US Airways Final Recalls: Take it, or Leave it?

[On Your Six]

You usually get what you pay for....I doubt many employers have heard of Aspen University and an MBA from said university probably won't cary much weight. But if all you need is the ticket then make sure it's accredited and go for it.

A couple years ago I read an article on starting salary for MBA grads from Universities across the country. I think Harvard MBA's had an average starting salary of around 150k/year and there were maybe 20 or so others that all averaged upwards of 100k right out of school. You might want to ask Aspen if they have data on what happens with their grads...

MBAs are a dime a dozen too. I would probably return to USAirways and pursue a financial services (maybe financial planning) job on the side. You can take a series of tests (and test prep courses) and then work as an apprentice with Financial Planners on your days off to build a client base (check out Ameriprise and American Express I believe).

Yeah, that would likely be exhausting but it is all about building recurring income from your clients' investments. I wouldn't go the real estate route in this market. Go back to USAirways and cross your fingers. Good luck.

 

[AV80R]

Well, if you're so capitalist- then why do you support the idea of a seniority list at all?... Seniority compromises the free hand of competition.

Well, because without a seniority system I’m afraid the selection to the captain position wouldn’t be based on selecting the best candidate or the best performer but rather on who’s got the degree in “butt-kissing”?

Can i or you- go to a competing airline and say- "i've got 7000 hours, 5 type ratings- i've been a captain on 4 airplanes for one corporate office and 2 airlines- graduated cum laude, 50 letters of recommendation attesting to my work ethic and abilities- what can you offer me?" Can i get an offer for more responsibility? More money? Do the best/most efficient pilots- even most qualified- get to be captain? … The reason it's different than your examples is b/c if you have stocks that consistently underperform- you sell those stocks and buy others.

I see what you are saying and it suck for sure. And a quick answer is yes, there are airlines out there that will hire you straight into the left position – Pinnacle one of them. However, the position itself is not the answer as at some airlines the copilot makes more than a captain at other airlines. Just like you said, when your stocks underperform – you sell them – and you do it as early as you can. Well, when your company underperforms and you lose your belief in it, you should sell, or resign and start somewhere else as early as you can. The only problem nowadays is that the government allows those underperforming airlines to linger forever. If true capitalism prevailed they’d be gone in 6-12 months and no one would have to waste 12 years of their lives before realizing that their suspicions were correct and that they did indeed lose their pensions and other benefits at.

Capitalism is supposed to work for us= not just against us. What i'm saying is that if we're going to set up a partially socialist system- then go all the way and let it work for us-

I know what you’re saying but to somehow have a national seniority number even when working for competing airlines is just not logical. You’re supposed to compete and if so how can you possibly cooperate in the form of seniority number? Heck, you’d see major “migrations” from one airline to another every time an airline’s quarterly profit dropped. I do agree with you that we have a partially socialist system but it’s not the seniority number but the government’s chapter-11 bailout guarantee.

You can be higher qualified and better than many members of your new airline's seniority list and you will still get worse schedules and much less money.

Correct, and that’s the way it should be. First of all – “higher qualified” is a very relative term, you might have 5 type rating versus someone who only has one - well if he/she has the type rating and the experience on the airplane you’ll be flying and you don’t, one could argue that you are less qualified. It’d be a never ending debate. You should be rewarded for selecting and for believing in a successful enterprise. If you decided to gamble (and I do know it’s a gamble for most of us) and lost the bet – I see no reason why I or anyone else should reward you because we are feeling sorry for your wrong decision.

Do you really want to lecture me about capitalism and our current system?

Listen buddy, I am not lecturing you or anyone else; I am just explaining why I do not agree with you. You asked for a system that I disagree with and you asked for it in an online forum. Well, I am not sure how I may explain why I disagree with you without you perceiving it as a lecture. In a sense you were trying to lecture me on a socialist idea that’s been proven wrong before, so there you go…

 

[waveflyer]

granted... not a lecture. bad choice of words.

