United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[Mamma]

Yes, I can imagine some of the oldest pilots should really have retired at 60 or before. I even remember some of the 58 & 59 year olds that barely made it to age 60, but that was when most pilots smoked. Yes, when I first started pilots smoked, even in the cockpit. And I'm told that in the early '60's, it was the exception for a pilot not to smoke and have a cigarette in the cockpit most every leg.

I totally agree! There are a lot who should go prior to 60 also.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I've got cancer right now; already had an operation and am waiting on radiation therapy. Odds are good that I'll fully recover and fly again. My wife's classified as a wounded warrior due to injuries in Iraq and is undergoing Medical Evaluation Board where she will either be medically retired from the Air Force or separated without retirement. She will not be able to work in the civilian world due to her injuries.

Andy, OK, yes bad things have happened to you through no fault of your own. The good news is that it sounds like you will be back to work and able to earn a living to support your family. As you have mentioned, your wife will need assistance for a long time and fortunately you will be able to afford assistance for her, if necessary, while you are on multi-day trips. .

All of this is something you never expected and it will be an expense you never could have planned for. While you have many times stated that you will retire at age 60, as if that is some magical age, the fact is that under the current UAL retirement plan you never know how much money is enough to get through the rest of your life, while being prepared for this new expense or even other catastrophic events that could befall anyone.

So you see, even you, notwithstanding your strong proclamations that you will retire at age 60, may very likely have to fly past that age to 65. That's exactly what I've been saying for the last 7 years, that if a pilot need to, or even just wants to fly to 65 that's his, and only his, decision. That's the new world and the get-out-of-my-seat crowd can't make you quit early.

 

[nimtz]

Al Englehardt, wow that brings back a memory or two. Thankfully I sent my students to a different examiner. That was after I witnessed him walk into a room full of broke CFI's on a hot summer day and introduce himself to someone as "Al Englehart, United 777." Btw he was flying in the right seat at the time (pre Contract 2000) despite his seniority in order to max time off for the examiner business. On the other hand, I watched my father take the first upgrade possible and slog through years of rough schedules to retire happily at 59. He hasn't touched an airplane since and is perfectly fine with that. Sorry Al, empathy wasn't there the first time I read one of your Anti Age 60 manifestos back in the day...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Empathy wasn't there the first time I read one of your Anti Age 60 manifestos back in the day...

And now your happy to have the option of retiring "early" or flying to age 65, right?

 

[Andy]

Sorry to hear of you and your wife's health situation, I'm glad to hear that you have a good prognosis. How do you know that I don't have a much greater health issue that I don't talk about because I don't want pity. You say that I whine all the time and want pity, really? Why have you mentioned this now, I never mentioned my health situation which I can assure you is much worse.

My FI issue is the age 60/65 issue and those who have felt they had a right to throw their grandparents out of their house and into the street, just because it's the grand-kids turn and they want a house.

I'm sorry to learn of your health issues, may God be with you and your wife in your recovery.

Let's be crystal clear. I didn't share my family health issues for pity. I clearly stated that EVERYONE opens their front door and on occasion finds a bag of feces that someone lit on fire. In everyone's life, there will be several bags of flaming feces. My wife and I are dealing with our issues just fine and my wife's isssues (not mine) will almost certainly result in me retiring before I reach the age of 60.

I love how you now try to play a trump card where YOUR health issues are much worse than mine (now that I've shared my medical information), but you feel that you SHOULD still be flying as a 777 captain. The day I was informed by my doctor that I was positive for cancer, I notified the chief pilot's office because my medical was no longer valid. I could no longer legally fly passengers and I refused to put them at risk. I have no doubt that you would not have done the same, as you have clearly demonstrated that you are an amoral person.

OK guys time out. you are both battling health issues. The last thing you need is raising your blood pressure over an internet debate. Andy, I'm sure you are aware there is a correlation between stress, your immune system and cancer cells. Take care of yourself and worry about the things you do have control over.

Dan, I completely understand what you're saying. I may write like I'm an angry person - funny thing is, my sim partner expected me to be much different than I am. I'm not angry; I just don't hesitate to call out people who are not honest. And I don't do it nicely. The last time my blood pressure raised was when I sold a chunk of TSLA for ~$85/sh that I paid $30/sh for a couple of months earlier. TSLA's now trading at $185+. No worries; when I sell too early, I remind myself that I've locked in nice profits and I'd have to pay uncle Sam 39.6% on any additional gains. I don't need the extra money so my blood pressure went up less than a point. It's hard to be upset about taking at 185% profit in two months.

