US Airways Contract Projections

[Turtle21]

If you are junior at a regional, then sure, what have you got to lose. Or if you are bouncing around the pattern in a 172, then the risk is pretty minimal. Leaving a senior position at any regional until the USAPA debacle has been concluded (through merger or implosion) would be foolish.

I'm told that USAir has over 100 qualified apps for every position they are filling next year. Only 3 pilots resigned last year. Maybe the jury is still out on the question of how bad it sucks to work here, but the voting so far is leaning toward "not too much".

Thinking your airline sucks and nobody should come to it is just an indicator or age. Its akin to folks who complain that young people have long hair, are rude, and play loud music. Don't worry about it though, its just a phase everyone goes through.

 

[weasel_lips]

It is 1,000 times better then any regional. The training is top notch, the crews are all great (except for bringing up the bird brain, of course), plenty of brand new airplanes on the line and being delivered, retirements are just cranking up. Sooner or later the pay issue will be corrected. Then it will be a home run for those that get on now......

 

[Bringupthebird]

There are 3 list here at Airways. We all know about East & West but there is also this little list that contains 2007 up to present new hires as well as furloughed West pilots who have taken recall.

None of those pilots have proffered recalls of the USAPA regime and therefore have plainly made their choice of who they will support. None of the 3rd list have stood up and said that west furloughees, fellow US pilots should not be placed below the 3rd list group, they are not new hires. The 3rd list has not stood up for anyone but the Cleary regime and there is no reason to give them special "conscientious objector" status in this un-civil war. When they demonstrate a willingness to take on the USAPA machine, then they will publicly affirm that they are cut from different cloth than the typical east slime.

What galls me the most is the USAPAians who are only willing to move on a combined contract AFTER they have secured their upgrade which is cemented by the No Bump No Flush. It is entirely consistent with their total lack of integrity, which I suppose is some consolation.

But simply having a majority to push an agenda that damages a significant portion of the pilot group will not go without some sort or judicial consequence. Again, the east entices the new hires with the shiny jets, but fails to tell them what awaits them once the veil comes down and both groups end up flying together. Why do you want to hide this from prospectiv e employees? Why is the east so committed to living off lies and half truths? Why di the mailings from Leonidas outlining the real truth of the impact of the Nic result in such an uproar, not over the truth of the content, but over boogiemen "stealing" public info?

The east has never acquired a taste for the truth, have they?

 

[Bringupthebird]

I'm told that USAir has over 100 qualified apps for every position they are filling next year. Only 3 pilots resigned last year. Maybe the jury is still out on the question of how bad it sucks to work here, but the voting so far is leaning toward "not too much".

How many turned down recall, in one of the worst aviation job markets in decades?:laugh:

 

[Bringupthebird]

Sooner or later the pay issue will be corrected.

You don't get it do you? Your own union is the one making sure the pay issue DOESN'T get corrected. Yes you pay them more than any other airline union in order to stay on the lowest pay rates until those senior F/O's that ginned up this monstrosity get their upgrade. Then it will be "Date of What???"

 

[Bringupthebird]

Worst case you get stuck at airways for the next 30 years, (if it's around that long) Either way it's better than being stuck at X regional for 30+ yrs.......

No, worst case is that you are at US for 18 months and then thrown out when the CBA is approved (passed with your vote, because you thought you saw a raise in it for you) and you spend 5-10 yrs awaiting recall, stewing in the thought that you should be senior to the guys who you are merging with. And then a little lawyer comes along and tells you "Yes, you can do that, and for $2mil I'll tell you how." and for that $2mil he lets you in on the secret - "do nothing". And while opportunities to make joint contract improvements come and go while you pretend to be fighting the valiant fight" eventually you get your wish and you leapfrog over the guys you merged with, simply because you had enough conspirators to pull it off.

So worst case is you are in an Angry F/O incubator and that something none of us needs.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Then it will be a home run for those that get on now......

Home run as in "I spent 4 days with this guy and the only time we spoke was during checklists."? Or as in, "I had to take a cab to the airport, because the crew left me at the hotel." Or maybe, "The captain knew I was trying to make my commute home and purposely (fill in the blank)". Or maybe it, "That SOB turned me in to the CP for (fill in the blank)"!

No, I see far more fouls than home runs in the future of US.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

None of those pilots have proffered recalls of the USAPA regime and therefore have plainly made their choice of who they will support. None of the 3rd list have stood up and said that west furloughees, fellow US pilots should not be placed below the 3rd list group, they are not new hires. The 3rd list has not stood up for anyone but the Cleary regime and there is no reason to give them special "conscientious objector" status in this un-civil war. When they demonstrate a willingness to take on the USAPA machine, then they will publicly affirm that they are cut from different cloth than the typical east slime.

What galls me the most is the USAPAians who are only willing to move on a combined contract AFTER they have secured their upgrade which is cemented by the No Bump No Flush. It is entirely consistent with their total lack of integrity, which I suppose is some consolation.

