US Air 190's
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NO... Well not yet, but I still think mainline should fly them. I think things might change here soon after the dust sets with AW/US merger.
Mgmt wants some type of LOA from the RP pilot group(CHQ master list). So when or if it falls to the regional group they have a jump on the E190 at least.
I'm not aware of a deadline for awarding the 25 E190's.
Mgmt wants some type of LOA from the RP pilot group(CHQ master list). So when or if it falls to the regional group they have a jump on the E190 at least.
I'm not aware of a deadline for awarding the 25 E190's.
Superpilot92
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Good keep them away from the regionals the 170 has done enough damage.iflyhigh said:
Wheres the van?
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The Awa union is not giving in on the E190? What the devil are those CRJ 900 I see tooling around in AmWest colors,I think that horse bolted along time ago.
Dont worry E190 they only hate you cause your good looking!
Dont worry E190 they only hate you cause your good looking!
DiverDriver
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So what about AWACs 17 146s? (ok, we don't have that many anymore as they are being retired) We've been flying 100 seaters for how long? No one cried about it so far. Are we not a regional? Is anyone a regional anymore?
KeroseneSnorter
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If the 190's end up at regionals, ALL of you, and I do mean ALL of you, have advanced as far as you will ever go in your careers pay wise. The 190 is in effect a 737-200. Once something of that size is flying for contract carriers at RJ rates there will not be any mainlines left. Even somebody like SWA would eventually end up at RJ rates.
Can you imagine the chaos caused by 10 different contract carriers all flying mainline sized aircraft bidding and underbidding each other for routes?
Not pretty. But exactly what managment wants to finish off "Airline Pilot" as a good paying career. Most bus drivers in big cities already make more than Mr. RJ Pilot.
Can you imagine the chaos caused by 10 different contract carriers all flying mainline sized aircraft bidding and underbidding each other for routes?
Not pretty. But exactly what managment wants to finish off "Airline Pilot" as a good paying career. Most bus drivers in big cities already make more than Mr. RJ Pilot.
KeroseneSnorter
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The 146 is a 4 engine expensive turd compared to the new generation of "RJ" coming out. Additionally, are you guys not limited to 76 or so seats on that thing?DiverDriver said:
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The Awa union is not giving in on the E190? What the devil are those CRJ 900 I see tooling around in AmWest colors,I think that horse bolted along time ago.
I believe that the 900s deal happened before the latest AWA contract.
I believe that the 900s deal happened before the latest AWA contract.
AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.
DiverDriver
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KeroseneSnorter said:
Nope. No limits. Which is why I ask the question why no one has complained so far about it at a "regional" airline. Sure, the 146 is around to do ASE but it's not the only thing it has done. Yes, we call it the 4 engine road block but the discussion about how many seats an aircraft has to determine whether it should be at mainline or not seems to have forgotten about these aircraft. So... should they have been at UAL all along? If so, why did no one protest? If AWAC gets 190s will we all be the next "bottom feeder" of the industry?
KeroseneSnorter
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USAir used to operate 146's on the mainline(ex-PSA birds), scope stopped them from operating at regionals. Economics made them unprofitable at the mainline due to high operating cost. Other 146 operators in the past were limited on how many seats they were allowed to install under contract colors.DiverDriver said:
The 146 was no real threat since it was such a turd, the 190's and similar are very different in cost and the fact that so many people seem to see it as an RJ.
As I said a while back, just because it is built by Embraier or Bombardier does not mean it is an RJ. Both Boeing and Douglas started by building regional planes, but that does not mean that an MD-11 or 747 is an RJ!
DiverDriver
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Wait, the discussion has been about number of seats up to this point. Not whether the plane was sexy or not. The 146 has been operating with 100 seats at AWAC for years. No one complained. We had 17 of them at one point. No one complained. Now one company may get 25 90 seaters (just 8 more hulls than AWAC has 146s) and now it's a threat? Sorry, I don't understand and I'm just trying to follow the logic. I'm not a smart man.KeroseneSnorter said:
I'm not saying you are wrong about 190s should be at mainline. I just seem to see an inconsistency in the arguements up to this point about number of seats flown by a regional.
So, what should happen if AWAC does announce that we are getting 190s?
