but they're now the biggest airline in the world and they haven't been able to do any better than ALPA -- at anything.

USAirways I think is just the test case if what I hear from buddies at the other legacies is accurate.

Perhaps so. And when the rest see the poopstorm that descends on us should USAPA win they'll know. That fact is over a third of the combined USAirways pilots are dead-set against USAPA. That's no formula for sucess. If USAPA wins do you think the West will want to work with the East?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

When Comair started flying those CRJs in the early '90s nobody could've known what was in store. Not even management.


If USAPA wins do you think the West will want to work with the East?

1st. No not in the early 90's, but everybody even dumb old me knew what was coming by 2000, and if you couldn't see it by Jan 2002 you were dead. In 2000 USAirways had a total of 12 RJ's flying in their colors.......we have hundreds now. And that is after we tried to control them on a local level. Without National support it was all just pissing in the wind.

2nd. And that would differ from now in what way?


Not working together in a new union with a chance of better control over our brand flying and bringing more airplanes inhouse, or not working together in the same set up that sent 400 RJ's out to 8 different airlines. Really I do not see where you are going with this. We are about as disfunctional a mess as you can get right now in regards to East/West. A change from ALPA would only rearrange the deck chairs, 1/3 and 2/3 would still be the split.

I am still looking for a reason to keep ALPA on the property. I have wracked my brain over the past weeks looking for a reason and have not found anything better than "ALPA has a good aeromedical division" So at least I can get good medical advise while they work me to the bone for 1/2 my old rates and half the time at home.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Oh and my SKYBUS comments were designed to point out the fact that A-320's are already being flown cheaper than RJ's are. It is only a matter of time before mgmt figures out that they can profit from the bus's better cost to seat ratios and a guy shows up with a bucket of paint to slap "Express" on the side of our busses. The only reason that the 190's do not have express on them yet is that there appears to have been at least a few hairy T's still left in a negotiating committee. Bedford at Republic however does include the 190 in their long range (read late 08 early 09) business plan. Since we are their largest "customer" and we are what got him in the 170/190 business in the first place...........

 

[TWA Dude]

Without National support it was all just pissing in the wind.

USAirways wasn't unique. The same thing was going on at every Legacy. I don't like to sound fatalistic but I really don't think there was a choice. There hadn't been 50-seat mainline planes in decades. Many commuter airlines were already flying 70+ seat turboprops. The cat was already out of the bag -- another effect of deregulation.

Not working together in a new union with a chance of better control over our brand flying and bringing more airplanes inhouse, or not working together in the same set up that sent 400 RJ's out to 8 different airlines. Really I do not see where you are going with this.

Were I'm going with this is that the "problem" the East claims it's having is coming from the East. The West isn't looking to bring in a new union. If USAPA wins you'll have the double problems of an ineffective union (as most are) and a hopping-mad third of your pilots. You'll be going from one big problem to two. See?

We are about as disfunctional a mess as you can get right now in regards to East/West. A change from ALPA would only rearrange the deck chairs, 1/3 and 2/3 would still be the split.

If USAPA loses the East will have no choice but to re-enter joint negotiations -- or continue with LOA 93.

I am still looking for a reason to keep ALPA on the property.

When the choices are "bad" or "worse" one chooses "bad". That's reason enough to keep ALPA.

Oh and my SKYBUS comments were designed to point out the fact that A-320's are already being flown cheaper than RJ's are.

What do you mean by cheaper? An A380 has the lowest cost-per-seat but that doesn't make it a good plane for the PHL-LGA route. RJs are only efficient on long, thin routes. Plus, startups always have cheaper operating costs. Notice what's happened to Jetblue? Even Southwest isn't as spunky as in the past.

The only reason that the 190's do not have express on them yet is that there appears to have been at least a few hairy T's still left in a negotiating committee.

