United career progression

[Andy]

The fact is that I have never claimed to have served in the military.

Those of us who have been on FI for a while remember you trying to pawn yourself off as a Vietnam veteran on this board. It wasn't until you were called on it that you admitted that you've never served in the military.
I noticed that you also claim on another website to have founded a university aerobatics team. Funny, the team's written history has a different name associated with the founding of the team.

I guess I made it into my airline career the hard way, like most of those being hired now and especially those currently flying for the Regionals.[/quote]

UF, you were hired at United when you were 22 years old. Would you care to elaborate how you made your career the 'hard way?'
Being a CFI during the summers in Chicago while going to college? Oh yeah, that was really hard.

I just have no interest in flying any more 16-hour legs, then feeling like a zombie for days, only to do it all over again in three days.

Ah, yes. That reminds me of the points that I made about the mental and physiological effects of aging and why I opposed a change to age 65. Thanks for lowering safety margins in the industry.

UF, your negative comments about United need to carry the disclaimer that you're still bitter about retiring at age 60 with a single digit line number, and are now bitter that you aren't still a senior captain, bidding the ORD-HNL route. I do, however, find it quite humorous that you're railing on United management for not ordering more aircraft when the economy's going into a recession - talk about being oblivious to the financial side of the business.
UF, that was a total cheap shot taken at United's training. It may not be the top training course out there, but it's pretty darned good.
The biggest problem with United is that the senior pilots at United trashed the contract for junior pilots while perserving QOL to the maximum extent for senior pilots.
The way that pension settlement was handled by UAL-ALPA is a perfect example. It was shameful watching the senior pilots stacking it so that they received maximum payment while giving retirees zero and the junior pilots crumbs. Compare the settlement with Northwest and Delta. Greed of the highest order.

Is United the best place to work? No; that's why I'm still on mil leave. Unfortunately, it's not just United's management; the senior pilots at United share a lot of the blame for the plight of the junior pilot. I suppose it's the same as any other airline; greedy self-serving baby boomers - that greed just seems to be more amplified at United. I suppose it's due to the screening process used to hire pilots at United back in the 60s and 70s.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Those of us who have been on FI for a while remember you trying to pawn yourself off as a Vietnam veteran on this board. It wasn't until you were called on it that you admitted that you've never served in the military.
I noticed that you also claim on another website to have founded a university aerobatics team. Funny, the team's written history has a different name associated with the founding of the team.

Andy: The fact is that I have never ever claimed to be a military pilot. I was from the Vietnam era and I have said that the pilots who served in Vietnam were getting screwed on the age 60 rule, but that doesn't say that I have made a claim to have been a military pilot who served in Vietnam. As I have said before, most everyone from that generation did everything in their power to avoid service in that unfortunate war, including our last two presidents. The only presidential candidate's who actually served in harm's way in Vietnam, Gore and Kerry got screwed over like most of the Vietnam vets.

Regarding the Aerobatic questions. It is fact that I was the founding father of the entire IAC collegiate aerobatic program while serving as Chairman of that IAC program for 3-years. I personally wrote all the rules and brought the program on-line for IAC with the approval of the IAC Board. I am most proud of my contribution to that most worthwhile program. So no matter what you may have read, it was simply incomplete in whatever it said. And the program at SIU could not have happened without my involvement in that team. The SIU aerobatic team is a great success story. These are the facts yet you want to discredit my work on this effort. I ask that you proceed with more caution before you make such reckless statements.

 

[pipe]

You know UF, I just don't think you're ever gonna get a "FAIR" shake around here again. That train left the station about 12-18 months ago. You may remember, you were the engineer.

You were just too selfish to ever be taken seriously. I've hear several stories from UAL guys that you've flown with about your penchant for "stretching the truth" (blimp Captain comes to mind, among others). That's what makes the Vietnam stuff difficult to swallow. You may not have said you were a military vet - you implied it. Remember when your kids were little? You'd have called that a lie in a second.

PIPE

 

[F/O]

UF is a proven liar. Why would anyone further believe anything he says? Glad he's gone. Boo-frickin-hoo...

 

[SoCentralRain]

I guess I made it into my airline career the hard way, like most of those being hired now and especially those currently flying for the Regionals.