Please tell me how reigional pilots can keep 170-190's at mainline. I agree that they should be at mainline, and I have voted NO on everything I can to keep them from the reigionals. However, tell me and all the other reigional guys what we can do to fix mainline airlines scope problem. How did all the mainline guys build there time to get the mainline job? Now that is not good enough for reigional guys now... It is the way the industry is working out. Pilots have no control over it other than voting for better scope at mainline. I am glad AWA is steping up to the plate and making a stand. That is there flying and they need to protect it. But the guys that BLAME reigional guys just drop it. If mainline doesn't want reigionals to take the flying, stop giving it away....
Our contract limits MESA and other small jet providers to 86 seats. We also have ratios in our contract of CRJ-900's to mainline aircraft. Our contract specifically states that all flying above 86 seats will be done by pilots on the America West Seniority List.Wheres the van? said:
The AAA contract allows for up to 25 190's but only if they are already on order. I do not believe that AAA has any firm orders yet for the 190.
The newco management team wants to park up to 60 AAA airplanes and then replace them with 170/190's.
Although we have a huge seniority fight ahead of us, our pilot groups are lock step together to ensure that these end up being mainline airplanes.
Management can't just violate our contact at will to make this merger work. They knew about our contracts before the merger announcement and claim to want to protect our jobs. The bid they put out for these 25 aircraft has a lot of us pissed off which is not a good thing right now.
KeroseneSnorter
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Thats what I am talking about, the 146 was an expensive turd when it was new, No company in their right mind would try to operate 100+ of them, so it really was never a threat. That is why the few 146's running around continued for a few years, Most carriers had scope provisions against anything the size of the 146 though. AWAC was very much the rarity when it came to that sized airplane, and I am pretty sure you were limited to the number you were allowed to operate. Not being United, I cannot be sure but I think you were scoped out of any further 146's prior to their BK.DiverDriver said:
And no it is not the fault of the Regional pilot, Unfortunatly you are the ones that will suffer an entire career of crap wages because of the RJ. Commuters for crap wages was a stepping stone, Regionals for crap wages is now a career....especially if 190 sized airplanes operate as "RJ's"
The whole problem with what is now called "RJ's" began in the 1970's. "Mainline" management said to ALPA at what was then Allegheny (USAir to be) if you let us spin off these turboprops on a secondary certificate with lower rates we will be able to increase the DC-9 rates. Ironically this was the -10 series which would now be considered a "Regional Jet". However, this was the first scope relief given to let aircraft being flown off property which was previously considered BIG ENOUGH to be on the mainline level. Advance it a few years and now it wasn't the turboprop being spun off- it was "regional jets" and ALPA ONCE AGAIN took higher wages in exchange of letting "Mainline" contract out to Regional Airlines. Ask the USAirways guys if they remember the F27, or the BOAC 111, the little Fokker or the 146's. Those aircraft were not taken away from them, they adjusted their scope so those type of aircraft could be flown by contract carriers. They got that in exchange for parity + 1%. It was a darn good exchange at a time when the Majors were growing. Similar things happened at United with the 146's (which used to be owned by USAirways), American with Eagle, NW with Pinnacle, and Delta with Comair. The whole issue of "taking our jobs" never was once mentioned during the good times, but when the market downturned and people started losing their jobs it suddenly became an issue.KeroseneSnorter said:
ALPA gave up the scope years ago in exchange for pay. Pay advances then, but forward thinking no. So, yes at RPA/CHQ/S5 we did not get the highest pay in the industry, BUT WE GOT THE BEST SCOPE IN THE "REGIONAL INDUSTRY". Why? Pay doesn't matter if you create your own competition.
Now, could ALPA have seen this coming? Maybe, maybe not. It is too late to play Monday Morning Quarterback. How do we fix this? It isn't regional pay- IT IS MAINLINE SCOPE!
I fly the 170. I wish it was at Mainline, but we at the regionals are now in the middle of a fight that Mainline fought 30 years ago with scope. So our wages are not what they should be and it is gong to take years for that to come around. However, I am darn glad we chose scope instead of wages to protect ourselves where I work. Now we can concentrate on pay with everyone on one list and contract the next time around. Now, we must also make sure the future brethern never give up the scope we fought to achieve.
As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest. This is why the CEO has put so much pressure to have a J4J agreement which allow more aircraft under our contract. Right or wrong that is what I see happenning and it is only a guess.
Anyway, safe flying all.
Dan