I agree but we paid a huge cost to secure those planes: low salaries. Once again, you place the blame on ALPA but I submit any other union would've done the same. No union can or will protect us from a harsh economy and management willing to go to bankruptcy court to break us. Future legislation may correct some of this if we can keep the Republicans out of office long enough.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

USAirways wasn't unique. The same thing was going on at every Legacy. I don't like to sound fatalistic but I really don't think there was a choice. There hadn't been 50-seat mainline planes in decades. Many commuter airlines were already flying 70+ seat turboprops. The cat was already out of the bag -- another effect of deregulation.


Were I'm going with this is that the "problem" the East claims it's having is coming from the East. The West isn't looking to bring in a new union. If USAPA wins you'll have the double problems of an ineffective union (as most are) and a hopping-mad third of your pilots. You'll be going from one big problem to two.


See?If USAPA loses the East will have no choice but to re-enter joint negotiations -- or continue with LOA 93.When the choices are "bad" or "worse" one chooses "bad". That's reason enough to keep ALPA.


What do you mean by cheaper? An A380 has the lowest cost-per-seat but that doesn't make it a good plane for the PHL-LGA route. RJs are only efficient on long, thin routes.

1. So by your estimation we might as well go ahead and top out the pay at 65k for Captains on A-320? No not all went that way. All had problems, we at Airways by far were the most screwed by the RJ's. AA probably fared the best by keeping the companies flying them to a minimum..meaning better control over it. DAL held their own better than others as well though not by much.

2. You already have a hopping mad 2/3rds of the pilots. By your standards decreasing that to 1/3 would be an improvment. I have never seen a pilot group so united against something in my career. Regardless of reasons which differ per the age group and position. The last MEC message sounded more like the USAPA team than the ALPA team in regards to Praters actions this week. For guys that were downgraded then all the sudden told that they will NEVER get their capt seat back there is no where to go but up. My estimation by looking at the list the above downgraded pilots constitute about half the active list at time of merger filing. Remember that there were no F/O's left at Airways after the furloughs(except a few F/O's by choice on the heavies). The Junior Capt. in 01 was a 1989 hire date. The furloughs went to 1988. Everyone of those guys is effectively barred from ever sitting in the left seat by the nic award and age.

3. Bad and worse have very different definitions depending on which coast you sit on. For the east guys I talk with every one says the same thing, "There is nowhere to go but up, My career is destroyed as it stands now"

4. E 170's doing PHL to DFW, PHL to HOU, DCA DFW, DCA HOU, the list goes on and on. Mostly oversold all the time. Plenty of traffic for a bus or 737 but done at half the price......320's as RJ's will be next, oh it will not actually be a 320 but the Brazilian or canadian version of one. Take a look at the two companies "projects" pages on their web sights. Even Airbus has an "RJ" in the works. You don't really think they are planning on selling that puppy to the mainlines do you? the 170's at RAH are running everywhere and I do mean everywhere that the Busses and 737's are. The 50 seaters have all the short ex Turboprop routes. With ALPA's full blessing.

EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat. Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements" All the east guys want is the seats and retirements that they brought to the merger. 860 in the first 5 years alone (adjust for age 65) If an agreement was made that guaranteed the east guys that they would get the east retirements seats there would be no problems between the two groups at all. Then we could move on to stopping the outsourcing problem that we have.

 

[PositiveRate]

Kerosene,

You need to re-read all of TWA Dude's posts on this thread because he is consistently spot on with his analysis.

To vote for USAPA because you have had a bad 15 yrs in the industry is as good as throwing darts in the dark.

The USAPA drive was born from a desire to undue the Nicolau award - had the ruling been LOS w/fences (aka DOH in disguise) - we would not be having this discussion.

Politicized leadership, apathy from the membership and an every pilot/pilot group for himself mentality is what is killing the airline union as we know it. USAPA does not have a solution to this. It was formed as means of undoing the process that led to the Nicolau award and starting over at the expense of every current and future security offered to you by ALPA.

ALPA offers a significant resource base that we would be pissing away with USAPA...all that will amount to is the same set of problems with less protections in the event we (God forbid) need any one of many career saving functions that ALPA will dutifully perform on our behalf.

