Update on Pinnacle CRJ crash

[Thedude]

WTF??? I think the blame here falls solely on the FBO personell who didn't sump the fuel truck. I've never even seen a procedure to sump the tanks on any jet/turboprop I've ever flown.

You haven't been around very much then. Most companies (airlines) do have a procedure for the filters on the trucks in the FBO. Check your re-fueling manual or the like and it should be there, probably burried. I once worked for a 135 operator that required, per the FAA approved manual, that the tanks be sumped on all of our jets/t-prps prior to flight. With that being said, sumping light a/c (anything under 30,000 lbs) is primarly meant for those that don't fly on a regular basis. Ie. every day, every other day, three time a day. Turbine engines will burn the water mixed in with jet fuel....just not large amounts of it. The primary concern is icing in the lines, filters and maybe in the fuel controller.

 

[T-Gates]

You haven't been around very much then. Most companies (airlines) do have a procedure for the filters on the trucks in the FBO. Check your re-fueling manual or the like and it should be there, probably burried. I once worked for a 135 operator that required, per the FAA approved manual, that the tanks be sumped on all of our jets/t-prps prior to flight. With that being said, sumping light a/c (anything under 30,000 lbs) is primarly meant for those that don't fly on a regular basis. Ie. every day, every other day, three time a day. Turbine engines will burn the water mixed in with jet fuel....just not large amounts of it. The primary concern is icing in the lines, filters and maybe in the fuel controller.

Yeah, the key to my statement was "anything I've flown". Also every place I have worked I have yet to see a procedure to sump the tanks. It just took my by suprise to see that statement. And to be completely honest, sumping the tanks when I go out to the airplane every night doesn't even cross my mind.

But I'd be curious to see if we really do have a procedure for it, but like you said, it may be buried under something else.

 

[Chairman]

always sucks... but it's part of the business unfortunatly. Everyone be safe out there.

Part of the business are you kidding me. This doesn't happen every day and in just not something we accept as part of the business. More people are killed every day driving there car and when this happens it is a true loss but nothing that is ever just part of the business.

CHAIRMAN

 

[B190Captain]

My deepest sympathies to all families and friends that have felt this tragic loss.

Jesse was a good man and a skilled competent pilot. My prayers go to his family in this time of mourning.

Rest In Peace Brotha!!

 

[ASADFW7]

I respect the wishes of pilots requesting that we not arm chair quarterback, what happened However, we are free to ask questions. Heck, when I get into the CRJ Tuesday, if I find something out that can save my life or anyone else's life, I have as we all do the right to ask questions. We can look into what happened, and see the situation with our own minds. We may not have the correct idea of what it was like to have a double engine failure, when it happens in the simulator we all go through the motions, continous ignition on... However, looking inside a real situation with the ultimate result, straightens the view point, takes the slack out of the line, cuts the delay to zero. I am in tune with what the situation is.

Information needs to travel quickly to keep any event from repeating itself.

 

[CatYaaak]

Even a cold day at 41,000 there would indeed be a relatively small spread between green line (1.27Vs) and MMO but I don't see how that would be a problem in this case, it seemed like it helped them have more time to troubleshoot the problems.

It was the NTSB investigator that actually stated the airplane went into an aerodynamic stall, but this does not make much sense to me. QUOTE]

It does seem strange that it was so specific. Perhaps they gleaned something already from the CVR and FDR, or maybe the NTSB guy is just flat out wrong. Whatever, they'll have access to things nobody here does, like high-level turb, ISA variations that night, on autopilot or hand flying, ATC tapes, etc. etc. ad infinitum. All we can do is wait.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Well, my thinking regarding the stall thing is that when both engines flamed out, there was probably a second of WTFO before the stick shaker/pusher activated and then disconnected the auto pilot. Maybe the NTSB guy mistook the shaker/pusher for an actual stall. WTFK


AF

 

[CatYaaak]

Well, my thinking regarding the stall thing is that when both engines flamed out, there was probably a second of WTFO before the stick shaker/pusher activated and then disconnected the auto pilot. Maybe the NTSB guy mistook the shaker/pusher for an actual stall. WTFK


AF

Time, and the investigation will tell if the NTSB guy was accurate in his statement and if so, what caused the a/c to be in that condition. He could also be completely off base.

As an aside, one thing I DO know for sure though, and that's if I had a dual-engine flame-out there would definitely be a WTFO Moment for me.

