United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Nuclear stress test is the gold standard in heart tests, the problem is if you were to have to do one of those every year you would set off the airport scanners for a week because you have radioactive fluid in your blood. A heart ct scan maybe called minor by some but a cath goes in through your groin. That does not sound fun. EKG every year is fine, this is very rare for someone to have an mi at the controls. What you are talking about would hurt our industry not help it. My wife is a cardiac ep and says the nuc test would be the only way to know for sure if someone is at imminent risk. I sure as heck would not want to get one of those every year I don't know about you.

Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT
I agree it will not change overnight but continuing the ridiculous PASS ANYBODY medical the FAA is currently using will continue to be the reason Pilots are dying at the controls. There is MUCH room for improvement and tightening up the standards perhaps an incremental phased in increase in testing and monitoring will be the solution that is acceptable. In China the CAAC Doctors will show up at your preflight briefing and ask you to take your blood pressure. If it is over the standard (140/90) then you do NOT fly that day, your grounded.

In China all pilots do a treadmill stress test at age 49 and thereafter every other year. It is NOT an invasive procedure, simply a treadmill stress test where they load your heart up on a treadmill. I jog but the treadmill speed goes almost George Jetson speed for about 5 minutes getting your heart to peak perform then they perform the EKG analysis. The CT Scan in China is minimally invasive. It is a non-nuclear dye but does contain a contrasting agent simply fed via your vein in left arm where you have blood drawn. It is only ordered if a Doctor determines the test is warranted. The heart color ultrasound is performed on every pilot at age 40 and is not invasive but shows the inside inner workings of the heart, the chambers and all the valves. The FAA standard is just not testing thoroughly enough nor are the standards enforced enough.

 

[scoreboardII]

I did the Nuclear treadmill thing, not fun, never fun running while an IV is pushing stuff into your veins. Passed with no issue, but Dr said it only finds 60% of the problems, so even with that level, 40% of the deadly gotchas are going to get through the screening. If they want me to do it every year, I'm going to need lots more pay to subject myself to that ass pain. This is why we have two in the cockpit folks. People over 40 just die folks...

 

[TXDanno]

Rocky Skillern was past commander of the 68th Airlift Squadron, USAFR, Kelly Field, San Antonio, TX.
Condolences to his family.
Godspeed, Rocky

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The more advanced the Medical Test, the more pilots will be grounded. Doctors keep looking for a medical "Crystal Ball", but it doesn't exist. I.E., I know a pilot who was grounded by an irregular EKG. He never got his medical back. I just saw him at OSH AirVenture convention. He is 82 years old and in perfect health, playing tennis and golf most every day.

Be careful what you wish for, or think ought to be, it may get you grounded even though you are a healthy person.

 

[sshrae]

Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT
I agree it will not change overnight but continuing the ridiculous PASS ANYBODY medical the FAA is currently using will continue to be the reason Pilots are dying at the controls. There is MUCH room for improvement and tightening up the standards perhaps an incremental phased in increase in testing and monitoring will be the solution that is acceptable. In China the CAAC Doctors will show up at your preflight briefing and ask you to take your blood pressure. If it is over the standard (140/90) then you do NOT fly that day, your grounded.

In China all pilots do a treadmill stress test at age 49 and thereafter every other year. It is NOT an invasive procedure, simply a treadmill stress test where they load your heart up on a treadmill. I jog but the treadmill speed goes almost George Jetson speed for about 5 minutes getting your heart to peak perform then they perform the EKG analysis. The CT Scan in China is minimally invasive. It is a non-nuclear dye but does contain a contrasting agent simply fed via your vein in left arm where you have blood drawn. It is only ordered if a Doctor determines the test is warranted. The heart color ultrasound is performed on every pilot at age 40 and is not invasive but shows the inside inner workings of the heart, the chambers and all the valves. The FAA standard is just not testing thoroughly enough nor are the standards enforced enough.

I don't know about a ct scan in china, but in the us that means heart cath, they go in through your groin with a catheter and inspect your heart. Fortunately I have a healthy heart, if they make me go through that I can find another line of work. If they wanted to take the ultimate safety measure they would have us all implanted with cardiac pacemakers.
When was the last accident in an airline because of this? Never.
In china airliners crash all the time with your perfectly healthy pilots, don't even get me started with Japan..

