United Pilot Dies After Inflight Heart Attack

[Andy]

You and others have brought this up before and it's really a ridiculous point. I needed to work when I was forced to "retire."

AGAIN, you flew as a 777 captain for SIX YEARS after 9/11 AND got several hundred thousand dollars in bond money when United emerged from bankruptcy. You didn't NEED to work. You needed to learn how to stop pissing away money.

Or you're simply lying about being impoverished; which is a likely possibility. You have the nerve to lie that you were collecting food stamps after retirement; your lack of morality knows no bounds. Your posts are so full of lies that it's incredible that anyone here believes a single word you write.

Did you consider that maybe draconian work rules came with their version of PBS Mr. Yeager? Work under that contract for a year and lets see how you "adapt".

The big problem with LCAL is the contract means nothing; the paper it's written on is worthless. Management and other employees violate the contract without a second thought. Those pilots who try to get the contract enforced find near zero help from CALALPA; trying to get them to file a grievance is a Sisyphean task.

 

[waveflyer]

And yet, as Asiana proved, these highly fit, medically superior pilots managed to ramp strike at SFO!!!

This is what I was thinking-^^

One of my big issues with the age change is the likelihood of increased ridiculousness to the medical process - I definitely don't lobby for more of that and I'm fitter than most and hope most of us have visited a longevity center and gotten a COMPLETE work up - your normal checkup isn't adequate for life- but I don't want my livelihood linked to it.
See the difference- ?

 

[Andy]

I saw the stat somewhere, but apparently, if you are predisposed to an early heart condition, it will most likely show up before you are 60. If you make it to 60 than your chances of a sudden heart attack go down for awhile.
Obviously lifestyle is the biggest factor though.

Dan, I noticed that you didn't post a link. It seemed unlikely that the incidence of heart attacks decreases with age so I looked around for a reference. Here it is: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/heart-attack-statistics-by-age.html

Pertinent portion:
The incident rate of heart attacks per 10,000 people is around 190 in people who are over 85 years of age,
around 117 for those between 75-84 years of age,
66 for those between 65 and 74 years of age,
37 for those between 55 and 64 and
18 for people between 45 and 54.


The incidence of heart attacks almost doubles every ten years. I'd wager that the data was broken out in single year increments, it would indicate that incidence of heart attacks increases every year.

So your chance of heart attacks above 60 decreasing for a while isn't based on facts or statistics.

 

[flyboyike]

PBS? Really?? AWA has had PBS for over 13 years and no one has so much as crapped their pants in the seat, much less died. I think you have a problem with change. Being unable to adapt to changing conditions is a lousy character trait in a pilot.

One of the main paradoxes of the aviator personality is that we are very capable to adapt to changing conditions while flying, but are just as very INcapable to adapt to changes in life.

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan, I noticed that you didn't post a link. It seemed unlikely that the incidence of heart attacks decreases with age so I looked around for a reference. Here it is: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/heart-attack-statistics-by-age.html

Pertinent portion:
The incident rate of heart attacks per 10,000 people is around 190 in people who are over 85 years of age,
around 117 for those between 75-84 years of age,
66 for those between 65 and 74 years of age,
37 for those between 55 and 64 and
18 for people between 45 and 54.


The incidence of heart attacks almost doubles every ten years. I'd wager that the data was broken out in single year increments, it would indicate that incidence of heart attacks increases every year.

So your chance of heart attacks above 60 decreasing for a while isn't based on facts or statistics.

Your stats miss one very important point. There are two heart attack scenario's , one, that's a result of known heart disease or someone who is ill with all sorts of maladies that would keep them from passing a physical. Of course the older we get the more likely we are to get sick and die, often of a heart attack. As your stats support this accelerates in your 70's, or 60's if you have led an unhealthy lifestyle of hard partying, smoking, junk food and no excersize. The other, what we are talking about here is , someone seemingly healthy, who can pass an FAA physical but has an undetected problem that results in an unexpected heart attack. It's that scenario that I am talking about, if you have a problem that makes you vulnerable to an early heart attack, it generally shows up before 60.

Your stats did not differentiate between the two.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undauntedflyer could have been given another 30 years of flying but he'd still die broke.

Actually, I invested heavily in the market after it crashed with what little cash I had, taking a home equity loan. As a result, I'm not on Food Stamps or any other government assistance at this time, except PBGC, Social Security and Medicare. My cars are old, both with 150,000+ miles and I'm planeless; but, I get along. The only toy I have is a motorcycle. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me as I now have all I need. I've enjoyed my 6+ years since retirement. Best of all, I've taken many long summer road trips with my college age son, camping every night. I also got to work with my older son flying co-pilot for him in a Falcon 10. That airplane is like a little rocketship, and I had the honor of serving as Chairman of the Board at a fairly large GA airport.

