Update on Pinnacle CRJ crash

[Mel Sharples]

I'm only posting this to keep speculation down. This is as "official" as it gets for now, but at least there are a few facts in this.

I still feel sick over this and I don't think that feeling is going to go away for a long time...

_______________________________________________________________

Plane in Jefferson City crash had mechanical problems earlier

[size=-1]08:45 PM CDT on Friday, October 15, 2004 [/size]

[size=-1]By DAVID A. LIEB, Associated Press Writer [/size]

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — A plane that plunged to a fatal crash after both of its jet engines failed had aborted a scheduled takeoff earlier in the day because of an apparent problem with a mechanical system that distributes engine heat throughout the plane.

Federal investigators said Friday evening that the regional jet affiliated with Northwest Airlines had aborted a scheduled flight Thursday from Little Rock, Ark., after an indicator light went on for its bleed-air system.

After undergoing maintenance, the 50-seat Pinnacle Airlines plane was being flown without passengers to Minneapolis when its engines failed and it crashed late Thursday night into a residential area in Missouri's capital city, killing the two pilots. No residents were hurt.

The plane reached 41,000 feet before it went into an aerodynamic stall and lost power from one engine. At 13,000 feet, the second engine quit working. The last contact that air traffic controllers had with the plane was at 9,000 feet when a pilot reported an airport beacon in sight, Carmody said.

The crash site is about two miles from the Jefferson City airport.

Pinnacle Airlines, based in Memphis, Tenn., identified the two deceased pilots as Capt. Jesse Rhodes and First Officer Peter Cesarz but did not release their ages or hometowns. Carmody said earlier Friday that the pilots' bodies had not been recovered, but by looking at the cockpit there's "no doubt" the pilots died.

The plane, bought new by Pinnacle in May 2000, had flown 10,161 hours and had no major problems in inspections required by the Federal Aviation Administration, Pinnacle said.




.

 

[Smacktard]

The plane reached 41,000 feet before it went into an aerodynamic stall and lost power from one engine. At 13,000 feet, the second engine quit working. The last contact that air traffic controllers had with the plane was at 9,000 feet when a pilot reported an airport beacon in sight, Carmody said.

.

Why was it up at 410? It must have taken all night to get up there. Even when it's light (and I know it was really light) going above 370 or so starts to push the envelope. Not to stir anything up, just curious why the hell they were all the way up there...

 

[Lear70]

Probably just for the heck of it. The airplane won't even reach that altitude with pax on board, just not enough thrust. So when we do the ocassional empty flight, a lot of guys have gone up there just to say they have - nothing wrong with it as long as you're inside the "envelope" - I've had Lears up at 51,0 all day long as well as this airplane up at 41,0 twice.

Also something to remember; the people who write these articles are usually NOT aviation experts. Until the NTSB prelim comes back (after the CVR and FDR are recovered along with ATC transcripts, etc and analyzed), we won't know anything concrete, no matter who claims to have "heard it from his buddy's sister's boyfriend's uncle", so let's not start with the crew bashing.

They deserve better than that.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Actually the last few days it's been pretty cold out, the ISA has been right around 0. The CRJ has pretty good performance when it's cold out, and I have had no problems climbing into the 30's even with a full boat. So empty and cold, I would imagine they had no problems reaching 410.

 

[TWheat61]

Crashed Pinnacle jet had earlier problem
Jon Tevlin and Tony Kennedy, Star Tribune
October 16, 2004 PINNACLE1016

JEFFERSON CITY, MO. -- Alphia Witham may have been the only person on Hutton Lane to go to bed early on Thursday. Instead of watching the playoff baseball game between the St. Louis Cardinals and Houston Astros like her neighbors, Witham went to sleep in the back bedroom of her small ranch home on a hill overlooking Jefferson City.

She didn't sleep long. At 10:13 p.m. a 50-seat Northwest Airlink plane with only the pilot and copilot on board slammed into her back yard, about 35 feet from her bedroom window.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is investigating why the relatively new Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-200 crashed, killing the pilots. The plane, which has a strong safety record worldwide, carried no passengers and was en route to Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport from Little Rock, Ark.

