Take it from a guy who has been hand flying lear 20 series aircraft at altitudes up to and including FL450 for many years. An engine flame-out will not cause a coffin corner. I have had the pleasure of experincing many flame outs my self and never had a problem with handiling or speed control. I know these guys probably did'nt have a lot of time in the 390-450 flight levels. But they were professional aviators and I don't think it is right for us to try to explain what really happened to these guys. I also know there has been some discussion about this crews total time and experience. I have always been very outspoken against the hiring practices of regional carriers. However I have learned not to judge a pilot just by hours alone. The captain of this flight was probably a fine aviator and we should all sit back and wait for the investigation to unfold.
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Update on Pinnacle CRJ crash
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It's not speculation.....about coffin corner, that is. It is "defined" as an altitude where Mmo and Stall speed are very close together. At that altitude, any substantial acceleration puts you into an overspeed condition and any substantial slowing puts you into a stall buffet. Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't position. I can't imagine that FL 410 at ISA (or near there) in an RJ would be near it's "coffin corner", but I am not familiar with any of the aircraft limitations or performance numbers. If I am incorrect about the RJ and its altitude capabilities, I wouldn't mind getting some accurate info on it.
NO coffin corner
The CRJ doesn't have the power to reach MMO in level flight at 410, not even close, even really light. Let alone it was flight tested well above the listed MMO. Do you really think that the indicated red line is an absolute airspeed for airliners? I don't think the FAA would certify such an aircraft for passenger use.
The CRJ doesn't have the power to reach MMO in level flight at 410, not even close, even really light. Let alone it was flight tested well above the listed MMO. Do you really think that the indicated red line is an absolute airspeed for airliners? I don't think the FAA would certify such an aircraft for passenger use.
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I didn't say Mmo was an absolute airspeed. Certainly transport category aircraft can go above Mmo before they reach a overspeed buffet or mach tuck condition. Being as light as they were, they obviously were not in danger of a low-speed buffet, so they weren't in the coffin corner, no matter how you want to define it. I guess that is what I was trying to say. No offense.
bvt1151
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"JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — A plane that plunged to a fatal crash after both of its jet engines failed had aborted a scheduled takeoff earlier in the day because of an apparent problem with a mechanical system that distributes engine heat throughout the plane...
...Throughout Friday, nearby residents came with awe to scene, marveling at how the plane had managed to miss houses to its left, right and rear. Across the street was an untouched apartment complex.
"Ooh boy, it's lucky it didn't hit the houses. They'll be thanking their God," said neighbor Kathryn Hajaved, 72, viewing the damage in daylight for the first time."
This statement bothers me. Firstly, when airplanes lose engines, they still fly...they don't plunge. Secondly, the aircraft did not miraculously miss the houses, the pilots did. I'd speculate after the first engine failure they fired up the APU which would have given them the necessary power to have all of their lights on, along with the lights on the ground allowing the two to see the surrounding area. I'm a religious person, and I understand its right to thank God nobody on the ground was hurt, but its also right to thank the pilots for missing the houses.
...Throughout Friday, nearby residents came with awe to scene, marveling at how the plane had managed to miss houses to its left, right and rear. Across the street was an untouched apartment complex.
"Ooh boy, it's lucky it didn't hit the houses. They'll be thanking their God," said neighbor Kathryn Hajaved, 72, viewing the damage in daylight for the first time."
This statement bothers me. Firstly, when airplanes lose engines, they still fly...they don't plunge. Secondly, the aircraft did not miraculously miss the houses, the pilots did. I'd speculate after the first engine failure they fired up the APU which would have given them the necessary power to have all of their lights on, along with the lights on the ground allowing the two to see the surrounding area. I'm a religious person, and I understand its right to thank God nobody on the ground was hurt, but its also right to thank the pilots for missing the houses.
LJDRVR
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Enough!
You speculating "ninnies" need to read leardrivrs post again. If you think that a CRJ, or any swept-wing jet designed after 1965 has that narrow of an aerodynamic "throat" at cruise, you're smoking crack. A C-model U-2 or a standard wing Lear 23 (Neither of which fly anymore) maybe, but a CRJ?