Yes, I have had good fortune since my retirement, but did the pilots who were forced to retire at age-60 get the shaft? Yes, of course they did. I hear of and meet many retired pilots who barely exist financially on account of past divorces, medical issues, and other problems, such as bad investments in UAL stock before it crashed. Those pilots really needed to work 5 more years and many of you will too for whatever reasons or the same reasons; but, that''s the way it was and now that great wrong has been corrected, no thanks to the Union that I and so many other paid so much to support.

I hope the "Get out of my Seat" crowd will enjoy the new opportunity that's now part of their career: Retire early or work 5 extra years. What a great and progressive change. BTW, have you noticed that practically no one retires at age 60. I guess they all want to continue flying, something the "get out of my seat" crowd will mostly all do too. Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has? I doubt it.

I love you all, enjoy your careers and the choices you now have, no thanks to your union.

 

[flyboyike]

Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has?

If it takes to age 60 just to make Captain, I'm not interested. I'll be long gone by then.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If it takes to age 60 just to make Captain, I'm not interested. I'll be long gone by then.

I don't understand your post, this is an up and down cyclical business. Where would you go if you're over age 50 now and at the bottom of the seniority list as some of the furloughees are now? You would say right there to finally make it to the position you've waited for.

 

[flyboyike]

I don't understand your post, this is an up and down cyclical business. Where would you go if you're over age 50 now and at the bottom of the seniority list as some of the furloughees are now? You would say right there to finally make it to the position you've waited for.

If I'm 50 and at the bottom of the seniority list, I'll go do something else. I have other skills, I'm not helpless. It's hard enough to be at the bottom(again) at 38, I sure as hell am not doing it at 50.

 

[Mamma]

I hope the "Get out of my Seat" crowd will enjoy the new opportunity that's now part of their career: Retire early or work 5 extra years. What a great and progressive change. BTW, have you noticed that practically no one retires at age 60. I guess they all want to continue flying, something the "get out of my seat" crowd will mostly all do too. Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has? I doubt it.

I love you all, enjoy your careers and the choices you now have, no thanks to your union.

Here's the thing Undaunted, you KNEW from the day you started that age 60 was the law of the land. You planned for it, your compensation reflected it and you adjusted your life knowing this would happen like every pilot did for decades before. You expected those above you to retire and "get out of your seat" so you could advance and provide for your family in your later years. So now, your generation pushed through age 65 and pulled up the ladder on those behind you with young kids, mortgages and looming college bills. That is life in the industry. Nobody except those hired after the 5 years of stagnation and those that pushed on to age 65 as captains won. Thousands were stranded in the regionals, the right seat, furloughed or never hired because of this decision. For you to be so righteous as to not recognize this is unbelievable. To call them loudmouths and idiots after they lost big is amazing. Time value of money. You advanced to captain based on guys leaving at age 60.

Believe it or not, if I could retire tomorrow I would. My wife and I have a retirement plan of age 55. Age 55 to have the option to retire and have a good life. I will probably go to age 60 if my pension is still intact but I doubt it will be so 55 it most likely is. I found this thing called a life and a budget and it is WAY more fun than working.

Here is the thing that you alluded to discovering....there is a life outside of flying!!!! You don't have to define yourself as being a pilot!! You can be a family man riding your motorcycle with your son camping around the country and flying co-pilot with your other son on the Falcon 10. BoD of an airport! Wow! It sounds like getting retired from the airline business was the best thing that ever happened to you. You will cherish these moments 100X more than flying a 777 across the pond with a bunch of strangers to get a few more bucks. On your deathbed you will look back and thank the heavens that you were forced to retire at age 60 vs trudging along in the trenches for 5 more years missing everything. I am a bit younger but after many life lessons I have learned that money is not everything and defining myself as a pilot is the wrong thing to do. I am a family man first and I can live very comfortably on a lot less than I used to think. From your stories it sounds like you have found the same but are too stubborn to admit it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If I'm 50 and at the bottom of the seniority list, I'll go do something else. I have other skills, I'm not helpless. It's hard enough to be at the bottom(again) at 38, I sure as hell am not doing it at 50.

Until you hear the rumor, "They're ramping up at the schoolhouse to train 50 a month indefinitely" And that's as long as you'll hang around - indefinitely.

There are 3 types of pilots when it comes to this: 1) those who wait it out indefinitely 2) those who jump ship for "the next Southwest" and 3) those who actually leave the profession only to become mediocre cogs in another wheel somewhere else.