Crash siteRichard SennottThe jet's operator, Pinnacle Airlines, a Northwest Airlines affiliate, said the plane was being positioned for a Friday departure from the Twin Cities. On Friday night, federal investigators said the jet had aborted a scheduled flight Thursday from Little Rock after an indicator light went on for a mechanical system that distributes engine heat throughout the plane.

An airplane indicator light typically signifies a problem.

Pinnacle, based in Memphis, operates 102 daily departures from the Twin Cities on behalf of Northwest Airlines.

Wreckage of jetJulie SmithAssociated PressThursday night's accident was the first fatal crash of any type of airplane for Pinnacle since Dec. 1, 1993, when a Northwest Airlink turboprop plane slammed into a mound of mining debris in Hibbing, Minn., killing all 18 on board. That flight, the deadliest air disaster in Minnesota, was operated by Pinnacle's predecessor, Express Airlines I.

NTSB spokeswoman Carol Carmody, also a member of the board, said Friday that the pilots asked to make an emergency landing in Jefferson City after reporting engine trouble.

The NTSB said late Friday that the plane was flying at 41,000 feet when it dropped to 25,000 feet and reported one engine was lost. The jet continued dropping, and at 13,000 feet, the pilots said they lost a second engine. The tower lost contact with the plane at 9,000 feet, the NTSB said.

Emergency vehicles were on their way to the airport when the plane crashed about a mile short of the runway.

The pilots were Capt. Jesse Rhodes of Palm Harbor, Fla., and First Officer Richard Peter Cesarz of Helotes, Texas. Rhodes joined Pinnacle in February 2003. Previously he had been a captain at another regional airline and had more than 6,700 flight hours, the company said. Pinnacle said Cesarz joined the company in June 2004.

Alphia Whitham returns to her home.Richard SennottStar Tribune'A perfect spot'

Witnesses said they heard a low rumble that sounded like thunder shortly before the massive explosion. The flames were so high and the smoke so thick that people 100 feet away couldn't see Witham's house.

"I tell you, these two ladies come into my house, and they were screaming and a-hollering 'Get out of the house,' " said Witham, 78. "I didn't know what was going on. I was in my nightgown and didn't have no shoes."

Like others along Hutton Lane, Witham was stunned at how the 4-year-old twin-engine jet landed in an open spot between three houses in a densely populated neighborhood of modest single-family homes and apartment buildings.

The plane's left wing apparently clipped a tree before it plunged into the hill, Carmody said. The craft broke apart, with the cockpit landing about 70 yards from the fuselage. The plane's tail was in the ground, with one engine through a fence of the home next to Witham's. The heat melted vinyl siding off one house and scorched a back-yard trampoline.

"When I saw the size of the fire, I thought it would spread down the block," said Dana Muessig, cradling her 4-month old, Audrey. "It almost seemed like he aimed for that spot; it was just a perfect spot."

As residents returned Friday to pick up belongings, a team of investigators picked through rubble. The plane's black box and flight data recorder were sent to NTSB offices in Washington.

While some neighbors said it appeared that the plane's left engine was on fire before the crash, Carmody could not confirm that. She said the preliminary investigation would take several days and the final report would take months.

Philip Reed, a spokesman for Pinnacle, said the accident did not cause the airline to change its Friday schedule. In a written statement, Pinnacle Chief Executive Officer Philip Trenary said, "I am greatly saddened by the loss of our crew."

Linked to Northwest

Pinnacle was founded in 1985 and acquired by Northwest Airlines in 1997. Though the company went public last year, Pinnacle has no consumer identity of its own. Its planes are owned by Northwest, are painted Northwest colors and bear Northwest's logo. The company changed its name to Pinnacle in 2001.

Eagan-based Northwest, which owns about 11 percent of Pinnacle's stock, also controls its scheduling, pricing, reservations and ticketing.

Because pilots and other employees at regional operators such as Pinnacle and Mesaba Airlines are paid less than their counterparts at the major carriers, Northwest and other big airlines increasingly rely on them to serve smaller or developing markets.

Pinnacle operates more flights out of Minneapolis-St. Paul than any other regional carrier, including Mesaba Airlines, another Northwest affiliate.

Through August, Pinnacle had 38,500 departures and arrivals out of the Twin Cities, up 65 percent from a year ago. In the first nine months of the year, Pinnacle carried 4.6 million passengers to and from Detroit, Memphis and the Twin Cities, a 44 percent increase over 2003.