 

[rettofly]

Yes toughen up the standards. No an EKG is not enough. In China every year you do an EKG, 24 EKG, treadmill stress test, 24 hour blood pressure test, blood and urine tests of over 40 items, heart color ultrasound test, some pilots do a minimally invasive Heart CT scan. In Japan only 50% of pilots pass the initial test and many are disqualified along the way. The Candy Arse FAA medical check IS the PROBLEM. If the process was toughened and the standards strictly enforced then many of these incidents would not be occurring.

OK, so you have superbly medically screened pilots who are unable to do a visual approach in clear and a million weather because they have automation drilled into them.

Perhaps we could eliminate the issue by accelerating the move toward pilotless aircraft.

 

[Dan Roman]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

This is one of the best posts I've seen that put the reality of age 60 in perspective. I have yet to see any anti age 65 post that says anything other than than how upset they are that their career path encountered a speed bump (like whose hasn't in this line of work) when in fact they also received an extra 5 years of earning potential. The anti 65 crew has no problem with a pilot having his pension stolen and being forced out with no time to make it up, yet somehow they think they are the victims when in fact they will get the benefit of 5 extra years if they want to. But the worst is the morons combining arrogance and ignorance to come up with the comment that those guys should have "planned" better. Like pilots 20 years ago should have predicted their pensions would have disappeared and are irresponsible for not funding an adequate retirement on the side.

 

[five-alive]

I don't know about a ct scan in china, but in the us that means heart cath, they go in through your groin with a catheter and inspect your heart. Fortunately I have a healthy heart, if they make me go through that I can find another line of work. If they wanted to take the ultimate safety measure they would have us all implanted with cardiac pacemakers.
When was the last accident in an airline because of this? Never.
In china airliners crash all the time with your perfectly healthy pilots, don't even get me started with Japan..

I think you got your tests mixed up. A CT heart scan is not the same thing as a heart cath. A CT scan simply involves laying the scanner to create a 3d scan of the heart and arteries to see potential blockages.

And yes stress tests are not entirely reliable. Bill Clinton "aced" his stress test before he was rushed to the hospital for bypass surgery.

As for higher standards, GMAB. I don't see planes crashing everywhere due to pilots having heart attacks. This happens once in a blue moon and all the opportunists like wyoming call for a knee jerk "increase the standards". If you want a thorough workover go to your personal doctor.

 

[Andy]

I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps)

Wow. Congratulations on pissing away that check you got when UAL emerged from bankruptcy along with not saving money during the 4+ years you were flying as a 777 captain after the pension was cancelled. What did you get - $400K or so? I got zero. And yet I'm in much better financial shape than you because you wouldn't know how to save a dime if your life depended on it.

You were drawing a salary of $400/month as chairman of the board of Chicago executive airport, a position you retired from earlier this year. If you were so desperate for money, why would you take such a job?

How about the money you were making as a designated examiner after you retired?

You're still living in your house at 910 Burris Ave, Lake Bluff, Il 60044. Why not sell it and live in a homeless shelter if things are that bad?

Just so everyone here understands how little money one can make in order to qualify for food stamps (SNAP) in Illinois, a couple above the age of 60 would have to make less than $2,522/month.


Edward, the bottom line is that someone like you could work until he died at the controls of an aircraft and still be broke, needing to work 'just a couple more years'. I'm 15 years younger than you my wife and I have well in excess of 7 figures saved/fully diversified 'just in case'. Our only monthly bills are cable TV, phone, and any credit card charges (that we pay off every month). No rent, no mortgage.
We don't drive the newest cars; mine's 14 years old and runs great, the wife's is 8 years old and looks like it's brand new. No airplanes or other toys - you had at least two planes that you owned at one time along with some motorcycles, right?

For those that have a few years remaining until retirement, take E Allan Englehardt's story as a cautionary tale. If you aren't banking a decent chunk of your salary for retirement, you'll find yourself eating cat food in a homeless shelter. Or you'll be posting on FI, lying about how bad your finances are.

 

[Andy]

This is one of the best posts I've seen that put the reality of age 60 in perspective. I have yet to see any anti age 65 post that says anything other than than how upset they are that their career path encountered a speed bump (like whose hasn't in this line of work) when in fact they also received an extra 5 years of earning potential. The anti 65 crew has no problem with a pilot having his pension stolen and being forced out with no time to make it up, yet somehow they think they are the victims when in fact they will get the benefit of 5 extra years if they want to. But the worst is the morons combining arrogance and ignorance to come up with the comment that those guys should have "planned" better. Like pilots 20 years ago should have predicted their pensions would have disappeared and are irresponsible for not funding an adequate retirement on the side.

