United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[bizicmo]

I did not see that coming.

People don't normally see death coming, but now you know what to look for.

 

[SWA Bubba]

People don't normally see death coming, but now you know what to look for.

If death comes to me in the form of a goat backing up and onto my johnson, I'm pretty sure I don't WANT to see that coming. Especially if I'm flying a plane at the time.

Jes' sayin'.

Bubba

 

[Andy]

Yes, you caught me when I jokingly said I was on on food stamps, of course that was not true, but I think everyone knew that was just that, an overstatement to humorously make a point that there are retired pilots who lost everything and they truly are on food stamps.

Your previous words:

Flopgut:

What's your problem? I lost my pension and retired into poverty (PBGC and food stamps) at age-60 when I was perfectly healthy and could have flown for 5 more years helping my kid with his college tuition and providing for my family.

No one took your comment as 'jokingly'. Just another lie from you.


I have thrown you multiple olive branches over the years. You chose to spit in my face. Mulitple times. I now refuse to give you quarter, so stop begging for it.

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it'.
- Warren Buffett
You've trashed your reputation so many times that Don Rostenkowski has a better reputation than you.

Go away. You have not been relevant for years and your have so deeply tarnished your reputation that no one who has spent any time investigating your past has any respect for you.

You have gone to great lengths to make me your enemy. But I don't see you as an enemy; you are merely a parasitic gnat whom I derive pleasure in pointing out your blatant lies. In your case, I find schadenfreude to be very pleasurable in both your lies here and your future in retirement.

 

[Flopgut]

Your previous words:


No one took your comment as 'jokingly'. Just another lie from you.

I wasn't sure... Then he admits he was joking!? I can't believe he doesn't know better than to joke about that. He is obviously even more out of touch with reality than I could have imagined. He has no idea how bad things actually got for a lot of pilots *as a direct result of age 65!*What an ass.


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[flyboyike]

In your case, I find schadenfreude to be very pleasurable in both your lies here and your future in retirement.

Is this schadenfreude anything like fahrvernugen or is it completely different?

 

[The Prussian]

Thanks for the entertainment, guys...right when I was beginning to suffer from the boredom of "post 'Breaking Bad' syndrome"...:cartman:

 

[jetjock6]

Thanks for the entertainment, guys...right when I was beginning to suffer from the boredom of "post 'Breaking Bad' syndrome"...:cartman:

For Entertainment:
1. Go to FI.com
2. Without looking at title, click on last page of thread.
3. Read entire page.
4. Try to determain what title or subject of thread is.

At first, most your guesses will be "Your Airline Sucks and Your an Idiot" but play through it.

 

[Dan Roman]

I've also been on strike, through 2 bankruptcies, busted my ass to get where I'm at. I grew up in Mississippi from a family where most people didn't finish high school. My dad never saw me play one baseball game growing up because he worked 80 hours as a welder to save money to help whatever way he could to help me go to college. I also was on food stamps and even homeless for a 8 week period. In college (got a full ride scholarship) I played baseball and busted my ass in 2 jobs to pay for my flight training. In my airline, I paid my dues also. I also have an ALPA battle star. So what you're saying is because I'm only 36 I should shut up and deal with it? I say HELL no! I am just entitled to my upgrade as the next person. I've been at my major airline for 9 years. I should've upgraded 2 years ago. Yet I fly with guys who are 63 who are talking about their new boat or new house on the lake. I am blessed to be at a great airline making good pay. But I should be making more as a captain...helping the same dad who busted his ass to get me out of hell and to help me succeed! So...are there guys who have been screwed out there? Yes! But don't be so self centered to think that just because we are younger we aren't entitled to what we deserve. That is such a selfish and elitist thing to say.