 

[flyboyike]

There are 3 types of pilots when it comes to this: 1) those who wait it out indefinitely 2) those who jump ship for "the next Southwest" and 3) those who actually leave the profession only to become mediocre cogs in another wheel somewhere else.

4) those who did things before aviation and will do again after.

 

[Andy]

Your stats miss one very important point. There are two heart attack scenario's , one, that's a result of known heart disease or someone who is ill with all sorts of maladies that would keep them from passing a physical. Of course the older we get the more likely we are to get sick and die, often of a heart attack. As your stats support this accelerates in your 70's, or 60's if you have led an unhealthy lifestyle of hard partying, smoking, junk food and no excersize. The other, what we are talking about here is , someone seemingly healthy, who can pass an FAA physical but has an undetected problem that results in an unexpected heart attack. It's that scenario that I am talking about, if you have a problem that makes you vulnerable to an early heart attack, it generally shows up before 60.

Your stats did not differentiate between the two.

Dan, you offer no references or stats to support your argument. I posted stats that prove you are wrong. It's fine to engage in this banter, but you're simply trying to make people believe something that has no data to support it. I'm sure that you could also make a rational argument that the sun revolves around the earth.

I read a lot of made up stuff on the internet. Most of it by snake oil salesmen who try to sell their tripe as the gospel truth. But they're almost always doing it for their own personal gain. Here's a great example; I love this one:
2007: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7139797.stm
Professor Wieslaw Maslowski stated that the Arctic would be 'ice free' in the summer by 2013.
2013: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...LING-Return-Arctic-ice-cap-grows-29-year.html

I see no difference in your argument than Professor Maslowski's 'ice free Arctic by summer 2013' argument. He was quite obviously wrong and you provide no data to back up your claim. Why should anyone believe you when the data CLEARLY indicates that heart attacks increase with age; they do not spike and then decline.

 

[Capn Butthead]

This is one of the best posts I've seen that put the reality of age 60 in perspective. I have yet to see any anti age 65 post that says anything other than than how upset they are that their career path encountered a speed bump (like whose hasn't in this line of work) when in fact they also received an extra 5 years of earning potential. The anti 65 crew has no problem with a pilot having his pension stolen and being forced out with no time to make it up, yet somehow they think they are the victims when in fact they will get the benefit of 5 extra years if they want to. But the worst is the morons combining arrogance and ignorance to come up with the comment that those guys should have "planned" better. Like pilots 20 years ago should have predicted their pensions would have disappeared and are irresponsible for not funding an adequate retirement on the side.

I've also been on strike, through 2 bankruptcies, busted my ass to get where I'm at. I grew up in Mississippi from a family where most people didn't finish high school. My dad never saw me play one baseball game growing up because he worked 80 hours as a welder to save money to help whatever way he could to help me go to college. I also was on food stamps and even homeless for a 8 week period. In college (got a full ride scholarship) I played baseball and busted my ass in 2 jobs to pay for my flight training. In my airline, I paid my dues also. I also have an ALPA battle star. So what you're saying is because I'm only 36 I should shut up and deal with it? I say HELL no! I am just entitled to my upgrade as the next person. I've been at my major airline for 9 years. I should've upgraded 2 years ago. Yet I fly with guys who are 63 who are talking about their new boat or new house on the lake. I am blessed to be at a great airline making good pay. But I should be making more as a captain...helping the same dad who busted his ass to get me out of hell and to help me succeed! So...are there guys who have been screwed out there? Yes! But don't be so self centered to think that just because we are younger we aren't entitled to what we deserve. That is such a selfish and elitist thing to say.

 

[Andy]

Actually, I invested heavily in the market after it crashed with what little cash I had, taking a home equity loan.

LITTLE CASH YOU HAD???? WTF did you do with the several hundred thousand dollars of bond money you were handed? How much of your 777 captain pay did you bank during the more than six years you worked post-9/11????

As a result, I'm not on Food Stamps or any other government assistance at this time, except PBGC, Social Security and Medicare. My cars are old, both with 150,000+ miles and I'm planeless; but, I get along. The only toy I have is a motorcycle. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me as I now have all I need.

Are you serious? You came on here, claiming that you were on food stamps! YOU WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL SORRY FOR YOU.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. EVERYONE has bad things happen in their lives. I was furloughed for almost 8 years. And that's not even close to the worst thing that's happened in my life. I lived well below my means and built a small fortune. Still, not something bad in my life.