Dan, Edward Allan Englehardt is well known for gross exaggerations. But consider these two facts:
1) He got a fat check when UAL emerged from bankruptcy.
2) He retired in Dec 2007, long enough to know that he wouldn't be getting much from PBGC. If, as a 777 captain, he didn't have the discipline to save most of his income in the last 5 years of his career, it is ENTIRELY his fault. Anyone who sympathizes with his gross exaggerations would have been a great customer of PT Barnum.

As far as pensions disappearing, this industry has been littered with airline employees over the last 60 years who have lost their entire defined benefit pensions. Anyone thinking that they're exempt is also a great customer of PT Barnum.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

I was still in high school in 85, but I remember as clearly as yesterday my dad sitting at the kitchen table when I asked him if he was still going to have a job. His reply was very honest "I don't know." Then very quickly he reassured me that everything would be just fine, and he was right. But, nobody knew how far Ferris was willing to go in breaking the Union.

There are many of us that are aware of, and have enormous respect for, those that came before us.

 

[vetrider]

My dad was a UAL 66 hire. Nineteen years to 737-200 captain, after bouncing like a ping pong ball between FO and FE, the last trip to FE being in 1981. The 70s was a lost decade for UAL(and others) much like the last 10 years has been for all of us.

Dad was never furloughed, but undaunted sure was. Growing up I never heard him complain, it's just the way it was. I think sometimes nowdays many of us forget what the seniors amongst us once went through. It's hard to quantify in totality, retirement age is just a tough issue.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

I'm counting 3 dead at MY airline, not just the guy over 60. They ALL had families Laker. Yeah, you, Undaunted and Roman want to jump in here and manage the issue for the old guy imperative, I knew the 51 YO. His schedule the last 5 years was a train wreck. PBS and age 65 hit him hard and it showed. I would guess he put on 50-75 lbs in the last 5-6 years. We used to discuss possible ramifications of the age change, now we're seeing actual consequences. This change needed to include some balance in the seniority paradigm where everybody took a few months of reserve or worked a few weekends or something like that. Instead, what this rule was really about was taking the seniority bump. Just like the poster boy Undaunted made very clear for us. He didn't want the job if it didn't give him the seniority.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Perhaps I missed the point of this post, but the bolded phrase above sits, with me, particularly poorly. I'm not sure what you mean by seniority being given to him? It was his to do with as he saw fit, it was his, he earned it.

 

[Andy]

Perhaps I missed the point of this post, but the bolded phrase above sits, with me, particularly poorly. I'm not sure what you mean by seniority being given to him? It was his to do with as he saw fit, it was his, he earned it.

Undauntedflyer claimed that he'd come back as a newhire FO if the rule changed after he retired. He lied. Period. He took a job as chairman of the board of Chicago executive airport, which paid him $400/month. Newhires at the lowest paying regionals got more per month than that in 2007.

Undauntedflyer retired in Dec 2007. He was a 777 captain on 9/11 and for the rest of his career. That's more than 6 years AFTER 9/11 to prepare for the loss of his pension, which was turned over to the PBGC in 2003.

Undauntedflyer was given several hundred thousand dollars as part of the bond division among ACTIVE pilots (no retirees, no furloughees) when UAL emerged from bankruptcy.

Undauntedflyer could have been given another 30 years of flying but he'd still die broke.

 

[IBNAV8R]

There seems to be a common thread in all the "we need tougher standards" posts. It is the unwritten assumption that the desired standards will never affect oneself.

I really miss being young, invincible and condescending of those who dare to not age in the manner I think appropriate.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family. You, on the other hand, will have 5 extra years to build up a real pension and provide for the expenses that every family man has. You are welcome for this bonus you never expected, but where's the thanks?

On the other hand, I had a career of 20-years flying sideways, 2 very long furloughs and my pension stolen and had ALPA (and you) doing everything they could to prevent me from working once my pension was lost. In your career, partly on account of my efforts, you will earn far more money than I every did. Where's the thanks.

And regarding crossing a picket line: I put it all on the line in '85 and have a "ALPA Battlestar" pin to prove it. I walked the line every day for 28 days to help prevent a "B" scale. What thanks do I get, just insults from the likes of you and others on this Board that know nothing of the facts.