This pretty is pretty typical of the argument the anti 65 crowd makes. Thousands of pilots had their pensions stolen with little warning and at an age were it's impossible to save enough in DC plan to make it up. The retirement plans for most we're changed to DC plans that favor younger pilots. Younger pilots now have the option of working to age 65 if they want and every year later in their career means huge gains to their DC plan.
Yet you are incensed that you didn't upgrade after 7 years with your company and had to spend an extra few years in the right seat. That sounds pretty "selfish and elitist " to me. Let a guy at 59 be kicked to the street (and denied Social Security till he is 62) just after his pension has been stolen rather than wait a couple years to upgrade. Amazing.

 

[Flopgut]

This pretty is pretty typical of the argument the anti 65 crowd makes. Thousands of pilots had their pensions stolen with little warning and at an age were it's impossible to save enough in DC plan to make it up. The retirement plans for most we're changed to DC plans that favor younger pilots. Younger pilots now have the option of working to age 65 if they want and every year later in their career means huge gains to their DC plan.
Yet you are incensed that you didn't upgrade after 7 years with your company and had to spend an extra few years in the right seat. That sounds pretty "selfish and elitist " to me. Let a guy at 59 be kicked to the street (and denied Social Security till he is 62) just after his pension has been stolen rather than wait a couple years to upgrade. Amazing.

Dan: As I have said before, all anyone has to do is open Flying the Line and start reading any page. Throughout that book your generation fumbles and fights through all sorts of issues that by today's standards would be non events. In a far less desperate time, you're generation barely made it to the airport. You are not even close to the hero you imagine you are. Your generation could not have handled this at all.

Btw: This guy can't take SS until 67. Since that's a full 50% of the rational in your post, does that change your mind at all? I think I already know the answer...


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[Dan Roman]

Dan: As I have said before, all anyone has to do is open Flying the Line and start reading any page. Throughout that book your generation fumbles and fights through all sorts of issues that by today's standards would be non events. In a far less desperate time, you're generation barely made it to the airport. You are not even close to the hero you imagine you are. Your generation could not have handled this at all.

Btw: This guy can't take SS until 67. Since that's a full 50% of the argue net you made in your post, does that change your mind at all? I think I already know the answer...


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Never heard anything about the min. age for SS being raised to 67? It increases then, but far as I know it's still 62. But if it had been increased to 67 I would say all the more important to allow someone to work till they are 65.

Anyone that thinks lumping any one generation as all good or all bad always misses the fact that their are good people from every generation. Angry unhappy people always define themselves with their opinions more than the people they are throwing stones at.

 

[Flopgut]

Never heard anything about the min. age for SS being raised to 67? It increases then, but far as I know it's still 62. But if it had been increased to 67 I would say all the more important to allow someone to work till they are 65.

Anyone that thinks lumping any one generation as all good or all bad always misses the fact that their are good people from every generation. Angry unhappy people always define themselves with their opinions more than the people they are throwing stones at.

Your second paragraph: blah, blah, blah.

No surprise, you missed my main point. SS was age 62 for today's retirees, so if the age had stayed 60 they would have waited two years for SS. This guy can't get it until 67. So he is still going to wait 2 years. Do you think it's fair that your generation works 3 years past SS age while he still waits 2 years? (Of course I'm sure you do) What I'm saying is this guy deserves his upgrade so he can be ready to retire. You old guys have had enough relief. You don't reach retirement by simply working longer.


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[Dan Roman]

Yes I did miss your point. Your saying some guy retires at 65 and he has to wait till he is 67 to start collecting SS?

 

[Flopgut]

Yes I did miss your point. Your saying some guy retires at 65 and he has to wait till he is 67 to start collecting SS?

Yes. What solution would you propose? Increase retirement age I'm guessing? How many times do we do that before we reach a point where all captains are very old? Especially the real senior ones? That can't be the answer. Who's going to want to do this job? The profession will look like our current FA at United. You can't do a fun trip until age 75. Let alone get paid for one. It's not going to work.