And I'll grant you that seniority solves more problems than it creates-- ie: Senators kids getting to be 747 captains...good ole boys club, etc. I absolutely agree that there are aspects of aviation that lend itself to collective bargaining and seniority. We just have to get it so it's not so penalizing to change companies. You say Darwinian capitalism= and you blame the gov't for bailing out airlines- well aren't we- as pilots who gave BILLIONS in concessions b/c we're so worried about protecting our seniority- also to blame?

The problem is that our current seniority system was created when you could expect your airline to survive your career. Now you can't reasonably expect that. Who anywhere has a 30 year crystal ball? What was a sound/great choice 10 years ago=- has rarely turned out to be in this industry. Who can make a good 30 year choice in an industry that sees airlines fail every 10 years.

Are you saying pilots at every airline that has liquidated or gone into bankruptcy- simply made a "bad" choice that you don't want to bail them out of? Is there any pilot in the u.s. that can afford to be that arrogant? (sorry for the attack- but every furloughed pilot and every former Eastern and PanAm pilot probably took exception to that.) (You know that pilots are stuck after a certain point- and the airline's performance has little to do with their own- Yet no employee in the airline will be as severly punished by an airline's failures as a pilot will. And we've created it that way.)_

I'll concede that we're not ready for a national list. But one thing we could do is raise First year pay across the industry to make it POSSIBLE for pilots to make the right choice and leave a sinking ship. Seniority is being used against us- and until we all realize that- This career will continue to be less and less valuable to pilots.

 

[AV80R]

Are you saying pilots at every airline that has liquidated or gone into bankruptcy- simply made a "bad" choice that you don't want to bail them out of? Is there any pilot in the u.s. that can afford to be that arrogant? (sorry for the attack- but every furloughed pilot and every former Eastern and PanAm pilot probably took exception to that.)

Not at all, you’re mixing up some things here. First of all, I have several friends who ended up getting furloughed from American, TWA, Delta, and USAirways. I have done everything in m power to try to help them out; I personally walked in their résumés to my previous employers and several of them were hired.

As far as the airlines themselves - you are correct - I do not believe government should bail them out at all - I can understand a small and temporary help a la post 9/11 help, but c'mon, what other industry do you know of where a company can linger in bankruptcy proceeding for 3 + years? Is that fair to the other airlines and the employees of those airlines? Is it fair to the employees of the failing airline to keep prolonging the inevitable?

I will do everything in my power to help my friends transition from one airline to another however I would never agree to give up my seniority for their sake. Their company wasn’t doing too well – time to move on! That doesn’t mean however that I should be “punished” for their company’s mistakes either. This is not about being arrogant – in my view, this is about being fair.

(You know that pilots are stuck after a certain point- and the airline's performance has little to do with their own- Yet no employee in the airline will be as severly punished by an airline's failures as a pilot will. And we've created it that way.)

True but I still haven’t heard what solution you’re proposing, except the national seniority list which is impractical, unfair and frankly stinks of socialism.

I'll concede that we're not ready for a national list. But one thing we could do is raise First year pay across the industry to make it POSSIBLE for pilots to make the right choice and leave a sinking ship. Seniority is being used against us- and until we all realize that- This career will continue to be less and less valuable to pilots.

I agree, raising first year pay would be very nice however I think maybe saving enough money for an emergency might also be a good idea. Ideally raising first year pay and saving up money could work to most pilots’ advantage

 

[PCL_128]

Folks, this is the problem that we have always had with this issue. The pilots at the airlines that are successful at that point in time (AV80R works for UPS, I believe) are always opposed because they don't want to "give up seniority to some guy at another airline," but ten years later when their company is doing poorly, they're the ones screaming for an NSL. Of course, by then, the guys at the previously poor performing company are doing pretty good and want nothing to do with an NSL for the same reasons that the other guy gave 10 years earlier.

Until pilots are willing to think collectively and start thinking about their fellow pilots at other airlines, then the NSL will never get anywhere. There has to be a shift in the way air line pilots think about seniority.

Waveflyer, you're absolutely right that the current system is no longer working under a deregulated industry. I would prefer to see the industry reregulated, but barring that, the NSL would be the best way to go. Unfortunately, I don't see the majority of the pilots in this country ever going along with it.