A record of safety

It was the first fatal crash of a commercially flown CRJ series regional jet in the United States since the airplane was introduced in 1992 by manufacturer Bombardier Aerospace of Canada. Worldwide, it was only the second fatal accident for a commercially flown CRJ. In June 2003, a Brit Air CRJ-200 crash-landed in Brest, France, killing one pilot. The remaining crew and all 24 passengers survived.

According to Federal Aviation Administration records available through the aviation Web site www.landings.com, the Pinnacle plane that went down Thursday night was not involved in any prior accidents or incidents. FAA records indicate the plane, made in 2000 by Bombardier, had a standard airworthiness certificate.

Bombardier spokesman Bert Cruickshank said the CRJ-200 was delivered to Pinnacle in May 2000 and was one of 109 CRJ-series planes operated by Pinnacle. Reed said the plane that crashed had been in commercial service for a total of 10,161 flight hours when it departed Little Rock. Under the company's FAA-approved maintenance schedule, the plane was required to have its first heavy maintenance check at approximately 8,000 flight hours. Reed said that the plane was inspected according to the schedule and that resulted in "no major findings."

Debby McElroy, a spokeswoman for the Regional Airline Association in Washington, D.C., said Bombardier's CRJ series regional jet has an "extraordinary" safety record.

Bombardier makes three variations of the CRJ -- the CRJ-200 and two stretched versions, the CRJ-700 and CRJ-900. Cruickshank said there are almost 900 CRJ-200 planes in service worldwide with a total of 9 million hours in the air and a total of more than 7.5 million takeoffs.

According to disclosures made to its stockholders, Pinnacle maintains its airplanes with its own repair staff and through FAA-approved vendors at a number of locations.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

An aerodynamic stall?!? UGH! Why do people that know little to nothing about airplanes and accidents spew out so much Sh$t when they write their articles?!?

How about leaving it at engine trouble and let the experts handle the technical info after the investigation.

 

[another cfii]

Thanx for all the warm wishes from all our brothers in the regionals... It's gonna be a tough few weeks, if not months here at pinch nickel... Our MEC has already instructed us, under no circumstances, do not talk to the press, as it will only deter any ongoing investigation to find out the true cause of this crash.

I am certain newspaper reporter or the like will start haunting ANY flightcrews for any insights into the crash. Please DO NOT talk to them, no matter if you fly the RJ or not. Our fellow flagshippers will post any official findings as it comes to light, but not before.

Thank you,

from a lowly FO at PCL

 

[a-v-8er]

An aerodynamic stall?!? UGH! Why do people that know little to nothing about airplanes and accidents spew out so much Sh$t when they write their articles?!?

How about leaving it at engine trouble and let the experts handle the technical info after the investigation.

As a result of the engine trouble they may have been in the coffin' corner at that altitude? Just a thought...

 

[100LL... Again!]

Yep - do NOT EVER trust the news to get it right.


Nest thing they will be tryin to find out if the 'pilot' (always singular reference, never 'pilots') filed a flight plan.

Vultures

 

[bvt1151]

As a result of the engine trouble they may have been in the coffin' corner at that altitude? Just a thought...

Coffin corner doesn't have anything to do with thrust. Its where stall creeps towards Mmo. If you lose an engine at altitude, you just drift down.

 

[Cappy]

Coffin corner would not be reached in the CRJ until above FL450. As the previous poster said, it would intitiate a drift down if an engine failed.

 

[MJ42]

I disagree. depending on which engine you lose the A/P will kick off. Any quick control input at that altitude may cause the aircraft to reach the coffin corner sooner.

Coffin corner would not be reached in the CRJ until above FL450. As the previous poster said, it would intitiate a drift down if an engine failed.

 

[Nova]

Wow, all this quarterbacking and it isn't even Monday yet.

 

[Clyde]

Here's a theory: why don't we be patient and let the NTSB investigators begin their work and see what they have to say. I'm not trying to be a comedian, but we are all better at flying than investigating.

 

[T-Gates]

Wow, all this quarterbacking and it isn't even Monday yet.

Yeah, seriously.....

I don't care how knowledgeable any of us are about the CRJ, or high altitude jet performance. Lets leave this one to to professionals. Discussion among us is useless at best. Speculation based off of crappy news articles is assenine.