But simply having a majority to push an agenda that damages a significant portion of the pilot group will not go without some sort or judicial consequence. Again, the east entices the new hires with the shiny jets, but fails to tell them what awaits them once the veil comes down and both groups end up flying together. Why do you want to hide this from prospectiv e employees? Why is the east so committed to living off lies and half truths? Why di the mailings from Leonidas outlining the real truth of the impact of the Nic result in such an uproar, not over the truth of the content, but over boogiemen "stealing" public info?

The east has never acquired a taste for the truth, have they?

Wow !! Just freaking Wow is all I have to say about you Bird. It's obvious you don't know squat about what some third list members are trying to achieve with regards to the Union leadership. News Flash moron, it will take a majority vote to achieve any possible solution. Once again I point out to you the painfully obvious. You don't have a majority and the only place you will probably find help in that area is a group of underpaid pilots out East who are stuck at the bottom of LOA93 pay rates. So of course being the brain surgeon that you are you think it is a good idea to come on here lecture and insult that very same pilot group. Why don't you try asking AOL if they are in contact with any third list folks before you run your yap. The answer just might surprise you. I am sure that you won't though as the facts would mess with you rage induced reality. I am pretty sure AOL does not want to talk with you either.
Man I hope your geezer meter is about to run out.

 

[Bringupthebird]

You don't have a majority and the only place you will probably find help in that area is a group of underpaid pilots out East who are stuck at the bottom of LOA93 pay rates.

That phantom alliance was not reflected in any of the previous elections nor has any 3rd list contingent made a public statement condemning the actions and inactions of USAPA. Anonymous talk on an internet chat board is cheap. And the Wizard of Odds, Mike Cleary always reminded us to "Watch what they do, not what they say". So when the 3rd list actually gets around to doing something, let me know.

I am fairly critical of AOL as well. They picked a far too narrow target in the DFR and allowed USAPA too much room to move. Since there is no AOL office in CLT or PHL, I doubt they are getting any more tangible support than lip service from the group that's watching to see if the bread lands butter side up or not.

But lets get back to the core issues I have raised and which no one has refuted. Why won't any of the east stop high-fiving themselves for ten minutes and seriously consider the consequences of their actions and what real possibilities await the new hires as a direct result of those inrresponsible actions? You criticize me for changing the subject, yet no one will do anything other than condemn my posts as too negative and not supportive of a group that has given no visible support to the west.

The floor is yours sir.

 

[Bringupthebird]

News Flash xxxxx, it will take a majority vote to achieve any possible solution.

This just in: When was the last time the line pilots got to vote on anything of substance? You aren't going to be given a chance to vote until you vote on replacing USAPA in a representation election.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

I am not going to do the work for you Bird. Ask around and do some fact checking before you throw out your generalizations. Try checking some of the names involved with the move to recall Wild Bill down in CLT. Also you may remember a third list candidate who was running for office who later withdrew so as not to water down the potential votes for the west candidates. Why don't you look at the names of those who have contributed $$ to AOL and then compare it to an East seniority list. Here is a hint, We are at the bottom so it should be easy to verify. The third list contains a member who is involved with the union with regards to speaking with new hires. I suspect I know where the sympathies in their house are as her spouse is a furloughed Westie. As for me I am going to do something I don't usually do and share with you some of my voting record during my short time at Airways. I voted to keep ALPA (Better the devil you know than the one you Don't ) I voted for the West candidates when they were on a ballot. If there was no west candidate then I did my homework and voted for the most moderate East candidate I could find. Why did I vote this way ? Because I realize that only when the reps are in the same room and willing to talk as adults will anything start to get done. As for the ALPA vrs USAPA vote, well obviously I lost. I got over it and have accepted that we have to make do with what we have. Now the best play is to try and improve what we have from within and get rid of the hate filled nut jobs. Congratulations Bird you are the very first Westie to become a member of this elite group. Bad news for you is that this group ALSO enjoys an East majority. So there is something else you can get pissed about. These are all easily verifiable facts all you have to do is pick up a seniority list and pay attention. But we all know that you won't be doing any research, Will you? You alluded to it your self. It's just easier for you to hide behind the keyboard and throw out insults. How dare you come on here and say the third list is doing nothing. From where I sit it looks like this tiny group is trying to exact more change in this airline than your pompous old ass. Get off you high horse and STFU. All you continue to do is reflect poorly on the west pilot group. What is even more unbelievable is now you also have a beef with AOL. My God man you just hate everybody. Don't you ? I don't expect that any of these facts will get in the way of yet another hate filled diatribe about something from you. My audience is those who may actually want to gain some good information so they can make an informed decision. Unfortunately for them the likes of you and others ALWAYS turn these thread's into a childish pissing contest. I want to let them know that there are some good people here at Airways. ( Both East and West ) Unfortunately just like any airline, we also have our share of morons. Thanks for proving the point so well Bird.
You can have your floor back. I am done mopping it with you.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately LaGarbage man you are lumped in with a group of real jerks who signed up for BINDING arbitration and then decided to discard the decision when they saw the award. Sorry, that will always be associated with the East group. The Westies played by the rules, and now they are being treated poorly solely because they have fewer numbers, not because they did anything wrong at all. You may feel the same pain when the larger number of APA members and the Westies eventually gang up on you after the NIC award is implemented and discuss how to handle the smaller East group.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