 

[dondk]

Information needs to travel quickly to keep any event from repeating itself.

I agree with your statement, and I am slightly offended by my union's/company's position of "don't ask us,we will not tell you".

IF this was in some way pilot induced, a alert bulletin will be in my v-file by the end of the week. For me, that will be the key factor in this tragedy.

Having been at 410 in this equipment, your either riding the green line OR there is not much between you and the green line. I don't personally see how a flameout, then the ADG dropping and the A/P disconnecting puts the a/c into "stall", although if it did happen.. they did recover so what is the point to the statement?

 

[blott]

They could have stalled, rolled it inverted, taken a few turns in a spin , split-S, done a few aileron rolls, and maybe even pull off a loop or two- Bob Hover style...but if they told atc they had the field in sight, and landed two miles short, in between a bunch of houses-not hitting any of them, it sounds to me like they had the ac in control...and did one he11 of a job.

Blue skies....

B

 

[leardrivr]

I have had the pleasure of experincing many flame outs my self and never had a problem with handiling or speed control./QUOTE]




Reeeaaalllyyyy??? How many is many? You must be pretty unlucky.

Oh about a dozen or more. We have a fleet of 11 lear 20 series airplanes with G.E. CJ-610's. We also have our own engine shop! see were im going with this. Ask any freight lear pilot running old run out straight turbo-jet engines for a freight outfit and you will find flame-outs are fairly common. Usualy it turns out to be a bad fcu or some fod damage.

 

[acaTerry]

To answer the earlier question about the RAT:
It's been a while, and I'm in new equip, but if I remember right...
Dual flameout at FL410 would lead to an instance of no hydraulics=no flight controls. The ADG (RAT) auto deploys, but only powers pump 3B which gives full primary controls. But at FL410, the effective amperage of the ADG has been in question since production. That's why there are those crazy ADG limitations (at least I'm told so). Additionally, manual reversion of flight controls at FL410, if large enough, MAY have an aerodynamic consequence on aerodynamic stall. Never got that much out of a CRJ, but at least something to at least consider. So they may have been without controls for a short time. By FL300, the ECU will allow a start of the APU, but an APU assisted start is not possible until 13,000 feet. I would guess that they were trying to get that 300 kts for a windmill start. As any CRJ pilot knows, there is also a possibility for sensory overload b/c of the way many of the EICAS warnings will continue to annoy you with delayed annunciations when you are already busy.
I'm not playing investigator here. I am just of the opinion that these poor guys had one of the very worst things that can happen at the worst time. Their dead, so it is also likely that there will be people (pardon my crudeness) "pi$$ing on their graves" with speculations and "what I would have done's". Whatever happened will come out eventually, but either way I think they did a he11 of a job by preserving life on the impact site and I hope to God that everyone will have the class and decency to hold off on silly arguments or anything like that. Lets all be safe out there and keep these guys in our prayers (anti-religious folks lay off-we have 2 dead pilots here!).

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Sick airplanes and performance limits, a few thoughts....

Probably just for the heck of it. The airplane won't even reach that altitude with pax on board, just not enough thrust. So when we do the ocassional empty flight, a lot of guys have gone up there just to say they have - nothing wrong with it as long as you're inside the "envelope" - I've had Lears up at 51,0 all day long as well as this airplane up at 41,0 twice.

I hate to speculate or make comments about what could have happened. However, I would like to share a thought. In general, I would think if you had to fly an MX ferry that one would not want to push the envelope at all.

If I had an A/C with a bleed, pack, pressurization problem or anything related to those systems, I would not take it to FL410 for the heck of it (I'm not saying that's what the crew did.). I would probably use FL 250 as a max parameter, as if one pack were inop.

Maybe the company plans a high altitiude flight to save gas, but with a sick air plane, I woud fly lower.

I have had the opportunity to fly some MD80s out of heavy MX. It is interesting putting the plane through it's paces and checking all the systems, but it is never a joyride.

This has been a bad week for A/Cs and their crews. Let's fly safe!