 

[leardrivr]

Take it from a guy who has been hand flying lear 20 series aircraft at altitudes up to and including FL450 for many years. An engine flame-out will not cause a coffin corner. I have had the pleasure of experincing many flame outs my self and never had a problem with handiling or speed control. I know these guys probably did'nt have a lot of time in the 390-450 flight levels. But they were professional aviators and I don't think it is right for us to try to explain what really happened to these guys. I also know there has been some discussion about this crews total time and experience. I have always been very outspoken against the hiring practices of regional carriers. However I have learned not to judge a pilot just by hours alone. The captain of this flight was probably a fine aviator and we should all sit back and wait for the investigation to unfold.

 

[Dinger]

It's not speculation.....about coffin corner, that is. It is "defined" as an altitude where Mmo and Stall speed are very close together. At that altitude, any substantial acceleration puts you into an overspeed condition and any substantial slowing puts you into a stall buffet. Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't position. I can't imagine that FL 410 at ISA (or near there) in an RJ would be near it's "coffin corner", but I am not familiar with any of the aircraft limitations or performance numbers. If I am incorrect about the RJ and its altitude capabilities, I wouldn't mind getting some accurate info on it.

 

[Bako Cap]

NO coffin corner

The CRJ doesn't have the power to reach MMO in level flight at 410, not even close, even really light. Let alone it was flight tested well above the listed MMO. Do you really think that the indicated red line is an absolute airspeed for airliners? I don't think the FAA would certify such an aircraft for passenger use.

 

[Dinger]

I didn't say Mmo was an absolute airspeed. Certainly transport category aircraft can go above Mmo before they reach a overspeed buffet or mach tuck condition. Being as light as they were, they obviously were not in danger of a low-speed buffet, so they weren't in the coffin corner, no matter how you want to define it. I guess that is what I was trying to say. No offense.

 

[bvt1151]

"JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — A plane that plunged to a fatal crash after both of its jet engines failed had aborted a scheduled takeoff earlier in the day because of an apparent problem with a mechanical system that distributes engine heat throughout the plane...

...Throughout Friday, nearby residents came with awe to scene, marveling at how the plane had managed to miss houses to its left, right and rear. Across the street was an untouched apartment complex.

"Ooh boy, it's lucky it didn't hit the houses. They'll be thanking their God," said neighbor Kathryn Hajaved, 72, viewing the damage in daylight for the first time."



This statement bothers me. Firstly, when airplanes lose engines, they still fly...they don't plunge. Secondly, the aircraft did not miraculously miss the houses, the pilots did. I'd speculate after the first engine failure they fired up the APU which would have given them the necessary power to have all of their lights on, along with the lights on the ground allowing the two to see the surrounding area. I'm a religious person, and I understand its right to thank God nobody on the ground was hurt, but its also right to thank the pilots for missing the houses.

 

[LJDRVR]

Enough!

You speculating "ninnies" need to read leardrivrs post again. If you think that a CRJ, or any swept-wing jet designed after 1965 has that narrow of an aerodynamic "throat" at cruise, you're smoking crack. A C-model U-2 or a standard wing Lear 23 (Neither of which fly anymore) maybe, but a CRJ?

How about waiting for the NTSB to come out with their final report. In the mean time, let's not dishonor the memory of two fine aviators by stupid, mis-informed, junior high gossip.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Update...

Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Bureau released new details in Thursday night's crash of a Northwest Airlink jet that was heading to the Twin Cities.

The NTSB now says that both engines of the 50-seat CRJ failed at the same time while the plane was cruising at an altitude of 41,000 feet. Earlier reports showed the two engines failed at different times.

Investigators say the fact that both engines failed at the same time could indicate a major power failure aboard the plane. Investigators say the pilots glided for nearly 100-miles without power before crashing into a neighborhood in Jefferson City, Missouri. No one on the ground was injured.

5 EYEWITNESS NEWS has also learned that the same jet was taking off from Little Rock, Arkansas earlier Thursday when it had to abort. We now know that flight was headed to the Twin Cities with 40-passengers aboard. Those passengers were placed on another aircraft.

The pilots were flying the jet to the Twin Cities Thursday night, where it would have gone back into service for flights out of Minnesota. The pilot and co-pilot were killed in the crash. The investigation into what caused the crash continues.