I've made sure that I've got the very best medical doctors out there for myself and my wife. We can afford it and we take an active role in our health care. I'll be just fine; I have had no noticeable physical effects from my cancer. My wife, on the other hand, is a different story. I am working hard to get her closer to being able to live a normal life but we have a lot of work ahead of us. If she's not to the point where she can dress herself after I'm able to get my medical back, I will go on FMLA. Due to her health issues, I'm very likely to retire well before 60.

Andy, OK, yes bad things have happened to you through no fault of your own. The good news is that it sounds like you will be back to work and able to earn a living to support your family. As you have mentioned, your wife will need assistance for a long time and fortunately you will be able to afford assistance for her, if necessary, while you are on multi-day trips. .

All of this is something you never expected and it will be an expense you never could have planned for. While you have many times stated that you will retire at age 60, as if that is some magical age, the fact is that under the current UAL retirement plan you never know how much money is enough to get through the rest of your life, while being prepared for this new expense or even other catastrophic events that could befall anyone.

So you see, even you, notwithstanding your strong proclamations that you will retire at age 60, may very likely have to fly past that age to 65. That's exactly what I've been saying for the last 7 years, that if a pilot need to, or even just wants to fly to 65 that's his, and only his, decision. That's the new world and the get-out-of-my-seat crowd can't make you quit early.

Al, you are fricking clueless that I have to shake my head at your stupidity. I've spent time with veterans who got their brains completely scrambled from IEDs who are more lucent than you. A couple of weeks ago, I had a long conversation with a former Army junior NCO who had both of his legs blown off, lost most of his hearing and sometimes had problems expressing his thoughts. And he had a MUCH better attitude than I've read from you.

Let me make this crystal clear to you. I do NOT need to work to support my family. We have lived a privation and saved more than enough money for us to never work again. While paying for college for my two children. And we never felt deprived of anything. In spite of being furloughed for ~8 years, I'm one of those damned 1%ers.

You, on the other hand, have pissed away more money since 9/11 than most people make in their lifetimes. Let's walk through the math for all of those out there who are reading this thread.
You got somewhere between $400 and $600K (or was it more?) in bond money when United exited bankruptcy in 2006.
You were paid ~$290/hr as a 777 captain after 9/11 until contract 2003.
From 2003-2007 when you retired, your average hourly pay was ~$210/hr.
So you made in excess of $1.5 million from 9/11 until your retirement six years later. And now you claim to be penniless.
I have nothing but contempt for you and everyone like you. Only an absolute fool could piss away that much money in such a short period of time. The ONLY person you have to blame for your financial problems is the man who looks at you in the mirror every morning.

After my first furlough, I spent time living in my car and storage units in order to make sure that I had a cash cushion. I can't imagine how bad you fukked up in order to blow through that much money.

In conclusion, there are a lot of people reading this thread who are not commenting. Take all of this as a cautionary note. If you aren't banking a decent chunk of your monthly pay, you're screwing up and may end up just like Mr Englehardt. Live below your means until you've got a comfortable diversified nest egg.


Sadly, this thread has morphed from a discussion on Captain Skillern (I've been told that he was a good man - I never met him). I have no doubt that the way that LCAL operations are run played no small part in ending his life early. For those of you out there that have been pushed by LCAL (or any other airline) scheduling and the flight office, it's time to push back. Don't let them violate the FARs. I've been called on the carpet for refusing to violate the FARs. And nothing came of it. The FARs are there for safety. Having one of our own die during a flight is NOT a safe operation. I'm not going to make his age an issue; any of us can drop dead inflight if we keep getting pushed to the limit, burning the candle on both ends.

Fly safe, my brothers. And if someone in the Chief Pilot's office gives you a hard time, tell them you don't want to end up like Captain Skillern, pushed to the point of death.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You, on the other hand, have pissed away more money since 9/11 than most people make in their lifetimes. Let's walk through the math for all of those out there who are reading this thread.
You got somewhere between $400 and $600K (or was it more?) in bond money when United exited bankruptcy in 2006.
You were paid ~$290/hr as a 777 captain after 9/11 until contract 2003.
From 2003-2007 when you retired, your average hourly pay was ~$210/hr.
So you made in excess of $1.5 million from 9/11 until your retirement six years later. And now you claim to be penniless.
I have nothing but contempt for you and everyone like you. Only an absolute fool could piss away that much money in such a short period of time. The ONLY person you have to blame for your financial problems is the man who looks at you in the mirror every morning.