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[Dan Roman]

Flopgut, dude, you can collect SS anytime you want after 62. IF you wait till 67 it will be a little higher is all. But you can start collecting it anytime you want after 62.

 

[Flopgut]

So reduced SS is not a problem for everybody else. Got it.

Apples to apples comparison is what I'm talking about. He takes it for two, you guys bank it for 3. You don't see a difference? Unless you're making your point, it's inconsequential?


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[Dan Roman]

I'm still trying to figure out how you think someone has to wait till 67 to collect SS or how you could think that the age 65 rule isn't more fair because it at least allows someone to fly till they can collect SS. Also Medicare for those airlines that don't pay for medical when you retire.
Interesting with the new retirement age 65 it seems like a lot more go out early by choice, 62 is a common age, but the bottom line is, I'm guessing more go out between 60 to 65 then use to go out between 55 to 60. Not only do the younger pilots have DC plans that can't be taken from them and the power of compound interest on their side, but they may benefit from a higher rate of early retirements taken by the 60 to 65 pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

Interesting with the new retirement age 65 it seems like a lot more go out early. 62 is a common age, but the bottom line is, I'm guessing more go out between 60 to 65 then use to go out between 55 to 60. Not only do the younger pilots have DC plans that can't be taken from them and the power of compound interest on their side, but they may benefit from a higher rate of early retirements taken by the 60 to 65 pilots.

I have no idea what you're talking about with that statement. We [CAL] have literally almost had more pilots die than retire since 65. Way more pilots left before when the age was 60. Despite all the hype, I haven't witnessed one pilot leave at 62, like so many of them said they wanted and thought was fair at the time.




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[bizicmo]

I'm still trying to figure out how you think someone has to wait till 67 to collect SS or how you could think that the age 65 rule isn't more fair because it at least allows someone to fly till they can collect SS. Also Medicare for those airlines that don't pay for medical when you retire.
Interesting with the new retirement age 65 it seems like a lot more go out early by choice, 62 is a common age, but the bottom line is, I'm guessing more go out between 60 to 65 then use to go out between 55 to 60. Not only do the younger pilots have DC plans that can't be taken from them and the power of compound interest on their side, but they may benefit from a higher rate of early retirements taken by the 60 to 65 pilots.

The power of interest, all 0.0001% apr these days.

 

[Dan Roman]

I can't speak for CO but at HA my statement stands. You have had a lot a pilots suffer a lot of career trama at CO and spent a long time getting screwed, they made horrible wages in the. 80's and 90's and as I remember they didn't 't get a retirement restarted till the mid 90's. So I guess that makes sense.

 

[Dan Roman]

The power of interest, all 0.0001% apr these days.

Stick it in good mutual fund and forget about it.

 

[Flopgut]

Dan: Did the Akaka Bill ever get passed? The pre 65 effort to get full PBGC benefits for retired pilots who didn't make the cutoff.


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[Dan Roman]

I've got cancer right now; already had an operation and am waiting on radiation therapy. Odds are good that I'll fully recover and fly again. My wife's classified as a wounded warrior due to injuries in Iraq and is undergoing Medical Evaluation Board where she will either be medically retired from the Air Force or separated without retirement. She will not be able to work in the civilian world due to her injuries. I have to help her get dressed and undressed daily.

?

Andy, with all due respect you are making a point why the opportunity to fly to 65 was the right thing to do. As your post points out, anything can happen to anybody at anytime. In the course of a career no one is immune from bad luck that can devastate their life or finances. Many many really good people need to work longer for 1000's of various reasons. Good on you that you can go out at 60. (Unless you want to be pathologically hypocritical, which I don't think you are) but really difficult things can happen to anyone. Your challenges should open your eyes that their is lot more important things the a couple extra years of seniority and should put in perspective that their are plenty of pilots that aren't "guilty of poor planning and should have known better".
I mean really, elsewhere on here we've got some guy who didn't 't upgrade at SWA after 7 years screaming he is a victim when 1000's of upper 50's pilots have been totally screwed and many of them have stories more tragic than yours. But the simple fact is life's full of ups and downs and age 65 helps a lot more people than it hurts. It just created more opportunity for more pilots to better deal with whatever life throws at them.