There's alot to your story that doesn't add up. First, how many third listers were around to vote in the representation election? Did the stalking horse third lister run on a Nic or nothing platform? deleted

Perhaps there is some whisper campaign among the 3rd list, but my beef is with those who allow USAPA atrocities to go on without demanding that the pilots be allowed a vote on a TA, regardless of what list they are on. Whispering hasn't yielded much in 5 years except folks getting older and poorer (except of course those who have enjoyed the left seat grab).

For a while I held hope that there were moderates among the east. Then Hummel was elected and crowed about his unwavering support of the DOH cause. Then the east BPR allowed the MOU to be scuttled on the rocks with impunity. More money lost just to protect the fiefdom of the few. And where one might expect torches and pitchforks outside USAPA offices, there were crickets chirping. "We're giving you 100% of the benefits of the merger and acting as a firewall against the west" they claim, "so look the other way while we enrich ourselves".

LGAman, I honestly applaud you individual efforts and mindset, and if I have misjudged the motives of the east, then I apologize. But I can only make my observations based on the real evidence which is often only the votes that are cast and the behavior of those allowed to continue casting them on behalf of the pilots.

While you enjoy making this about me, why can't you address the real risks that come with joining this dyfunctional flash mob? Whether someone accepts a job here or not, doesn't affect me at all, except for my conscience. Many of the east's most active gloaters think that the addition of new hires is growth and that validates their heinous behavior. They want the new hires to believe that the Promised Land is the sole possession of the the east pilots provided to them by USAPA. My open-eyed assessment of what will very likely lay ahead is meant to balance that sunshine blower with hard reality, something the east is in short supply of.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Unfortunately LaGarbage man you are lumped in with a group of real jerks who signed up for BINDING arbitration and then decided to discard the decision when they saw the award. Sorry, that will always be associated with the East group. The Westies played by the rules, and now they are being treated poorly solely because they have fewer numbers, not because they did anything wrong at all. You may feel the same pain when the larger number of APA members and the Westies eventually gang up on you after the NIC award is implemented and discuss how to handle the smaller East group.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General I can assure you the third list knows exactly where we will fall with Nic or DOH and with any AMR merger SLI. We are the bottom of it all. So you can spare me the condescension.The point I am making is obvious to most. You said it yourself " Solely because they have fewer numbers " Well if you have a small( but ever increasing in size) group of 3rd list pilots who have no dog in the seniority fight and will probably vote with the West so they can get off of the worst pay rates at the airline. How do you think is the best way to communicate with that group ? Read through the entire thread General then come back and maybe offer something other than the usual FI dribble. I said it to Bird and I will say it to you as well. You are in no position to attempt to lecture any third list pilot on what we are a part of and what we must do to move forward. We know as well as anyone else here. We already have people from the small third list trying their best to enact change. It sure as hell isn't going to come from any of you FI heroes that's for sure. So for once try to resist your well know urge to stir the pot. Believe it or not this isn't about Delta. It's about finding away to enact change at Airways. ( Actually I believe the thread was about Contract information, but as usual it has been diverted ) I believe one of the first steps is to remove or marginalize those consumed by hate.The East has plenty of them and now it looks like the West has at least one.

 

[Bad-Andy]

LaGarbage,

Well said. In fact, I think that might be the most words I ever saw you string together at one time...

As for old grumpy, there's not much anyone can do to change his mind. We may as well simply realize that more than a few of the West guys cringe when he opens his mouth in the crew room let alone o the internet... If he wants to hate us 3rd-Listers also, so be it. Its no great loss to us.

An interesting thing about flying on the East is the atmosphere at work. For anyone thinking about coming to work here, listen to what weasel says -- he's right about the work environment. Nearly all the crews you fly with are wonderful. The level of professionalism is remarkable, especially considering everything they have been through in the last decade. I have had countless discussions with guys in which it is clear they disagree with me completely (I'm sure some would love to run over me in the parking lot...), yet the discussions always stay civil and respectful. Yeah, we have a few nut-jobs here, but the 10% rule applies everywhere... Heck, even the rep that they're trying to recall in CLT is a great guy to fly with and can have a rational, respectful discussion.

So, no, it isn't nearly as bleak as some would paint it here. Is there a lot of room for improvement? Absolutely. Are there some underlying issues? Without a doubt. But, anyone that makes the decision not to work here simply because of the East-West issue is "nucking futs." (I'm not commenting on other reasons, simply on that one.). I mean heck, if even I (a third-list, outspoken critic of the last regime and ardent supporter of Nic as th fastest means to a new contract) can get along with everyone (even MCDU, while on his j/s....), think how good it is for everyone not actively involved in any of this bickering...