 

[efiscompmon]

Maybe the company plans a high altitiude flight to save gas

yeah. maybe. just like maybe D.W. is the bloated son of the devil...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

"Green line" is not a low-speed cue in cruise flight. It is an angle of attack indication superimposed over the speed tape that gives you a reference while performing a flaps 45 approach. Bombardier says that it indicates a speed. That is indirectly true. If you are flying at exactly 1.27 Vs0 at MLW. on a flap 45 approach, that AOA green line will be centered over the speed display, indicating you are on the correct AOA for a MLW landing. If you are flying at an AOA greater than that, it will appear above the speed you are flying. Speed up, and your AOA will decrease, and the green line will move toward the center of the speed tape.

The Super-advanced Collins equipment (tounge in cheek) does not continuously update the 1.27 Vs0 speed based on aircraft weight. Notice how it bounces around in turbulence, even at cruise levels? That is because your angle of attack is changing in turbulent conditions. If it appears at cruise (as it does in both, more so in the -200), it simply indicates that you are flying somewhere close to the 1.27 Vs0 AOA.

Yes, some have come to equate a critical speed with the "green line". But, if your gear isn't down, and flaps 45, it has no real meaning. In Europe the "green line" isn't an installed option. They know that the low-speed cue is the critical information during flight. The low-speed barber pole is the area to avoid.

The CRJ is not capable of operating in a true "coffin corner". It is possible though, that turbulence, or a bleed surge may have disrupted the airflow enough that the engines could not recover from the ensuing compressor stall(s). RIP guys.

 

[enigma]

training

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Or, what kind of high altitude specific training does any airline provide for it's pilots?

I've only received airline provided, high altitude/high speed training as the result of one of my fellow pilots managing to get into a true high altitude stall. (about five years ago, search the ntsb if you need details.) Other than that, my altitude/speed training came from Simu-flite/FlightSafety during my corporate pilot training. Unfortunately (for it's implications) the level of detail in training I received in the corporate side, exceeds the detail I've received from any airline. Spirit, my current employer, has some excellent instructors and the sim training is first rate. GS is good but just too rushed to enable the instructors to give a lot of detail. Simuflite gave me a specific high/fast training module that included a trip to the altitude chamber. Personally, I don't think that anyone should ever get over FL390 without having been specifically trained in high/fast ops. Their just isn't that much margin/cushion when things go wrong up there.

I hope that they guys at Pinnacle didn't find themselves at an altitude that put them over their heads when the do-do hit the fan. If so, blame the company, not the pilots.

enigma

 

[Lear70]

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Very little. There's not enough time during the training to really cover that type of flying well, plus 90% of our flights happen from 19,0 to 33,0 so I guess they figure "why bother". =(

 

[Oakum_Boy]

What kind of high altitude specific training does Pinnacle give to it's pilots?

Or, what kind of high altitude specific training does any airline provide for it's pilots?

enigma

At a competitor, not nearly enough. Flying at the max certified altitude is not intended for novelty.

 

[ArcticFlier]

"Green line" is not a low-speed cue in cruise flight. It is an angle of attack indication superimposed over the speed tape that gives you a reference while performing a flaps 45 approach. Bombardier says that it indicates a speed. That is indirectly true. If you are flying at exactly 1.27 Vs0 at MLW. on a flap 45 approach, that AOA green line will be centered over the speed display, indicating you are on the correct AOA for a MLW landing. If you are flying at an AOA greater than that, it will appear above the speed you are flying. Speed up, and your AOA will decrease, and the green line will move toward the center of the speed tape.

The Super-advanced Collins equipment (tounge in cheek) does not continuously update the 1.27 Vs0 speed based on aircraft weight. Notice how it bounces around in turbulence, even at cruise levels? That is because your angle of attack is changing in turbulent conditions. If it appears at cruise (as it does in both, more so in the -200), it simply indicates that you are flying somewhere close to the 1.27 Vs0 AOA.

Yes, some have come to equate a critical speed with the "green line". But, if your gear isn't down, and flaps 45, it has no real meaning. In Europe the "green line" isn't an installed option. They know that the low-speed cue is the critical information during flight. The low-speed barber pole is the area to avoid.

The CRJ is not capable of operating in a true "coffin corner". It is possible though, that turbulence, or a bleed surge may have disrupted the airflow enough that the engines could not recover from the ensuing compressor stall(s). RIP guys.

You beat me to it..........the green line has nothing to do with cruise flight. It's essentially for approaches. 1.27 VsO

AF

 

[efiscompmon]

Amazing how much bad information makes it through the schoolhouse when half your initial cadre pinks and ground school is taught by a ramper with a flair for the dramatic.