How about waiting for the NTSB to come out with their final report. In the mean time, let's not dishonor the memory of two fine aviators by stupid, mis-informed, junior high gossip.
You speculating "ninnies" need to read leardrivrs post again. If you think that a CRJ, or any swept-wing jet designed after 1965 has that narrow of an aerodynamic "throat" at cruise, you're smoking crack. A C-model U-2 or a standard wing Lear 23 (Neither of which fly anymore) maybe, but a CRJ?
How about waiting for the NTSB to come out with their final report. In the mean time, let's not dishonor the memory of two fine aviators by stupid, mis-informed, junior high gossip.
Ailerongirl
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Update...
Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Bureau released new details in Thursday night's crash of a Northwest Airlink jet that was heading to the Twin Cities.
The NTSB now says that both engines of the 50-seat CRJ failed at the same time while the plane was cruising at an altitude of 41,000 feet. Earlier reports showed the two engines failed at different times.
Investigators say the fact that both engines failed at the same time could indicate a major power failure aboard the plane. Investigators say the pilots glided for nearly 100-miles without power before crashing into a neighborhood in Jefferson City, Missouri. No one on the ground was injured.
5 EYEWITNESS NEWS has also learned that the same jet was taking off from Little Rock, Arkansas earlier Thursday when it had to abort. We now know that flight was headed to the Twin Cities with 40-passengers aboard. Those passengers were placed on another aircraft.
The pilots were flying the jet to the Twin Cities Thursday night, where it would have gone back into service for flights out of Minnesota. The pilot and co-pilot were killed in the crash. The investigation into what caused the crash continues.
The vice-president of Pinnacle Airlines, which operates the jet for Northwest Airlink says he is confident in the safety of the company's fleet. The smaller commuter jets are being used more and more by the airlines because they are more efficient.
Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Bureau released new details in Thursday night's crash of a Northwest Airlink jet that was heading to the Twin Cities.
The NTSB now says that both engines of the 50-seat CRJ failed at the same time while the plane was cruising at an altitude of 41,000 feet. Earlier reports showed the two engines failed at different times.
Investigators say the fact that both engines failed at the same time could indicate a major power failure aboard the plane. Investigators say the pilots glided for nearly 100-miles without power before crashing into a neighborhood in Jefferson City, Missouri. No one on the ground was injured.
5 EYEWITNESS NEWS has also learned that the same jet was taking off from Little Rock, Arkansas earlier Thursday when it had to abort. We now know that flight was headed to the Twin Cities with 40-passengers aboard. Those passengers were placed on another aircraft.
The pilots were flying the jet to the Twin Cities Thursday night, where it would have gone back into service for flights out of Minnesota. The pilot and co-pilot were killed in the crash. The investigation into what caused the crash continues.
The vice-president of Pinnacle Airlines, which operates the jet for Northwest Airlink says he is confident in the safety of the company's fleet. The smaller commuter jets are being used more and more by the airlines because they are more efficient.
Mel Sharples
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Oh, sweet Jesus...Ailerongirl said:
Those poor, poor gentlemen. I know it is not official, but the thought of a dual flameout at 41,000 and then gliding all the way down makes me sick.
People always say after incidents like this, "They died doing what they loved." I am NOT trying to be funny, believe me, but do you think they "loved" gliding to earth with no power from 41,000 feet? Ugh. I can't imagine the hell they must have went through.
Let me just say, I'm sure they did all they could to get that thing on the ground safely.
Why was it those two and not any of us? We will never know.
My heart aches for their co-workers, family, and friends.....
