United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[Flopgut]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

I've explained this before but you never remember...

I have something in common with your son. My father lost an airline pension. In fact he lost his job [income], our insurance and his pension on the same day. It was fully funded too btw. I was the oldest child in the family at 14. I will never forget it. Now, I know you think no one could ever understand exactly how you feel, but I assure you, I know it all too well. (We had several gift less Christmas celebations those first few years) What I took from that experience was that a airline pension is NOT to be relied upon. Not at all. It's more like a lotto ticket, maybe it pays someday, but you better not count on it. Good thing, because I did indeed lose mine!

What I do not understand, having had that experience, is how so many other airline pilots didn't take heed. Why did so many like you not even consider that it might happen to you? My Dad showed me that what a union pilot ought to be able to do is be ready for adversity and not have to inordinately lean on his bretheren. Do not miss the chance to be a reliable member and not be the weak link. He fought just as many giants as you did. You obviously feel like you ought to be held up as an esteemed member (you are, or in my case were) but when you lost your pension you acted like it never happened before! Like it was unprecedented!?

So then you sink to going after most of your fellow pilots as perpetrators in some scheme to discriminate against you [age]. What a crock that was, and still is. Recall that when you went on strike, your pilot group took a vote. Whatever the majority said, that's what you did. You didn't have much use for the minority of pilots who chose to cross that line, did you? But it was ok and you were more than justified in running afoul with the majority who thought 60 should remain the age. Hypocrite or scab-esque, it's one of the two for certain.

And to top it all off, when the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

I'm done with you. you did as much damage as you did good. If you don't feel you got your fair share, then the problem is with you. You spent too many years admiring yourself and believing you were better than most.

So that's my "problem". Feel free to not respond.

 

[General Lee]

Firemen and cops have to retire at a certain age. Nobody wants a 63 year old fireman carrying you out of a burning building on his shoulders, you're not going far. A 63 year old cop probably doesn't have great eyesight to shoot guns anymore, especially under pressure. It's called getting older. And before you say "age discrimination", look at the Constitution and the age limitation on how old you need to be to become President of the United States. Isn't that age discrimination? I think so, and it seems legal.

This unfortunate death made National News, and that won't help the pro Age 67 debate. It just won't.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

When the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

Flopgut:

You and others have brought this up before and it's really a ridiculous point. I needed to work when I was forced to "retire." Yes, I wanted to fly but more importantly, I needed money and some kind of security. There were other opportunities besides the new-hire B737F/0 at UAL that you mention; namely, Air India which I interviewed for including a sim check, and almost went ahead with, plus a corporate job flying a Falcon 10 that would include a type rating. The best was the Falcon job which I did. Also, the UAL job didn't look very secure and in fact, as you well know, those pilots hired at that time were, very shortly after being hired, furloughed and just now are being hired. Flopgut, you know all this so why do you keep bringing this ridiculous point up.

Look, you and your family have had a rough airline career, so have many others, in fact that is the norm now. Age 65 is now the law of land and it's hear to stay. You and the other young pilots now have an opportunity for a large retirement IRA type pension fund that no one can ever take away, except Obama, and you have the opportunity to work until age 65; or, you can retire early if you so wish once you have enough money.

While you think of yourself as a victim, you are the great beneficiary of the turmoil. And who do you think you owe thanks for this?

 

[Bringupthebird]

His schedule the last 5 years was a train wreck. PBS and age 65 hit him hard and it showed.

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

 

[five-alive]

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

Did you consider that maybe draconian work rules came with their version of PBS Mr. Yeager? Work under that contract for a year and lets see how you "adapt".

 

[Andy]

You and others have brought this up before and it's really a ridiculous point. I needed to work when I was forced to "retire."

AGAIN, you flew as a 777 captain for SIX YEARS after 9/11 AND got several hundred thousand dollars in bond money when United emerged from bankruptcy. You didn't NEED to work. You needed to learn how to stop pissing away money.