Al:
C'mon! You cannot be serious. You think you made it into your airline career "the hard way"? You graduated from SIU in 1969 and was hired almost immediately afterward. How much total time did you have by then? How much turbine PIC did you have? How many type ratings did you have? It wasn't "the hard way", Al. It was timing, pure and simple. You were at the right place at the right time. But WITHOUT a trememdous amount of "time."

Now, timing wasn't on your side this past December. If it was, I think we'd be hearing an entirely different tune from you regarding your +37 year career with United.

Now UAL: Their training is fair to good. Not great, just fair to good. It could be great but everything is provided to the bare minimum and only scripted emergencies/irregularities are trained. Only the test is trained and tested, but that is the way it is because to do otherwise would result longer training time or more failures, which slows down the training, resulting in more crew required to operate the airline. It's all money. So while some may think their airline training is good, just think about whether you're really confident that you'll follow the electronic checklist exactly, just as you're suppose to, for all the emergencies/irregularities without missing an important note or direction to reference another checklist. So now do you really think the training was so great?

Again, Al, all you've known in your entire professional flying career has been UAL and your GA work. Have you been to Flight Safety or Simuflite? Have you trained at 2 other major airlines (like I have)? Ever done a type rating ride in the airplane, in actual, circling to land at 3 am? You wouldn't know by your limited perspective just how well United Airlines trains pilots compared to other places. So, quit being so uncharitable about your former employer and their training department.

Really, I just think it's bitterness on your part. You're bitter that your ego couldn't find a Hindenburg-sized hangar to tuck into before all the bullsh-t came raining down upon our industry. You're bitter that you never got to fly with your son in a UAL cockpit. You're bitter that you didn't realize he wouldn't qualify for that coveted internship with UAL because you didn't know how those internships were doled out at the time.

You should feel comfy waking in the same bed every morning. Feel comfy when you strap on your motorcycle. Feel comfy when you give someone their Private Certificate.

But I don't know if you'll be able to ever feel comfy about some of the capriciousness of this industry. That's all it is. There's no stability anymore. Not here at UAL. Not at Fedex. Not at Southwest. Not flying a Pt. 91 Challenger. Hell, not even flying in the military.

It's up to you to find your own peace. Good luck on that. Good luck to all of us.

SCR

 

[pipe]

Also, as far as the military being "the easy way" - try this one on for size.

If you're in a military aircraft with a civil equivalent, many of us have taken an ATP/type ride in the airplane with a Fed on the jumpseat. Pulling engines and the whole works.

UF, I have done thousands of single engine circles, engine failures on takeoff, partial flap landings, etc. -- in an actual transport category jet. This is true of most al of us -- how many have you done?

You know - I wish I'd have thought about this when you were spouting off about keeping experience in the cockpit.

By the way, yes I have done acro. Yes, I have taught at every level on the civilian side. Yes, I have done flight exams. Etc, etc, etc.

You did it the hard way. By that do you mean it was hard to keep a straight face?

PIPE

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF is a proven liar. Why would anyone further believe anything he says?

There is a big difference between saying something that a person believes to be true and something that is a lie, or even an embellishment to be humorous or sarcastic on occasion.

Yes I predicted the 50-year old age-60 rule would change before the end of 2006. Well it changed just before the end of 2007. The rule did change just as I said it would, only my timing was off by 1-year out of 50. Does that make me a liar on that account? I would not think so.

Since I have never claimed (or implied) that I was a Vietnam vet, does that make me a liar about my military service just because others don’t like my prediction or opinions on the age-60 rule. I would not think so.

Because I go to a bar with friends and say that I was a pilot on the Goodyear blimp and my colleagues all claim they are part of my crew when we were shot down over a bad neighborhood, landing on the 5th hole of a golf course. Does that make me a liar? I would not think so because that was obviously such an outrageous story no one could believe that, and certainly not in a bar. Is that what you call a liar, and would you call all of my crew liars too? I would not think so.

Now when ANDY says things or even implies things that are untrue about me, which he as on some issues such as my military service, and most recently regarding my work on the IAC collegiate aerobatic program, who is the liar?

 

[PCL_128]

UF, I don't know if you're a liar or not, and I really don't care. You are, however, a selfish piece of sh--, and the pilots of United are lucky to be rid of your geriatric ass.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You think you made it into your airline career "the hard way"?