 

[jmreii]

Folks, this is the problem that we have always had with this issue. The pilots at the airlines that are successful at that point in time (AV80R works for UPS, I believe) are always opposed because they don't want to "give up seniority to some guy at another airline," but ten years later when their company is doing poorly, they're the ones screaming for an NSL. Of course, by then, the guys at the previously poor performing company are doing pretty good and want nothing to do with an NSL for the same reasons that the other guy gave 10 years earlier.

Until pilots are willing to think collectively and start thinking about their fellow pilots at other airlines, then the NSL will never get anywhere. There has to be a shift in the way air line pilots think about seniority.

Waveflyer, you're absolutely right that the current system is no longer working under a deregulated industry. I would prefer to see the industry reregulated, but barring that, the NSL would be the best way to go. Unfortunately, I don't see the majority of the pilots in this country ever going along with it.

If the airline industry was reregulated some airlines would disappear, and some airlines would be favored over some other airlines which would be just as bad as your days are numbered. The airlines are very similar to the auto industry inwhich they require quite a bit in capital to run and return very little for the amount invested. Many investors are using the airline industry as a write off, nobody expects them to really make it. Hopefully the industry will get it's act together and start making money one day. I plan on not holding my breath. Good luck to all.

 

[PCL_128]

If the airline industry was reregulated some airlines would disappear, and some airlines would be favored over some other airlines which would be just as bad as your days are numbered.

On what are you basing your assumptions? There would be no necessity to eliminate certain airlines under a reregulated industry. Airlines that operate the same routes would merely be required by some new version of the CAB to match their fares. The required fare would either cover expenses of both airlines, or the government would have to subsidize them to cover the difference. New routes would only be allowed that don't directly compete with another carrier. For instance, JetBlue and Delta couldn't both open a new route from LGA to Cancun. The new CAB would award the route to only one of the carriers and establish a fare that would cover costs.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

And the award for the furthest off-topic goes to...

 

[AV80R]

The pilots at the airlines that are successful at that point in time are always opposed because they don't want to "give up seniority to some guy at another airline," but ten years later when their company is doing poorly, they're the ones screaming for an NSL.

Your assumption is totally wrong; I opposed a national seniority list long time ago, even when I flew tiny turboporops for a living. I would feel exactly the same way had I flown a C172 or a B747; my reason from the practical point of view is that I simply have no idea how a common seniority list would work for pilots working for competing airlines - the only way I could see this somehow work is if there was only one airline in the US a la Aeroflot while Soviet Union was still a country… and we all know how successful of a company and a country it used to be...uke:

The main reason is my moral opposition to the idea - I was always against a NSL because it is a very socialist idea and I think socialism has failed as an ideology in pretty much all corners of the worlds – not sure why anyone would think it could work within the airline world.

I give you my personal promise that if 10 years down the road I find myself furloughed (I take absolutely nothing for granted in this industry) I will never ask for you to give up some of your seniority were I to seek employment at your airline.


And the award for the furthest off-topic goes to...

You’re right. I’ve explained why I think the idea of a national seniority list is both practically and morally wrong so I’m done discussing this topic. It’s not logical to continue because no matter what we all think – the idea is just an idea that’ll never happen no matter what.

So, the original question was: US Airways Final Recalls: Take it, or Leave it?

 

[jmreii]

On what are you basing your assumptions? There would be no necessity to eliminate certain airlines under a reregulated industry. Airlines that operate the same routes would merely be required by some new version of the CAB to match their fares. The required fare would either cover expenses of both airlines, or the government would have to subsidize them to cover the difference. New routes would only be allowed that don't directly compete with another carrier. For instance, JetBlue and Delta couldn't both open a new route from LGA to Cancun. The new CAB would award the route to only one of the carriers and establish a fare that would cover costs.

Under the former regulated system it was very difficult for a new entry, such as your jetblues and america west to come into existence. It was possible but very difficult. The former system regulated the fares,route structure. If you were losing your shirt you did not make the decision on the fares or the routes as you see with carriers today.

Under regulation I doubt you would see the type of expansion your are seeing with southwest for example. Who knows maybe pan am, eastern, and braniff would have last a little longer.

If the government is willing to subsidize the airlines that are operating, more power to them. Personally I would not hold my breath, that new air traffic control system should be just around the corner.