Or you're simply lying about being impoverished; which is a likely possibility. You have the nerve to lie that you were collecting food stamps after retirement; your lack of morality knows no bounds. Your posts are so full of lies that it's incredible that anyone here believes a single word you write.

Did you consider that maybe draconian work rules came with their version of PBS Mr. Yeager? Work under that contract for a year and lets see how you "adapt".

The big problem with LCAL is the contract means nothing; the paper it's written on is worthless. Management and other employees violate the contract without a second thought. Those pilots who try to get the contract enforced find near zero help from CALALPA; trying to get them to file a grievance is a Sisyphean task.

 

[waveflyer]

And yet, as Asiana proved, these highly fit, medically superior pilots managed to ramp strike at SFO!!!

This is what I was thinking-^^

One of my big issues with the age change is the likelihood of increased ridiculousness to the medical process - I definitely don't lobby for more of that and I'm fitter than most and hope most of us have visited a longevity center and gotten a COMPLETE work up - your normal checkup isn't adequate for life- but I don't want my livelihood linked to it.
See the difference- ?

 

[Andy]

I saw the stat somewhere, but apparently, if you are predisposed to an early heart condition, it will most likely show up before you are 60. If you make it to 60 than your chances of a sudden heart attack go down for awhile.
Obviously lifestyle is the biggest factor though.

Dan, I noticed that you didn't post a link. It seemed unlikely that the incidence of heart attacks decreases with age so I looked around for a reference. Here it is: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/heart-attack-statistics-by-age.html

Pertinent portion:
The incident rate of heart attacks per 10,000 people is around 190 in people who are over 85 years of age,
around 117 for those between 75-84 years of age,
66 for those between 65 and 74 years of age,
37 for those between 55 and 64 and
18 for people between 45 and 54.


The incidence of heart attacks almost doubles every ten years. I'd wager that the data was broken out in single year increments, it would indicate that incidence of heart attacks increases every year.

So your chance of heart attacks above 60 decreasing for a while isn't based on facts or statistics.

 

[flyboyike]

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

One of the main paradoxes of the aviator personality is that we are very capable to adapt to changing conditions while flying, but are just as very INcapable to adapt to changes in life.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, I noticed that you didn't post a link. It seemed unlikely that the incidence of heart attacks decreases with age so I looked around for a reference. Here it is: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/heart-attack-statistics-by-age.html

Pertinent portion:
The incident rate of heart attacks per 10,000 people is around 190 in people who are over 85 years of age,
around 117 for those between 75-84 years of age,
66 for those between 65 and 74 years of age,
37 for those between 55 and 64 and
18 for people between 45 and 54.


The incidence of heart attacks almost doubles every ten years. I'd wager that the data was broken out in single year increments, it would indicate that incidence of heart attacks increases every year.

So your chance of heart attacks above 60 decreasing for a while isn't based on facts or statistics.

Your stats miss one very important point. There are two heart attack scenario's , one, that's a result of known heart disease or someone who is ill with all sorts of maladies that would keep them from passing a physical. Of course the older we get the more likely we are to get sick and die, often of a heart attack. As your stats support this accelerates in your 70's, or 60's if you have led an unhealthy lifestyle of hard partying, smoking, junk food and no excersize. The other, what we are talking about here is , someone seemingly healthy, who can pass an FAA physical but has an undetected problem that results in an unexpected heart attack. It's that scenario that I am talking about, if you have a problem that makes you vulnerable to an early heart attack, it generally shows up before 60.

Your stats did not differentiate between the two.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undauntedflyer could have been given another 30 years of flying but he'd still die broke.

Actually, I invested heavily in the market after it crashed with what little cash I had, taking a home equity loan. As a result, I'm not on Food Stamps or any other government assistance at this time, except PBGC, Social Security and Medicare. My cars are old, both with 150,000+ miles and I'm planeless; but, I get along. The only toy I have is a motorcycle. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me as I now have all I need. I've enjoyed my 6+ years since retirement. Best of all, I've taken many long summer road trips with my college age son, camping every night. I also got to work with my older son flying co-pilot for him in a Falcon 10. That airplane is like a little rocketship, and I had the honor of serving as Chairman of the Board at a fairly large GA airport.