You have certainly gone to a lot of effort to prove nothing. I must have really gotten under your skin.

Are you trying to prove I'm a bad money manager or that I'm not really on food stamps? What's your issue? Are you trying to say how smart you are or what?

The facts are that I had a rocky airline career, it got better in my last few years, I retired at age 60, and I'm enjoying life. I don't like to boast about my finances. You seem to have an issue with that!

 

[nimtz]

And now your happy to have the option of retiring "early" or flying to age 65, right?

Sorry Al, after watching my old man sleep through many days off flying longhaul, I believe late career flying should be minimized. Rocky was a great guy. It guts me to think his time came while working for Jeffery.

Perhaps you needed the choice? After watching you rack up business pre 9/11 in Chicago, I'm not sure why. Heck ATP was pretty much a three day check ride mill for service guys back then. Throw in what Andy said and it adds up to nothing but empathy for my buds at legacies that got furloughed (some twice) so the group behind could 'make up what they stole from me.'

In the spirit of your gold star, I am also became burnt out from hearing the first picket line crossers at CAL proclaim "I only need two more years and then I'm outta here." Almost six years late, surprise, it was complete rubbish. Despite your gold star, my line is full of post 60 scabs this month. They will retire as United Captains with 25+ year pins! Nice profession...

 

[Andy]

You have certainly gone to a lot of effort to prove nothing. I must have really gotten under your skin.

Are you trying to prove I'm a bad money manager or that I'm not really on food stamps? What's your issue? Are you trying to say how smart you are or what?

The facts are that I had a rocky airline career, it got better in my last few years, I retired at age 60, and I'm enjoying life. I don't like to boast about my finances. You seem to have an issue with that!

You brought up your finances. You claimed to have been drawing food stamps. I posted the numbers required for someone over 60 to be eligible for food stamps in Illinois. Here's the webpage: https://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=30357

I've got issues with you coming on here proclaiming how bad your lot has been in life and have called you out on the facts. You claimed poverty; I call bullsh!t.

Anyone who thinks I've misstated the details of your earnings can call me on it; I'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to post links to exact figures on how much you made. While I was living in my car and storage units on furlough.

Let's be clear. I think that you're a lying dirtbag who has less morals than Frank Lorenzo. You are one of the lowest scumbags I've come across in my life - and I've spent a lot of time on the wrong side of the tracks living among people where I needed to sleep with one eye open. I'll let others judge you, but will be happy to provide them numbers to back up my statements. And I will ALWAYS call you on your lies.

You want to come on here and paint yourself as something other than the POS that you are? Fine. I'll call you on it. Every single time. There is little that you have done to redeem yourself - how about you go spend time daily in some VA hospitals so that you can see others who have been dealt crappy hands in life? There is little that humbles a man more than engaging in a conversation with a multiple paraplegic who gave his all for this country and still has a positive attitude on life. Empty a colostomy bag or even a catheter bag. That would be enough to make most realize how blessed they are. Who knows - maybe it'll be enough to make you realize how big an a$$hole you are. And make no mistake about it; you're a huge fukking a$$hole.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

How about you go spend time daily in some VA hospitals so that you can see others who have been dealt crappy hands in life? There is little that humbles a man more than engaging in a conversation with a multiple paraplegic who gave his all for this country and still has a positive attitude on life. Empty a colostomy bag or even a catheter bag. That would be enough to make most realize how blessed they are.

There you go again bragging about how great you are as a person and earlier you continue to talk about what a great saver you are. Then, you even want to get sympathy by announcing yours and your wife's medical condition, including what a great care giver you are to your wife.

I'm sure know that I could talk a lot about what I've done in my life and career, all of which is very positive in all aspects but I'm just not the bragger that you are. Yes, you caught me when I jokingly said I was on on food stamps, of course that was not true, but I think everyone knew that was just that, an overstatement to humorously make a point that there are retired pilots who lost everything and they truly are on food stamps. I know of a retired 747 pilot who lost his entire "B" fund in the United stock deal and a divorce, then he had to retire before the Bond distribution. He truly is in poverty and needed to work but ALPA and the "get out of my seat crowd" did everything you could to kick him into the street.

Yes, I know, you will now come back with more insults because that's what people like you do. Your language really tells of your character best of all. You have failed that test.

 

[Mamma]

He truly is in poverty and needed to work but ALPA and the "get out of my seat crowd" did everything you could to kick him into the street.