Godspeed and best of luck to you and your wife.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan: Did the Akaka Bill ever get passed? The pre 65 effort to get full PBGC benefits for retired pilots who didn't make the cutoff.


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Yes, but how sad is that to be reduced to PBGC mins even if he managed to get it a little higher.
BTW age 65 helped a lot of AQ folks that came here after getting raked over the coals. They came to HA and pilots in their fifties are getting a 15% DC matching and the ability to max out a 401k. They can go to 65 and make up much of what was stolen from them at no fault of their own.
AQ was a very sad deal, the older ones that came here are going to be fine thanks to age 65 and our 15% DC as well as a 401k. Without it they would have been hurting.

 

[Flopgut]

Uh, yeah I'm having a hard time understanding you. Probably my fault on this issue: The Akaka Bill was to get already retired pilots who's pensions went to the PBGC a full 47k and change instead of the 28k for retiring early. Those retired pilots are still stuck at 28k, correct? The Akaka legislation went unfulfilled.

You have a strange view on this career IMHO. You really don't have any regard for another pilots desire to see a career advance, do you?

This "no fault of their own" stuff I don't get. It's everyone's responsibility to have a plan. CAL pilots made what they made in the 80s and 90s. I know a lot of pilots who crossed and they've done pretty well. The guys who are hurting are the ones who spent all their time dreaming about what someone else made at another airline. Idk. Guys like you are a real problem. You don't see it and you never will.


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[Andy]

Andy, with all due respect you are making a point why the opportunity to fly to 65 was the right thing to do. As your post points out, anything can happen to anybody at anytime. In the course of a career no one is immune from bad luck that can devastate their life or finances. Many many really good people need to work longer for 1000's of various reasons. Good on you that you can go out at 60. (Unless you want to be pathologically hypocritical, which I don't think you are) but really difficult things can happen to anyone. Your challenges should open your eyes that their is lot more important things the a couple extra years of seniority and should put in perspective that their are plenty of pilots that aren't "guilty of poor planning and should have known better".
I mean really, elsewhere on here we've got some guy who didn't 't upgrade at SWA after 7 years screaming he is a victim when 1000's of upper 50's pilots have been totally screwed and many of them have stories more tragic than yours. But the simple fact is life's full of ups and downs and age 65 helps a lot more people than it hurts. It just created more opportunity for more pilots to better deal with whatever life throws at them.

Godspeed and best of luck to you and your wife.

Dan, any airline pilot in the last 50 years that was or is counting on a defined benefit plan is dumber than a box of rocks. Pull up a list of defunct airlines. Do a google search of that airline adding 'PBGC'. Note that all of those defined benefit plans got taken over by the PBGC.

A pilot losing his defined benefit plan to the PBGC is NOT something new that happened after 9/11; it's happened for a very long time.

Any airline pilot who wasn't/isn't maxing out his IRA and setting aside a minimum of an additional 10% of their salary is not very bright and is one of the poorest excuses for raising the retirement age that I've ever heard.

Every pilot out there should know that (s)he needs to live well below their current income level because no one is immune to having something bad happen to them. I don't excuse any pilot for not saving a large percentage of their income until they have a net worth in excess of $1 million. And in today's low interest environment, that number needs to be closer to $2 million net worth. Until then, they shouldn't be buying planes, boats, motorcycles, second houses, second wives, or any other toys. It's that simple.
In this business, one bad CEO and senior management can wreck an airline. If a second bad management team follows, the company will usually find itself in chapter 11. A third bad management team in a row and it's chapter 7. All of that can happen to ANY airline in less than a decade.

