US Air 190's

[DiverDriver]

USAir used to operate 146's on the mainline(ex-PSA birds), scope stopped them from operating at regionals. Economics made them unprofitable at the mainline due to high operating cost. Other 146 operators in the past were limited on how many seats they were allowed to install under contract colors.

The 146 was no real threat since it was such a turd, the 190's and similar are very different in cost and the fact that so many people seem to see it as an RJ.

As I said a while back, just because it is built by Embraier or Bombardier does not mean it is an RJ. Both Boeing and Douglas started by building regional planes, but that does not mean that an MD-11 or 747 is an RJ!

Wait, the discussion has been about number of seats up to this point. Not whether the plane was sexy or not. The 146 has been operating with 100 seats at AWAC for years. No one complained. We had 17 of them at one point. No one complained. Now one company may get 25 90 seaters (just 8 more hulls than AWAC has 146s) and now it's a threat? Sorry, I don't understand and I'm just trying to follow the logic. I'm not a smart man.

I'm not saying you are wrong about 190s should be at mainline. I just seem to see an inconsistency in the arguements up to this point about number of seats flown by a regional.

So, what should happen if AWAC does announce that we are getting 190s?

 

[sunchaser]

Please tell me how reigional pilots can keep 170-190's at mainline. I agree that they should be at mainline, and I have voted NO on everything I can to keep them from the reigionals. However, tell me and all the other reigional guys what we can do to fix mainline airlines scope problem. How did all the mainline guys build there time to get the mainline job? Now that is not good enough for reigional guys now... It is the way the industry is working out. Pilots have no control over it other than voting for better scope at mainline. I am glad AWA is steping up to the plate and making a stand. That is there flying and they need to protect it. But the guys that BLAME reigional guys just drop it. If mainline doesn't want reigionals to take the flying, stop giving it away....

 

[Cactus73]

The Awa union is not giving in on the E190? What the devil are those CRJ 900 I see tooling around in AmWest colors,I think that horse bolted along time ago.

Dont worry E190 they only hate you cause your good looking!

Our contract limits MESA and other small jet providers to 86 seats. We also have ratios in our contract of CRJ-900's to mainline aircraft. Our contract specifically states that all flying above 86 seats will be done by pilots on the America West Seniority List.

The AAA contract allows for up to 25 190's but only if they are already on order. I do not believe that AAA has any firm orders yet for the 190.

The newco management team wants to park up to 60 AAA airplanes and then replace them with 170/190's.

Although we have a huge seniority fight ahead of us, our pilot groups are lock step together to ensure that these end up being mainline airplanes.

Management can't just violate our contact at will to make this merger work. They knew about our contracts before the merger announcement and claim to want to protect our jobs. The bid they put out for these 25 aircraft has a lot of us pissed off which is not a good thing right now.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wait, the discussion has been about number of seats up to this point. Not whether the plane was sexy or not. The 146 has been operating with 100 seats at AWAC for years. No one complained. We had 17 of them at one point. No one complained. Now one company may get 25 90 seaters (just 8 more hulls than AWAC has 146s) and now it's a threat? Sorry, I don't understand and I'm just trying to follow the logic. I'm not a smart man.

I'm not saying you are wrong about 190s should be at mainline. I just seem to see an inconsistency in the arguements up to this point about number of seats flown by a regional.

So, what should happen if AWAC does announce that we are getting 190s?

Thats what I am talking about, the 146 was an expensive turd when it was new, No company in their right mind would try to operate 100+ of them, so it really was never a threat. That is why the few 146's running around continued for a few years, Most carriers had scope provisions against anything the size of the 146 though. AWAC was very much the rarity when it came to that sized airplane, and I am pretty sure you were limited to the number you were allowed to operate. Not being United, I cannot be sure but I think you were scoped out of any further 146's prior to their BK.

And no it is not the fault of the Regional pilot, Unfortunatly you are the ones that will suffer an entire career of crap wages because of the RJ. Commuters for crap wages was a stepping stone, Regionals for crap wages is now a career....especially if 190 sized airplanes operate as "RJ's"

 

[NDM]

Thats what I am talking about, the 146 was an expensive turd when it was new, No company in their right mind would try to operate 100+ of them, so it really was never a threat. That is why the few 146's running around continued for a few years, Most carriers had scope provisions against anything the size of the 146 though. AWAC was very much the rarity when it came to that sized airplane, and I am pretty sure you were limited to the number you were allowed to operate. Not being United, I cannot be sure but I think you were scoped out of any further 146's prior to their BK.

And no it is not the fault of the Regional pilot, Unfortunatly you are the ones that will suffer an entire career of crap wages because of the RJ. Commuters for crap wages was a stepping stone, Regionals for crap wages is now a career....especially if 190 sized airplanes operate as "RJ's"

The whole problem with what is now called "RJ's" began in the 1970's. "Mainline" management said to ALPA at what was then Allegheny (USAir to be) if you let us spin off these turboprops on a secondary certificate with lower rates we will be able to increase the DC-9 rates. Ironically this was the -10 series which would now be considered a "Regional Jet". However, this was the first scope relief given to let aircraft being flown off property which was previously considered BIG ENOUGH to be on the mainline level. Advance it a few years and now it wasn't the turboprop being spun off- it was "regional jets" and ALPA ONCE AGAIN took higher wages in exchange of letting "Mainline" contract out to Regional Airlines. Ask the USAirways guys if they remember the F27, or the BOAC 111, the little Fokker or the 146's. Those aircraft were not taken away from them, they adjusted their scope so those type of aircraft could be flown by contract carriers. They got that in exchange for parity + 1%. It was a darn good exchange at a time when the Majors were growing. Similar things happened at United with the 146's (which used to be owned by USAirways), American with Eagle, NW with Pinnacle, and Delta with Comair. The whole issue of "taking our jobs" never was once mentioned during the good times, but when the market downturned and people started losing their jobs it suddenly became an issue.