Yes, I have had good fortune since my retirement, but did the pilots who were forced to retire at age-60 get the shaft? Yes, of course they did. I hear of and meet many retired pilots who barely exist financially on account of past divorces, medical issues, and other problems, such as bad investments in UAL stock before it crashed. Those pilots really needed to work 5 more years and many of you will too for whatever reasons or the same reasons; but, that''s the way it was and now that great wrong has been corrected, no thanks to the Union that I and so many other paid so much to support.

I hope the "Get out of my Seat" crowd will enjoy the new opportunity that's now part of their career: Retire early or work 5 extra years. What a great and progressive change. BTW, have you noticed that practically no one retires at age 60. I guess they all want to continue flying, something the "get out of my seat" crowd will mostly all do too. Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has? I doubt it.

I love you all, enjoy your careers and the choices you now have, no thanks to your union.

 

[flyboyike]

Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has?

If it takes to age 60 just to make Captain, I'm not interested. I'll be long gone by then.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If it takes to age 60 just to make Captain, I'm not interested. I'll be long gone by then.

I don't understand your post, this is an up and down cyclical business. Where would you go if you're over age 50 now and at the bottom of the seniority list as some of the furloughees are now? You would say right there to finally make it to the position you've waited for.

 

[flyboyike]

I don't understand your post, this is an up and down cyclical business. Where would you go if you're over age 50 now and at the bottom of the seniority list as some of the furloughees are now? You would say right there to finally make it to the position you've waited for.

If I'm 50 and at the bottom of the seniority list, I'll go do something else. I have other skills, I'm not helpless. It's hard enough to be at the bottom(again) at 38, I sure as hell am not doing it at 50.

 

[Mamma]

I hope the "Get out of my Seat" crowd will enjoy the new opportunity that's now part of their career: Retire early or work 5 extra years. What a great and progressive change. BTW, have you noticed that practically no one retires at age 60. I guess they all want to continue flying, something the "get out of my seat" crowd will mostly all do too. Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has? I doubt it.

I love you all, enjoy your careers and the choices you now have, no thanks to your union.

Here's the thing Undaunted, you KNEW from the day you started that age 60 was the law of the land. You planned for it, your compensation reflected it and you adjusted your life knowing this would happen like every pilot did for decades before. You expected those above you to retire and "get out of your seat" so you could advance and provide for your family in your later years. So now, your generation pushed through age 65 and pulled up the ladder on those behind you with young kids, mortgages and looming college bills. That is life in the industry. Nobody except those hired after the 5 years of stagnation and those that pushed on to age 65 as captains won. Thousands were stranded in the regionals, the right seat, furloughed or never hired because of this decision. For you to be so righteous as to not recognize this is unbelievable. To call them loudmouths and idiots after they lost big is amazing. Time value of money. You advanced to captain based on guys leaving at age 60.

Believe it or not, if I could retire tomorrow I would. My wife and I have a retirement plan of age 55. Age 55 to have the option to retire and have a good life. I will probably go to age 60 if my pension is still intact but I doubt it will be so 55 it most likely is. I found this thing called a life and a budget and it is WAY more fun than working.

Here is the thing that you alluded to discovering....there is a life outside of flying!!!! You don't have to define yourself as being a pilot!! You can be a family man riding your motorcycle with your son camping around the country and flying co-pilot with your other son on the Falcon 10. BoD of an airport! Wow! It sounds like getting retired from the airline business was the best thing that ever happened to you. You will cherish these moments 100X more than flying a 777 across the pond with a bunch of strangers to get a few more bucks. On your deathbed you will look back and thank the heavens that you were forced to retire at age 60 vs trudging along in the trenches for 5 more years missing everything. I am a bit younger but after many life lessons I have learned that money is not everything and defining myself as a pilot is the wrong thing to do. I am a family man first and I can live very comfortably on a lot less than I used to think. From your stories it sounds like you have found the same but are too stubborn to admit it.