How about you, what have you ever done for the airline pilot's professional cause? Pickup you paycheck? That's right, nothing but write insults on FI, as usual, right?

In any event, I love you my former colleague.

The courtesy of a reply would be appreciated.

I've explained this before but you never remember...

I have something in common with your son. My father lost an airline pension. In fact he lost his job [income], our insurance and his pension on the same day. It was fully funded too btw. I was the oldest child in the family at 14. I will never forget it. Now, I know you think no one could ever understand exactly how you feel, but I assure you, I know it all too well. (We had several gift less Christmas celebations those first few years) What I took from that experience was that a airline pension is NOT to be relied upon. Not at all. It's more like a lotto ticket, maybe it pays someday, but you better not count on it. Good thing, because I did indeed lose mine!

What I do not understand, having had that experience, is how so many other airline pilots didn't take heed. Why did so many like you not even consider that it might happen to you? My Dad showed me that what a union pilot ought to be able to do is be ready for adversity and not have to inordinately lean on his bretheren. Do not miss the chance to be a reliable member and not be the weak link. He fought just as many giants as you did. You obviously feel like you ought to be held up as an esteemed member (you are, or in my case were) but when you lost your pension you acted like it never happened before! Like it was unprecedented!?

So then you sink to going after most of your fellow pilots as perpetrators in some scheme to discriminate against you [age]. What a crock that was, and still is. Recall that when you went on strike, your pilot group took a vote. Whatever the majority said, that's what you did. You didn't have much use for the minority of pilots who chose to cross that line, did you? But it was ok and you were more than justified in running afoul with the majority who thought 60 should remain the age. Hypocrite or scab-esque, it's one of the two for certain.

And to top it all off, when the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

I'm done with you. you did as much damage as you did good. If you don't feel you got your fair share, then the problem is with you. You spent too many years admiring yourself and believing you were better than most.

So that's my "problem". Feel free to not respond.

 

[General Lee]

Firemen and cops have to retire at a certain age. Nobody wants a 63 year old fireman carrying you out of a burning building on his shoulders, you're not going far. A 63 year old cop probably doesn't have great eyesight to shoot guns anymore, especially under pressure. It's called getting older. And before you say "age discrimination", look at the Constitution and the age limitation on how old you need to be to become President of the United States. Isn't that age discrimination? I think so, and it seems legal.

This unfortunate death made National News, and that won't help the pro Age 67 debate. It just won't.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

When the age did change it was specifically written to allow a guy like you to come back. You had a guaranteed job; You could not be turned away. And although you said you would come back, you turned your nose up at it. Do you even realize how stupid that made us ALL look? If you were out to correct discrimination then you would have not missed the chance to toe that line. But as we all found out (and Congress did too) you only wanted your previous seniority back. It was about you keeping seniority.

Flopgut:

You and others have brought this up before and it's really a ridiculous point. I needed to work when I was forced to "retire." Yes, I wanted to fly but more importantly, I needed money and some kind of security. There were other opportunities besides the new-hire B737F/0 at UAL that you mention; namely, Air India which I interviewed for including a sim check, and almost went ahead with, plus a corporate job flying a Falcon 10 that would include a type rating. The best was the Falcon job which I did. Also, the UAL job didn't look very secure and in fact, as you well know, those pilots hired at that time were, very shortly after being hired, furloughed and just now are being hired. Flopgut, you know all this so why do you keep bringing this ridiculous point up.

Look, you and your family have had a rough airline career, so have many others, in fact that is the norm now. Age 65 is now the law of land and it's hear to stay. You and the other young pilots now have an opportunity for a large retirement IRA type pension fund that no one can ever take away, except Obama, and you have the opportunity to work until age 65; or, you can retire early if you so wish once you have enough money.

While you think of yourself as a victim, you are the great beneficiary of the turmoil. And who do you think you owe thanks for this?

 

[Bringupthebird]

His schedule the last 5 years was a train wreck. PBS and age 65 hit him hard and it showed.

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

 

[five-alive]

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

I mean a good pilot, of course.

Do you think the paramedics in Boise were saying, "Somebody get this poor guy a bid package, STAT!"

Did you consider that maybe draconian work rules came with their version of PBS Mr. Yeager? Work under that contract for a year and lets see how you "adapt".