 

[Dan Roman]

Well as my posts indicate, I know lots of AQ pilots that got a second chance and are going to have a decent retirement that would not have been possible with out the change to 65. No debate there. I also see we're "your side" of the argument is being made with examples of a SWA guy upset because he didn't upgrade at 7 years. I'm blown away by that one. So yes, a couple years of slower progression balanced out by the chance to work more if they want hardly seems as serious to me as a guy 60 years old being forced out of work with a gutted pension and not being old enough to collect SS.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, any airline pilot in the last 50 years that was or is counting on a defined benefit plan is dumber than a box of rocks. Pull up a list of defunct airlines. Do a google search of that airline adding 'PBGC'. Note that all of those defined benefit plans got taken over by the PBGC.

A pilot losing his defined benefit plan to the PBGC is NOT something new that happened after 9/11; it's happened for a very long time.

Any airline pilot who wasn't/isn't maxing out his IRA and setting aside a minimum of an additional 10% of their salary is not very bright and is one of the poorest excuses for raising the retirement age that I've ever heard.

Every pilot out there should know that (s)he needs to live well below their current income level because no one is immune to having something bad happen to them. I don't excuse any pilot for not saving a large percentage of their income until they have a net worth in excess of $1 million. And in today's low interest environment, that number needs to be closer to $2 million net worth. Until then, they shouldn't be buying planes, boats, motorcycles, second houses, second wives, or any other toys. It's that simple.
In this business, one bad CEO and senior management can wreck an airline. If a second bad management team follows, the company will usually find itself in chapter 11. A third bad management team in a row and it's chapter 7. All of that can happen to ANY airline in less than a decade.

Your preaching to the choir about saving as much as possible in a DC plan no matter who you work for. But it's a little high and mighty ( pun intended) to think anyone's portfolio can accept the loss of an A plan and not feel it. That's a huge hit and flying to 65 is a totally understandable response.
Pretty harsh judgement of your fellow pilots. Parents like to do things like pay for college, weddings or whatever. What if you have a child and they want to go to graduate school? Kind of nice to be in a position to help them. What if you have a child that has a head injury...again you want to be there for them.
Everyone has their own story, an extra 5 years to be productive in our chosen career is an opportunity for everyone.

 

[Twotter Driver]

I've been at CAL for 8 years now. During this time period I can recall 3 inflight deaths, 4 inflight heart attacks( survived) requiring diversion, and 5 deaths while on a layover. One guy died in the line at customs in sjo (this same guy got revived in the jetway in EWR only 2 years prior after suffering a major heart attack, he was 62 when he passed. Of the inflight deaths, the pilots ages were 59, 61, and 63(almost 64). Food for thought.

 

[Flopgut]

Dan: DC plans do not favor younger pilots. They favor all pilots equally. I know you have a hard time with that because to you "equal" is not fair. You don't feel you're getting your fair share if a young guy isn't taking a hit. If you care to disagree with that just consider your own account of how things are working out for the AQ pilots.

Funny thing about grad school and weddings for kids: those things keep marching on. Most guys I know at that stage of their life are doing it on FO pay. Just like this kid you have such contempt for with his welder father. We're talking about SWA pay here. Imagine what he could do for him with that money. Instead he can't move up and windows of opportunity will be missed. So a wrinkly old bastard doesn't have to sell his toys.

Anyway, I'm sure no one is going to change your mind. Just keep this in the front of it: it's over. Retirements have started again. It won't change again. Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Tell your friends.


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[densoo]

I've been at CAL for 8 years now. During this time period I can recall 3 inflight deaths, 4 inflight heart attacks( survived) requiring diversion, and 5 deaths while on a layover. One guy died in the line at customs in sjo (this same guy got revived in the jetway in EWR only 2 years prior after suffering a major heart attack, he was 62 when he passed. Of the inflight deaths, the pilots ages were 59, 61, and 63(almost 64). Food for thought.

This kind of data, more than anything else, could stop the age 67 consideration.