There are two ways of getting flight time: paying for it yourself or having someone else pay for it. Personally, I had nothing at all and paid for all my flight time with student loans and my own work. I have heard it said that signing on the dotted line and letting the taxpayers pay for it is an easy way too. That was my reference to the hard way vs. the easy way. Now today, the hard (civilian) way is even harder than ever before, and the points made of the difficult struggle of today's non-military pilots have been clearly pointed out by you. It is truly a daunting task to qualify for an airline position with a major carrier from a civilian background. Certainly today's military pilots have a demanding challenge too, even surviving from enlistment to then moving to the airlines can require luck. But the military pilot is one who has chosen that career to serve his/her country and should always be focused on that objective. So upon discharge, moving to the airlines is very easy if there are openings. That's why the military way is called the easy way, those pilots learned to fly for another reason than just becoming airline pilots, their primary career they will say is being a US military pilot for 12 to 20 or even 25 years. That is their job primarily. For many career military pilots, airline pilot is a secondary add-on career. So for them, becoming an airline pilot is an easy choice, just decide and go if their timing is right. Hit the “EASY” button.

Now if you agree that the civilian who chooses to pursue an airline job is a more daunting task than a military pilot choosing to make the same pursuit, then you and I agree. I do agree with you that my difficulty was far less than today's civilian pilot who has to go through many more hardships as you did. So there is really no argument as to who had a harder “row to hoe." Your task was more daunting than mine, and I'm sure there are others who have had an even more taunting task than you. And my point was that the Civilian way of going from one career as a professional whatever to airline pilot is the harder way to become an airline pilot than the military pilot who chooses to go from his career to airline pilot. I really don't think there is an argument here.

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, you really are a monumental ass. Military aviation is the "easy way?" Wow. I feel sorry for the United pilots that had to share a cockpit with you.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF, I don't know if you're a liar or not, and I really don't care. You are, however, a selfish piece of sh--,

OK so now you’re backing off about my being a liar because you have nothing to back that up with, and now your accusation is that I am selfish. I suppose that's because I wanted our senior pilots to have the right to work past age 59, even though I never did that. But what about all the pilots who are having their age-60 birthdays every day and ACTUALLY ARE working past age 59. Are they more selfish? And how about you, are you going to work past age 60? I bet you will. Won't that really make you selfish too, and compared to me who never worked a day past age 59, I am not selfish at all by comparison.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

Good luck because anyone working for UAL will need it.

Thank you, Debbie Downer. There's a lot of guys like yourself who feel shafted, but few who have handled it with less class.

 

[PCL_128]

OK so now you’re backing off about my being a liar because you have nothing to back that up with

I'm not backing off of anything, because I never said you were a liar. I just said you're a scumbag.

and now your accusation is that I am selfish

That's always been my accusation, along with the fact that you're a piece of sh--.

But what about all the pilots who are having their age-60 birthdays every day and ACTUALLY ARE working past age 59. Are they more selfish?

No, you're just as bad as them. Worse, really, because you're the one that hammed it up to the media in order to get the whole thing changed in the first place.

And how about you, are you going to work past age 60? I bet you will.

I don't plan on working past age 55. Flying Boeings isn't the be all, end all for me. You may be that much of a loser, but most of us aren't.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I don't plan on working past age 55. Flying Boeings isn't the be all, end all for me.

Right, what joke that is. Everyone says that so often they even believe it themselves until that time comes.

 

[PCL_128]

Right, what joke that is. Everyone says that so often they even believe it themselves until that time comes.

No, some of us actually plan ahead. Rather than spending ridiculous amounts of money on GA airplanes and such during our careers, we put our money away in wise investments. That way we don't have to rape our fellow pilots of what is rightfully theirs in order to survive. You should try it some time...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

No, some of us actually plan ahead. Rather than spending ridiculous amounts of money on GA.

You should try to spend some of your income in aviation. I believe in giving back to the industry. You should try it sometime.....

 

[PCL_128]

I believe in giving back to the industry. You should try it sometime.....