Can you honestly say you would have supported the age increase in the year or two prior to your upgrade to captain? Understanding the time value of money, would you have supported it then knowing you would stagnate 5 years in the FO seat or be furloughed? Even though you would have gained 5 years to your retire date, would you have been comfortable giving up a "sure thing" for a gamble on making it to age 65 medically?

 

[eaglesview]

I've also been on strike, through 2 bankruptcies, busted my ass to get where I'm at. I grew up in Mississippi from a family where most people didn't finish high school. My dad never saw me play one baseball game growing up because he worked 80 hours as a welder to save money to help whatever way he could to help me go to college. I also was on food stamps and even homeless for a 8 week period. In college (got a full ride scholarship) I played baseball and busted my ass in 2 jobs to pay for my flight training. In my airline, I paid my dues also. I also have an ALPA battle star. So what you're saying is because I'm only 36 I should shut up and deal with it? I say HELL no! I am just entitled to my upgrade as the next person. I've been at my major airline for 9 years. I should've upgraded 2 years ago. Yet I fly with guys who are 63 who are talking about their new boat or new house on the lake. I am blessed to be at a great airline making good pay. But I should be making more as a captain...helping the same dad who busted his ass to get me out of hell and to help me succeed! So...are there guys who have been screwed out there? Yes! But don't be so self centered to think that just because we are younger we aren't entitled to what we deserve. That is such a selfish and elitist thing to say.

Disregard.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Can you honestly say you would have supported the age increase in the year or two prior to your upgrade to captain? Understanding the time value of money, would you have supported it then knowing you would stagnate 5 years in the FO seat or be furloughed? Even though you would have gained 5 years to your retire date, would you have been comfortable giving up a "sure thing" for a gamble on making it to age 65 medically?

To be honest, yes, I would have been disappointed but that would be that, the F/O job really isn't that bad, especially on senior equipment.

 

[Mamma]

To be honest, yes, I would have been disappointed but that would be that, the F/O job really isn't that bad, especially on senior equipment.

"Disappointed" over losing about $300,000 in Captain wages?!?! "Disappointed" over being downgraded to lower equipment or furloughed? What about the guys getting stuck in the regionals for another 5 years as an FO or not even hired after spending $100K on their ratings and education? Should they just be disappointed? I find your answer very suspect. The ONLY rational people who would support this were those approaching age 60 and wanted more money, had no life, or enjoyed the seniority.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

"Disappointed" over losing about $300,000 in Captain wages?!?! "Disappointed" over being downgraded to lower equipment or furloughed? What about the guys getting stuck in the regionals for another 5 years as an FO or not even hired after spending $100K on their ratings and education? Should they just be disappointed? I find your answer very suspect. The ONLY rational people who would support this were those approaching age 60 and wanted more money, had no life, or enjoyed the seniority.

As you know, I retired at age 60.

 

[Mamma]

As you know, I retired at age 60.

Of course I know. I'm just getting to the point of your calling those that are not happy about age 65 as the "get out of my seat" crowd. They lost a lot and you should try and understand that. Someone "got out of their seat" for you and every other captain. Its no big deal for those hired today since the 5 years of stagnation have passed, but those that had to eat those 5 years on furlough, downgrade or not even being hired have a legitimate gripe. That's all I am trying to say. Maybe it could have been implemented better considering the uniqueness of our profession.

 

[scoreboardII]

I sure hope when I die, a forum thread doesn't evolve into something else....

 

[Mamma]

I sure hope when I die, a forum thread doesn't evolve into something else....

I guess that depends on how you die. If you have a stroke while pumping away on a goat, maybe you would want it to evolve.

 

[flyboyike]

I know of a retired 747 pilot who lost his entire "B" fund in the United stock deal and a divorce, then he had to retire before the Bond distribution. He truly is in poverty and needed to work but ALPA and the "get out of my seat crowd" did everything you could to kick him into the street.

He could have come back as an F/O, not to mention numerous other flying jobs a guy with that kind of experience could have got.

 

[densoo]

He truly is in poverty and needed to work but ALPA and the "get out of my seat crowd" did everything you could to kick him into the street.

That's rich, after hosing the bottom third with no pension, no medical, B scale, age 65, reserve workrules, and outsourcing. Get out of my seat? Just because he mismanaged his career shouldn't allow him to mismanage others'. He and his peers allowed this profession to become what it's become. Let the younger crowd at least try to make a living out of what's left of the carnage they oversaw.

 

[scoreboardII]

I guess that depends on how you die. If you have a stroke while pumping away on a goat, maybe you would want it to evolve.

I did not see that coming.