ALPA gave up the scope years ago in exchange for pay. Pay advances then, but forward thinking no. So, yes at RPA/CHQ/S5 we did not get the highest pay in the industry, BUT WE GOT THE BEST SCOPE IN THE "REGIONAL INDUSTRY". Why? Pay doesn't matter if you create your own competition.

Now, could ALPA have seen this coming? Maybe, maybe not. It is too late to play Monday Morning Quarterback. How do we fix this? It isn't regional pay- IT IS MAINLINE SCOPE!

I fly the 170. I wish it was at Mainline, but we at the regionals are now in the middle of a fight that Mainline fought 30 years ago with scope. So our wages are not what they should be and it is gong to take years for that to come around. However, I am darn glad we chose scope instead of wages to protect ourselves where I work. Now we can concentrate on pay with everyone on one list and contract the next time around. Now, we must also make sure the future brethern never give up the scope we fought to achieve.

As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest. This is why the CEO has put so much pressure to have a J4J agreement which allow more aircraft under our contract. Right or wrong that is what I see happenning and it is only a guess.

Anyway, safe flying all.

Dan

 

[onthestreet]

As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest.

I hate to burst any bubbles, but no one but Jetblue is going to taking deliveries of any 190's until two years from Oct. Give EMB a call and ask em. It's part of the deak JB struck with EMB.

 

[NDM]

I hear what you are saying, but AW contract saying "existing orders" not deliveries.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Advance it a few years and now it wasn't the turboprop being spun off- it was "regional jets" and ALPA ONCE AGAIN took higher wages in exchange of letting "Mainline" contract out to Regional Airlines. Ask the USAirways guys if they remember the F27, or the BOAC 111, the little Fokker or the 146's. Those aircraft were not taken away from them, they adjusted their scope so those type of aircraft could be flown by contract carriers. They got that in exchange for parity + 1%. It was a darn good exchange at a time when the Majors were growing.

A few corrections:

None of the airplanes you listed ever flew at a regional under USAirs name. The Bac 111 (BOAC was an airline in England) flew with mainline until the 737's came along and retired it, the F27 had a brief run with mainline in the early 70's, again retired without ever flying regional, the 146's were picked up in the PSA merger, retired pretty quick, not flown at the regionals, the f-28 never flew at the regionals, parked shortly after the Piedmont merger, The f-100 stayed in service until the RJ's replaced it after 9-11.

Parity + 1% was opposed by ALPA. They never wanted it, was forced upon them by Wolf in 99 and 2000. During that time Wolf threatened to put the RJ on the mainline if ALPA would not allow him to put them at MESA......ALPA said fine, lets work up a payscale and bring them on.......Wolf did not want that and dropped the threat. Why? Because he knew that Mesa would fly those 70 RJ's for dirt bag wages.

Allegheny did start the problem though in the 70's (With Eastern Airlines)

The only true way to fix the problem is to disallow any flying under another airlines name, and mainline scope alone can no longer do that....it is too far gone, if it is to ever be corrected, both Mainline and Regional pilots will have to work together and refuse to accept anymore "larger" RJ's and refuse to accept substandard wages for the airplanes.

The only way to really fix the problem is to shut down the entire country until everyone who flies a particular paintjob is on one list.......and that will never happen since there are too many pilots willing to work for peanuts.

 

[sleddriver77]

As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest.

I believe RAH has actually HAD both firm orders and options for the 190 for some time now... If the airplanes were not needed by RAH when the slot rolled around, the slot could surely be sold to SOMEBODY. (JetBlue?)

 

[Dodge]

As far as NWA and the Avro go....I think there were plans on getting even more of the Avro's but the NWA pilots quickly and rightly went on strike and stopped the bleeding at just 36 aircraft limited to 69 seats. But they are really comfortable 69 seats, especially the first 16 of them.

 

[OldManPilot]

AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

 

[OldManPilot]

AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

That my friends is where the anger should be pointed....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

That my friends is where the anger should be pointed....

My how times have changed, about 4 years ago I was getting blasted by regional guys about my views on the RJ and how they should not be allowed to go to the regionals.............4 years later, after the regional guys are getting hosed and outsourced to other regional guys just like the mainlines were then .........somehow the mainliners are still the bad guys!

USAir 's MEC did try to keep the RJ in check, however they were cussed at by every U express carrier pilot and mgmt. and U was losing a dumptruck load of money every quarter while trying to keep pilots on the property and hold off the outsourcing wave.

U MEC would have flown the RJ for F-28 rates no problem......even still had the scale in the contract at the time, problem is that Mesa and the rest were willing to fly the things for 40k a year for the left seat, so the MEC was fighting a losing battle, especially considering how many RJ's DAL, AA, and United MEC's were allowing to go to the lowest bidder. The result was inevitable.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

He was talking about the Nord program. After the Mohawk merger the Nords were ultimately outsourced.

And as for Oldmanpilot... what he's REALLY saying is "If you dont want us to HAVE the E190, don't outsourcing it. Otherwise shut up and let me enjoy my big shiny airplane!"

 

[Crzipilot]

Kerosene Snorter,

It's kinds useless, you see, nobody really wants to see the past for what it is....and loves to twist things in their favor. As far as I know, your rehash is right on target. And your solution to the whole country being stopped, well that is the solution but we have to get a union first before we can get the solution done. Speaking of unions, I am actually ashamed that about 80% of the new kids I fly with have very little knowledge of the aviation history and where we are today. I have YET, YET to have an f/o under 30 be able to tell me who Frank Lorenzo is. they look at me with a blank stare, and are like...uhmmm...who's he?? Capt. or FO??? help us