I give back to my industry by volunteering my time for my union. I spent five years doing ALPA work, three of it as an elected rep. How much time did you spend in elected office? Oh sorry, I forgot; you were too busy trying to steal from your fellow pilots. You disgust me.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I give back to my industry by volunteering my time for my union. I spent five years doing ALPA work, three of it as an elected rep. How much time did you spend in elected office? Oh sorry, I forgot; you were too busy trying to steal from your fellow pilots. You disgust me.

That figures. I spent my time on the right side of the issues while you fought to preserve discrimination. I certainly hope ALPA is held accountable for their actions if they broke the law. Do you not agree that any person or organization that breaks the law should be held accountable? In any event, the laws and courts will decide this no matter what you and I say or believe.

 

[PCL_128]

That figures. I spent my time on the right side of the issues while you fought to preserve discrimination.

No, I fought to protect the interests of the pilots that I represented.

I certainly hope ALPA is held accountable for their actions if they broke the law. Do you now agree that any person or organization that breaks the law should be held accountable?

No one broke the law. Your question is irrelevant, much like you.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

No one broke the law. Your question is irrelevant.

Oh really! If that is so and you are so confident in that belief, then why did ALPA get an imunity provison written into the new age 60/65 law? Why did they feel it was necessary if there was no question about ALPA's guilt on this issue? And when that part is stricken down as it may be, what do you think will happen?

ALPA can not take a position in support of something that is against the law just because the majority of the Union wants to. Surely you know better than that!

If the majority of the Union vote to pay a minority group half the pay of the others, and later the Feds so no that wasn't right because it violated that groups constitutional rights, then the minority group will be made whole for the wrong-doing. That is just the law. And for years, particularly since 11/23/07, ALPA/APA and others broke the law regarding age discrimination by advocating a postion that was a lie and they knew it to be a lie. Also, their postiion was contrary to the Union's position of non-discrimination. It may take time, but this issue may cost the Unions real money. And just think, you were a part of this failed effort to preserve discrimination. Congratulations on your success.

 

[Andy]

Well, I got a PM from 'ol UF calling me out on the founding of SIU's aerobatic team. On another webpage, he lists himself as "Clubs: Founder - SIU Aerobatic Team" under his college education spanning 1965-1969. I won't bother linking to that webpage; I'll let UF do that if he desires - personally, I can't take much more of the Johnny Cash song playing on it.
The RWAA wasn't even founded until 1982, and there's no mention of UF as a founder. http://www.avtech.siu.edu/pages/rso.html

Perhaps UF can dig up a link that cites him as the founder? I sure can't.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The RWAA is the umbrella under which the Aerobatic team is associated with SIU. I certainly had nothing to do with founding RWAA. The collegiate aerobatic program and the SIU team were founded about 7 years ago.

So you see, ANDY shot from the hip regarding the Aerobatic Team and my participation, as much as calling me a liar. And now he won't even apologize for his haste to discredit me without the facts. Is this what should be expected from a graduate of the USAFA? Is that what you have been taught on my nickel? Come on ANDY, say you made a mistake.

 

[pipe]

Oh really! If that is so and you are so confident in that belief, then why did ALPA get an imunity provison written into the new age 60/65 law? Why did they feel it was necessary if there was no question about ALPA's guilt on this issue? And when that part is stricken down as it may be, what do you think will happen?

ALPA can not take a position in support of something that is against the law just because the majority of the Union wants to. Surely you know better than that!

If the majority of the Union vote to pay a minority group half the pay of the others, and later the Feds so no that wasn't right because it violated that groups constitutional rights, then the minority group will be made whole for the wrong-doing. That is just the law. And for years, particularly since 11/23/07, ALPA/APA and others broke the law regarding age discrimination by advocating a postion that was a lie and they knew it to be a lie. Also, their postiion was contrary to the Union's position of non-discrimination. It may take time, but this issue may cost the Unions real money. And just think, you were a part of this failed effort to preserve discrimination. Congratulations on your success.

You are truly clueless.

The legal protections were the only way the industry would allow passage of this law. Without it, all of the backward retraining or passover pay would have made this too financially ponderous to even consider. Truthfully, you have ALPA's support to thank as the wedge that finally drove this BS off-center for you old codgers.

I'm sure you're aware that laws that may threaten the financial health of a business if enacted are rarely enforced.

PIPE

 

[Andy]

The RWAA is the umbrella under which the Aerobatic team is associated with SIU. I certainly had nothing to do with founding RWAA. The collegiate aerobatic program and the SIU team were founded about 7 years ago.