I've got cancer right now; already had an operation and am waiting on radiation therapy. Odds are good that I'll fully recover and fly again. My wife's classified as a wounded warrior due to injuries in Iraq and is undergoing Medical Evaluation Board where she will either be medically retired from the Air Force or separated without retirement. She will not be able to work in the civilian world due to her injuries. I have to help her get dressed and undressed daily.

But I'm sure as he!! not going to cry about what's happened to us; everyone gets a pile of feces dumped on their doorsteps during their lives. My wife and I consider ourselves blessed in that we have each other. To read your constant whining makes me want to vomit. You're one of the biggest lying crybabies I've ever heard of.

Now here's the bottom line, Allan, your financial problems are ENTIRELY your fault. You were handed more money in a single lump sum when UAL emerged from bankruptcy than most people save in their lifetimes. You had another 6 years to stash away most of your salary for retirement. But you did none of that. You continued to own two airplanes and assorted other toys, ignoring the fact that you would be mandatorily retired in December 2007.

Yes, I have had good fortune since my retirement, but did the pilots who were forced to retire at age-60 get the shaft? Yes, of course they did. I hear of and meet many retired pilots who barely exist financially on account of past divorces, medical issues, and other problems, such as bad investments in UAL stock before it crashed. Those pilots really needed to work 5 more years and many of you will too for whatever reasons or the same reasons; but, that''s the way it was and now that great wrong has been corrected, no thanks to the Union that I and so many other paid so much to support.

I hope the "Get out of my Seat" crowd will enjoy the new opportunity that's now part of their career: Retire early or work 5 extra years. What a great and progressive change. BTW, have you noticed that practically no one retires at age 60. I guess they all want to continue flying, something the "get out of my seat" crowd will mostly all do too. Yes, I know there are a few loud mouths here on FI, some who are junior, who say they will retire at 60, I call that pure BS. Does anyone think a pilot who has just reached his goal of flying captain, is finally making the big money, will quit then, no matter how much money he has? I doubt it.

I love you all, enjoy your careers and the choices you now have, no thanks to your union.

Yep, it's everyone else's fault. It's the union's fault. It's the 'get out of my seat' crowd's fault.

It's never the idiot who pissed away every dime they earned's fault. No, they're the victim. Victim of being too stupid to understand that you need to save for retirement and not count on any single source of funds. And any airline pilot who's been in this business over the last 60 years has seen more pilots lose their retirements than collect them. Allan, are you really stupid enough to think that what happened to the Pan Am, Eastern, Transamerica, Braniff, Frontier and many other airline pilots couldn't possibly happen to you as a United pilot? If so, just admit/write that you're a very stupid idiot who is entirely at fault for your current financial misfortunes.

I spend time with wounded warriors daily who have lost limbs and are more grateful for everything that's happened in their lives than you. You just want to throw pity parties for yourself. How about you do us all a favor and throw yourself a pity party while you clean some firearms?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Here's the thing Undaunted, you KNEW from the day you started that age 60 was the law of the land. You planned for it, your compensation reflected it and you adjusted your life knowing this would happen like every pilot did for decades before. You expected those above you to retire and "get out of your seat" so you could advance and provide for your family in your later years. So now, your generation pushed through age 65 and pulled up the ladder on those behind you with young kids, mortgages and looming college bills. That is life in the industry. Nobody except those hired after the 5 years of stagnation and those that pushed on to age 65 as captains won. Thousands were stranded in the regionals, the right seat, furloughed or never hired because of this decision. For you to be so righteous as to not recognize this is unbelievable. To call them loudmouths and idiots after they lost big is amazing. Time value of money. You advanced to captain based on guys leaving at age 60.

Believe it or not, if I could retire tomorrow I would. My wife and I have a retirement plan of age 55. Age 55 to have the option to retire and have a good life. I will probably go to age 60 if my pension is still intact but I doubt it will be so 55 it most likely is. I found this thing called a life and a budget and it is WAY more fun than working.

Here is the thing that you alluded to discovering....there is a life outside of flying!!!! You don't have to define yourself as being a pilot!! You can be a family man riding your motorcycle with your son camping around the country and flying co-pilot with your other son on the Falcon 10. BoD of an airport! Wow! It sounds like getting retired from the airline business was the best thing that ever happened to you. You will cherish these moments 100X more than flying a 777 across the pond with a bunch of strangers to get a few more bucks. On your deathbed you will look back and thank the heavens that you were forced to retire at age 60 vs trudging along in the trenches for 5 more years missing everything. I am a bit younger but after many life lessons I have learned that money is not everything and defining myself as a pilot is the wrong thing to do. I am a family man first and I can live very comfortably on a lot less than I used to think. From your stories it sounds like you have found the same but are too stubborn to admit it.

