United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[Freeze_gopher]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

I was still in high school in 85, but I remember as clearly as yesterday my dad sitting at the kitchen table when I asked him if he was still going to have a job. His reply was very honest "I don't know." Then very quickly he reassured me that everything would be just fine, and he was right. But, nobody knew how far Ferris was willing to go in breaking the Union.

There are many of us that are aware of, and have enormous respect for, those that came before us.

 

[vetrider]

My dad was a UAL 66 hire. Nineteen years to 737-200 captain, after bouncing like a ping pong ball between FO and FE, the last trip to FE being in 1981. The 70s was a lost decade for UAL(and others) much like the last 10 years has been for all of us.

Dad was never furloughed, but undaunted sure was. Growing up I never heard him complain, it's just the way it was. I think sometimes nowdays many of us forget what the seniors amongst us once went through. It's hard to quantify in totality, retirement age is just a tough issue.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

I'm counting 3 dead at MY airline, not just the guy over 60. They ALL had families Laker. Yeah, you, Undaunted and Roman want to jump in here and manage the issue for the old guy imperative, I knew the 51 YO. His schedule the last 5 years was a train wreck. PBS and age 65 hit him hard and it showed. I would guess he put on 50-75 lbs in the last 5-6 years. We used to discuss possible ramifications of the age change, now we're seeing actual consequences. This change needed to include some balance in the seniority paradigm where everybody took a few months of reserve or worked a few weekends or something like that. Instead, what this rule was really about was taking the seniority bump. Just like the poster boy Undaunted made very clear for us. He didn't want the job if it didn't give him the seniority.


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Perhaps I missed the point of this post, but the bolded phrase above sits, with me, particularly poorly. I'm not sure what you mean by seniority being given to him? It was his to do with as he saw fit, it was his, he earned it.

 

[Andy]

Perhaps I missed the point of this post, but the bolded phrase above sits, with me, particularly poorly. I'm not sure what you mean by seniority being given to him? It was his to do with as he saw fit, it was his, he earned it.

Undauntedflyer claimed that he'd come back as a newhire FO if the rule changed after he retired. He lied. Period. He took a job as chairman of the board of Chicago executive airport, which paid him $400/month. Newhires at the lowest paying regionals got more per month than that in 2007.

Undauntedflyer retired in Dec 2007. He was a 777 captain on 9/11 and for the rest of his career. That's more than 6 years AFTER 9/11 to prepare for the loss of his pension, which was turned over to the PBGC in 2003.

Undauntedflyer was given several hundred thousand dollars as part of the bond division among ACTIVE pilots (no retirees, no furloughees) when UAL emerged from bankruptcy.

Undauntedflyer could have been given another 30 years of flying but he'd still die broke.

 

[IBNAV8R]

There seems to be a common thread in all the "we need tougher standards" posts. It is the unwritten assumption that the desired standards will never affect oneself.

I really miss being young, invincible and condescending of those who dare to not age in the manner I think appropriate.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

I've explained this before but you never remember...

I have something in common with your son. My father lost an airline pension. In fact he lost his job [income], our insurance and his pension on the same day. It was fully funded too btw. I was the oldest child in the family at 14. I will never forget it. Now, I know you think no one could ever understand exactly how you feel, but I assure you, I know it all too well. (We had several gift less Christmas celebations those first few years) What I took from that experience was that a airline pension is NOT to be relied upon. Not at all. It's more like a lotto ticket, maybe it pays someday, but you better not count on it. Good thing, because I did indeed lose mine!

What I do not understand, having had that experience, is how so many other airline pilots didn't take heed. Why did so many like you not even consider that it might happen to you? My Dad showed me that what a union pilot ought to be able to do is be ready for adversity and not have to inordinately lean on his bretheren. Do not miss the chance to be a reliable member and not be the weak link. He fought just as many giants as you did. You obviously feel like you ought to be held up as an esteemed member (you are, or in my case were) but when you lost your pension you acted like it never happened before! Like it was unprecedented!?

So then you sink to going after most of your fellow pilots as perpetrators in some scheme to discriminate against you [age]. What a crock that was, and still is. Recall that when you went on strike, your pilot group took a vote. Whatever the majority said, that's what you did. You didn't have much use for the minority of pilots who chose to cross that line, did you? But it was ok and you were more than justified in running afoul with the majority who thought 60 should remain the age. Hypocrite or scab-esque, it's one of the two for certain.

And to top it all off, when the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

I'm done with you. you did as much damage as you did good. If you don't feel you got your fair share, then the problem is with you. You spent too many years admiring yourself and believing you were better than most.

So that's my "problem". Feel free to not respond.

 

[General Lee]

Firemen and cops have to retire at a certain age. Nobody wants a 63 year old fireman carrying you out of a burning building on his shoulders, you're not going far. A 63 year old cop probably doesn't have great eyesight to shoot guns anymore, especially under pressure. It's called getting older. And before you say "age discrimination", look at the Constitution and the age limitation on how old you need to be to become President of the United States. Isn't that age discrimination? I think so, and it seems legal.

This unfortunate death made National News, and that won't help the pro Age 67 debate. It just won't.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

When the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

Flopgut:

You and others have brought this up before and it's really a ridiculous point. I needed to work when I was forced to "retire." Yes, I wanted to fly but more importantly, I needed money and some kind of security. There were other opportunities besides the new-hire B737F/0 at UAL that you mention; namely, Air India which I interviewed for including a sim check, and almost went ahead with, plus a corporate job flying a Falcon 10 that would include a type rating. The best was the Falcon job which I did. Also, the UAL job didn't look very secure and in fact, as you well know, those pilots hired at that time were, very shortly after being hired, furloughed and just now are being hired. Flopgut, you know all this so why do you keep bringing this ridiculous point up.

Look, you and your family have had a rough airline career, so have many others, in fact that is the norm now. Age 65 is now the law of land and it's hear to stay. You and the other young pilots now have an opportunity for a large retirement IRA type pension fund that no one can ever take away, except Obama, and you have the opportunity to work until age 65; or, you can retire early if you so wish once you have enough money.

While you think of yourself as a victim, you are the great beneficiary of the turmoil. And who do you think you owe thanks for this?

 

[Bringupthebird]

His schedule the last 5 years was a train wreck. PBS and age 65 hit him hard and it showed.

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

 

[five-alive]

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

Did you consider that maybe draconian work rules came with their version of PBS Mr. Yeager? Work under that contract for a year and lets see how you "adapt".