The vice-president of Pinnacle Airlines, which operates the jet for Northwest Airlink says he is confident in the safety of the company's fleet. The smaller commuter jets are being used more and more by the airlines because they are more efficient.

 

[Mel Sharples]

The NTSB now says that both engines of the 50-seat CRJ failed at the same time while the plane was cruising at an altitude of 41,000 feet. Investigators say the pilots glided for nearly 100-miles without power before crashing into a neighborhood in Jefferson City, Missouri.

Oh, sweet Jesus...

Those poor, poor gentlemen. I know it is not official, but the thought of a dual flameout at 41,000 and then gliding all the way down makes me sick.

People always say after incidents like this, "They died doing what they loved." I am NOT trying to be funny, believe me, but do you think they "loved" gliding to earth with no power from 41,000 feet? Ugh. I can't imagine the hell they must have went through.

Let me just say, I'm sure they did all they could to get that thing on the ground safely.

Why was it those two and not any of us? We will never know.

My heart aches for their co-workers, family, and friends.....





.

 

[wood pecker]

Last month we were in the sim for a loft and we asked if we could throw in a 2 eng failure for learning purposes. Of course the answer was no there is not enough time with all the standard bs. I guess it is more critical that we continue doing the same stale loft routine instead of actually learning something that could potentially save our lives + pax. After all according to our instructor we are not likely to have a dual failure. How about some more focus on real emergencies instead of the DC ESS Bus failure which I have had 3 lofts in a row. This is not to be critical of my training dept b/c I truly believe they are the best and they have to do what they are told. I just wonder if I would be proud of my performance in a real emergency when the only practice I get is reciting IAI instead of doing them in a sim more frequently. I hope I will never know b/c I sure the hell don't want every body second guessing my actions, my wife already does that.

 

[Dinger]

We "ninnies" aren't really speculating about what happened to the RJ crew. I think this thread has evolved into more of a discussion on "coffin corner". That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[flyingforfood]

a time to think about how lucky we all are......

 

[flyingforfood]

my boys from gq...any one out there...hope all r good!....tps

 

[JetCapt69]

Dual Flameout

Our company experienced a dual flameout of both engines at FL410 in one of our beechjet 400's while flying over the Gulf of Mexico. They were issued a descent, reduced power and lost both engines. The beechjet does not have a fuel heater, so it requires the fuel additive PRIST to prevent fuel icing at altitude. It has been determined that the PRIST container on the fuel truck was empty when the jet was topped off with fuel.

The crew was able to relight one engine at 13,000 and land safely at Sarasota, Florida. All 7 pax and 2 crew were uninjured.

I don't want to speculate on this accident, but surprising to me, a dual flameout is not beyond possible. I also thought that scenerio was next to impossible, just goes to show how little I know.

Where was the flight attendant on this flight? It makes me wonder if this was a maintenance repo leg with only the required crew onboard.

GOD rest their souls.

 

[strega7]

Didn't a Challenger force land in a field in the middle of the night a few years ago? Lost both engines at altitude and glided in after they couldn't get them restarted. I think it was excess water in the fuel system after refueling and the ice caused a dual engine flameout. I haven't done the 6-weeks in SLC yet so, does the CRJ have a different fuel system that would prevent this from happening? Just wondering.


Praying for the families.

 

[Mike15601]

Accident Description Status: Final [legenda]



Date: 20 MAR 1994
Time: 00:36 CST
Type: Canadair CL-601-3A Challenger
Operator: Crystal Aviation
Registration: N88HA
Msn / C/n: 5072
Crew: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Passengers: 0 fatalities / 0 on board
Total: 0 fatalities / 2 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: Bassett-Rock, NE (USA)
Departure airport: Burlington International Airport, VT (BTV)
Destination airport: Long Beach Municipal Airport, CA (LGB)
Narrative:
Both engines lost power at FL410; forced landing in a field, striking an irrigation structure and trees. Improper refueling by FBO personnel at Lawrence, MA caused the Challenger to depart with water contaminted fuel.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The pilot in command's inadequate planning/decision making and inadequate preflight inspection after receiving a load of contaminated fuel. Related factors are the contaminated fuel, improper refueling by FBO personnel, and the dark night light conditions."
Source: (also check out sources used for every accident)
NTSB








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