Congratulations on your views. They sound good but in reality what you say about early retirement is what nearly 100% of the line pilots say too; UNTIL, they get to age 59. Then those views seem to change as a matter of fact. In other words, they nearly all say they are going to retire early, but the facts are that those same people, almost all, change their mind. In the 5 years since the age changed to 65, only a handful of pilots retired before age 65, while nearly all others are choosing to go all the way to age 65.

I recommend that everyone retire at age 60 or earlier if they so choose to enjoy their family, as I have, but to be forced to retire is wrong. I happen to have had an 18 year old son at home, except when he is at college, when I turned 60 and my other two children lived nearby, but for most people age 60, their children are well on with their lives living who knows where, or those pilots may be a divorced or a widower and/or short on cash too. Those people have a right to work, not to be forced to retire to just make room for the "get-out-of-my-seat" crowd.

FYI, I will also comment:, When I was hired in '69, most everyone thought the age 60 rule would be gone in a few years as ALPA was against it. That all changed during the recessions of '79, when the F/E's were given an equal vote in the pilot union. Naturally that meant that 2/3s of the union was in a junior position, F/O or S/O, and the direction changed to building a large retirement package so the age-60 rule was a good thing and no one had an issue with it. Of course that new change in direction should have changed back when the retirement pensions were lost and pilots needed to work in order to provide for themselves and their family. There were no more pensions so ALPA should have gone back to its original position on age 60.

 

[Mamma]

Your facts are not facts but opinion. My airline, with a fully funded A Plan has plenty of geezers who won't leave. All got to the Capt seat in about 2-4 years and have been riding it for over 20 years. Pure greed. But, on the flip side, we also have many that are hanging it up at 60 and younger. Just flew with a 29.5 yr on property captain who is hanging it up at 58. This capt is disgusted with the greed of her peers and wants to go have a life. One fact you can't claim....you've never flown with a 64 year old guy on a long day of up and downs.
It's embarrassing for some as they just wear out and have to sleep a portion of the trip. Still, I'm glad you got to finally got to have a rewarding life after United but sad you are too stubborn to realize it. Count your blessings.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I've got cancer right now; already had an operation and am waiting on radiation therapy. Odds are good that I'll fully recover and fly again. My wife's classified as a wounded warrior due to injuries in Iraq and is undergoing Medical Evaluation Board where she will either be medically retired from the Air Force or separated without retirement. She will not be able to work in the civilian world due to her injuries. I have to help her get dressed and undressed daily.

But I'm sure as he!! not going to cry about what's happened to us; everyone gets a pile of feces dumped on their doorsteps during their lives. My wife and I consider ourselves blessed in that we have each other. To read your constant whining makes me want to vomit. You're one of the biggest lying crybabies I've ever heard of.

Sorry to hear of you and your wife's health situation, I'm glad to hear that you have a good prognosis. How do you know that I don't have a much greater health issue that I don't talk about because I don't want pity. You say that I whine all the time and want pity, really? Why have you mentioned this now, I never mentioned my health situation which I can assure you is much worse.

My FI issue is the age 60/65 issue and those who have felt they had a right to throw their grandparents out of their house and into the street, just because it's the grand-kids turn and they want a house.

I'm sorry to learn of your health issues, may God be with you and your wife in your recovery.

 

[Dan Roman]

OK guys time out. you are both battling health issues. The last thing you need is raising your blood pressure over an internet debate. Andy, I'm sure you are aware there is a correlation between stress, your immune system and cancer cells. Take care of yourself and worry about the things you do have control over.
BTW, your both UAL. My roots go deep there. My Dad flew for UAL from 1946 to 1979. Interesting perspective FWIW. He retired as a very senior 727 Captain making $80,000 a year. His retirement was $40,000. Good money then, he died at 89. 29 years later $40,000 was not a lot of money. The moral is about inflation, he had a 32 year career and a 29 year retirement. Healthy and driving a car (quite well I might add) till the day he died, but had my parents not had real estate too, they would have been hurting if they depended on just the retirement plan.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

One fact you can't claim....you've never flown with a 64 year old guy on a long day of up and downs.
It's embarrassing for some as they just wear out and have to sleep a portion of the trip. Count your blessings.

Yes, I can imagine some of the oldest pilots should really have retired at 60 or before. I even remember some of the 58 & 59 year olds that barely made it to age 60, but that was when most pilots smoked. Yes, when I first started pilots smoked, even in the cockpit. And I'm told that in the early '60's, it was the exception for a pilot not to smoke and have a cigarette in the cockpit most every leg.