.
wood pecker
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Last month we were in the sim for a loft and we asked if we could throw in a 2 eng failure for learning purposes. Of course the answer was no there is not enough time with all the standard bs. I guess it is more critical that we continue doing the same stale loft routine instead of actually learning something that could potentially save our lives + pax. After all according to our instructor we are not likely to have a dual failure. How about some more focus on real emergencies instead of the DC ESS Bus failure which I have had 3 lofts in a row. This is not to be critical of my training dept b/c I truly believe they are the best and they have to do what they are told. I just wonder if I would be proud of my performance in a real emergency when the only practice I get is reciting IAI instead of doing them in a sim more frequently. I hope I will never know b/c I sure the hell don't want every body second guessing my actions, my wife already does that.
flyingforfood
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flyingforfood
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Dual Flameout
Our company experienced a dual flameout of both engines at FL410 in one of our beechjet 400's while flying over the Gulf of Mexico. They were issued a descent, reduced power and lost both engines. The beechjet does not have a fuel heater, so it requires the fuel additive PRIST to prevent fuel icing at altitude. It has been determined that the PRIST container on the fuel truck was empty when the jet was topped off with fuel.
The crew was able to relight one engine at 13,000 and land safely at Sarasota, Florida. All 7 pax and 2 crew were uninjured.
I don't want to speculate on this accident, but surprising to me, a dual flameout is not beyond possible. I also thought that scenerio was next to impossible, just goes to show how little I know.
Where was the flight attendant on this flight? It makes me wonder if this was a maintenance repo leg with only the required crew onboard.
GOD rest their souls.
Our company experienced a dual flameout of both engines at FL410 in one of our beechjet 400's while flying over the Gulf of Mexico. They were issued a descent, reduced power and lost both engines. The beechjet does not have a fuel heater, so it requires the fuel additive PRIST to prevent fuel icing at altitude. It has been determined that the PRIST container on the fuel truck was empty when the jet was topped off with fuel.
The crew was able to relight one engine at 13,000 and land safely at Sarasota, Florida. All 7 pax and 2 crew were uninjured.
I don't want to speculate on this accident, but surprising to me, a dual flameout is not beyond possible. I also thought that scenerio was next to impossible, just goes to show how little I know.
Where was the flight attendant on this flight? It makes me wonder if this was a maintenance repo leg with only the required crew onboard.
GOD rest their souls.
Didn't a Challenger force land in a field in the middle of the night a few years ago? Lost both engines at altitude and glided in after they couldn't get them restarted. I think it was excess water in the fuel system after refueling and the ice caused a dual engine flameout. I haven't done the 6-weeks in SLC yet so, does the CRJ have a different fuel system that would prevent this from happening? Just wondering.
Praying for the families.
Praying for the families.
Accident Description Status: Final [legenda]
Date: 20 MAR 1994
Time: 00:36 CST
Type: Canadair CL-601-3A Challenger
Operator: Crystal Aviation
Registration: N88HA
Msn / C/n: 5072
Crew: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 0 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Bassett-Rock, NE (USA)
Departure airport: Burlington International Airport, VT (BTV)
Destination airport: Long Beach Municipal Airport, CA (LGB)
Narrative:
Both engines lost power at FL410; forced landing in a field, striking an irrigation structure and trees. Improper refueling by FBO personnel at Lawrence, MA caused the Challenger to depart with water contaminted fuel.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The pilot in command's inadequate planning/decision making and inadequate preflight inspection after receiving a load of contaminated fuel. Related factors are the contaminated fuel, improper refueling by FBO personnel, and the dark night light conditions."
Source: (also check out sources used for every accident)
NTSB
[disclaimer]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 1996-2004 Aviation Safety Network
Date: 20 MAR 1994
Time: 00:36 CST
Type: Canadair CL-601-3A Challenger
Operator: Crystal Aviation
Registration: N88HA
Msn / C/n: 5072
Crew: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 0 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Bassett-Rock, NE (USA)
Departure airport: Burlington International Airport, VT (BTV)
Destination airport: Long Beach Municipal Airport, CA (LGB)
Narrative:
Both engines lost power at FL410; forced landing in a field, striking an irrigation structure and trees. Improper refueling by FBO personnel at Lawrence, MA caused the Challenger to depart with water contaminted fuel.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The pilot in command's inadequate planning/decision making and inadequate preflight inspection after receiving a load of contaminated fuel. Related factors are the contaminated fuel, improper refueling by FBO personnel, and the dark night light conditions."
Source: (also check out sources used for every accident)
NTSB
[disclaimer]
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Copyright © 1996-2004 Aviation Safety Network
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