Ideally you pay dues for an entire career and get only a magazine subscription - then you can be one of the lucky ones...but there are many pilots who can attest to the fact that the resources ALPA provides can save your career - USAPA would take many years and countless assesments to build the base necessary to provide such valuable insurance. If you desire change so badly, get involved and spearhead efforts from within. There seems to be widespread contentment with the path your MEC has put you on...that scares the West pilots and has broken any trust we have that your silent majority feels differently than what is put out by your leaders


We can change this course, but we have to work together - you need to think long and hard about the particular motivations that cause your leaders to publically roadblock progress of any kind before you foolishly vote for USAPA because of your desire for change.

What are your feelings on the fact that the East MEC has sued the West MEC? What do you believe are their motivations? Do you think this will affect anything positive for your career in the future? Your problems are at home - not at grandma ALPA's house.

 

[PositiveRate]

k,

"EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat. Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements" All the east guys want is the seats and retirements that they brought to the merger. "

They brought their seat to a firesale for all practical purposes...yet all of the well-reasoned arguments from the East RE the "our attrition is ours and ours only" mentality assume that US Airways was not going to liquidate and was healthy enough to recover to the point where it is now with enough stability to say - "hey...this is my part of the pie". The only reason that stance can even be taken is the merger.

 

[TWA Dude]

1. So by your estimation we might as well go ahead and top out the pay at 65k for Captains on A-320?

I don't see how your question follows from my statements.

All had problems, we at Airways by far were the most screwed by the RJ's.

If you really think the RJs screwed you you're a lot more naive than I thought. Who allowed all those RJ's? (Hint: the pilots of USAirways.) Don't feel bad, though, because the same thing happened everywhere else.

AA probably fared the best by keeping the companies flying them to a minimum..meaning better control over it.

LOL! The APA has slightly better SCOPE because they didn't go through bankruptcy.

DAL held their own better than others as well though not by much.

Republic flies E170/175s for DAL. Yeah, they held their own great.

2. You already have a hopping mad 2/3rds of the pilots. By your standards decreasing that to 1/3 would be an improvment.

You need to work on your fractions. USAPA would increase the hopping-madders from 2/3 to 3/3.

I have never seen a pilot group so united against something in my career.

Might doesn't make right.

The furloughs went to 1988. Everyone of those guys is effectively barred from ever sitting in the left seat by the nic award and age.

Okay, yet again somebody needs to explain this to you. The harm to the careers of the USAirways pilots was already done before the AWA merger was announced. Nicolau didn't take one thing away from you guys. Nor did he give us anything we didn't already have. But you don't really need me to explain this; Nicolau eloquently explained his reasoning in the Award. Please re-read it instead of pestering us with your misconceptions.

3. Bad and worse have very different definitions depending on which coast you sit on.

Let me assure you it can get worse. You speak of the East's unity. Just wait until USAPA unifies the West.

Plenty of traffic for a bus or 737 but done at half the price...

You need to learn some more about airline economics. Pilot costs are a small percentage of a jet's operating cost. There's no sense in putting a smaller airplane on a route that can profitably sustain a larger one. NONE!

EDIT: It should be noted that I have never heard an East guy say that they wanted any westies seat.

Funny, but when an Eastie says he wants DOH that means they want zero upgrades for the West for years and for us to be your furlough-fodder. That's what DOH means when every active East pilot on the day of the merger is senior to 3/4 of the AWA list. Do you disagree?

Most specifically say that "They brought their seats with them, I do not want any seat they brought or any seat from their retirements".

In the summer of 2005 half the USAirways pilots were captains and half were FO's, right? The Nicolau list maintains that. What YOU want is for all those FOs to become captains before any more AWA FOs do. Does that really sound fair?

If an agreement was made that guaranteed the east guys that they would get the east retirements seats there would be no problems between the two groups at all.

You already got them. Problem solved!