So you see, ANDY shot from the hip regarding the Aerobatic Team and my participation, as much as calling me a liar. And now he won't even apologize for his haste to discredit me without the facts. Is this what should be expected from a graduate of the USAFA? Is that what you have been taught on my nickel? Come on ANDY, say you made a mistake.

UF, on the other webpage, you clearly imply that you founded the SIU aerobatic team back in the late 60s when you were an undergrad. As you well know, the aerobatic team didn't come into existance until ~2000. Even so, I have searched for any, ANY independent source that would credit you with founding the SIU aerobatic team. Zippo. Prove that you founded the team; I don't believe you. I've searched multiple places and have found nothing. I have caught you quibbling multiple times on this board. And as per the standard modus operandi of a pathological liar, you deny or change the story once caught. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_you_tell_if_someone_is_a_pathological_liar

UF, let's be clear. You are a pathological liar. You fit the classic description. I'd dig up some of your old posts on this site where you were clearly quibbling, but you'd reply with your standard backpedaling.

Ladies and gentlemen, my apologies that this thread has become hijacked. This is getting beyond childish. I used to hate UF. Now I feel more pity than anything else for him. Guys, it's time to shut down this thread - let's give UF the last word. UF, you have the floor ...

 

[Yuppyguppy]

I'm really surprised at the anger in some of the FI members in their replies to posts. These replies make me wonder if those posts are from members who can not handle the truth. When I ask others to use caution regarding a change from your current job to a UAL pilot job, on account of the current state of affairs at UAL, some chose to want to "kill the messenger." I have said I wish it wasn't as bad as it is but that would be a lie. Do you only want to hear fairy tales about how great it will be at an airline and how they will love you. And maybe even some BS about how you'll be promoted soon. Is that what is expected? Do the FI members want BS or some words of caution before they make major commitments to leave a perfectly good corporate job or a nice senior captain position with a Regional, or to leave a good job you like in the military? I believe that even ANDY has chosen to stay in the military rather than return to his UAL job.

I"m clipping your wings undaunted flyer...period. After this post you are ignored. Thanks be to God you are retired! Please go do something constructive like play golf or fish out of your boat we have ZERO interest in your comments or your lack of respect for UAL TK and the training. I've been to 6 airlines UAL training is very very good.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I have searched for any, ANY independent source that would credit you with founding the SIU aerobatic team. Zippo. Prove that you founded the team; I don't believe you. I've searched multiple places and have found nothing. Guys, it's time to shut down this thread - let's give UF the last word. UF, you have the floor ...

OK. Here is everything you can use ANDY. These are two links and an email address.

The following link lists all the rules that I personally developed for the program.
http://www.iac.org/programs/collegiate_rules.html

And the following shows the position of Chairman of the program in an article written about the team.
http://www.iac.org/news/2003%20-%2001_21%20-%20SIU%20Aerobatic%20Team%20Receives%20Award.html#TopOfPage

There is really no news story on line that shows anyone as the founder because I really didn't feel any need to ever release such a story or a need to make a big deal about that subject. It was the press about the team and their success that was important.

If the above isn’t enough, here is the email address of the current IAC Collegiate Chairman - Charles Rodriguez. You can ask him questions if you wish. I 'm sure he will reply promptly. [email protected]


Andy: I am really quite surprised that you would have said you have hated me or anyone ever. I have no hatred for you or any of the FI members. Maybe I hate Osama bin Laden, but that’s it. Personally, I would have no problem sitting down and having a Mai Tai (MiaTia if you prefer) with any FI member and probably laughing about how foolish the personal attacks have been. You and Pipe have both been suspended for such reasons (against me) and actually I think it is just something to laugh about where a member went over the line.

So really, I hope you all have a nice career in aviation. I certainly have and I encourage others to pursue the aviation business too, just not necessarily the airline pilot business, maybe corporate is best for some people. Airline pilot is only OK if you totally love to fly all the time and are satisfied with school teacher wages.

There is, in fact, a worldwide shortage of pilots so if you’re qualified, pilots should feel as though they're “in the middle of their own acre of diamonds.” Just pick one up and run with it. If it turns out to be flawed, drop it and you’ll quickly find another.

And regarding UAL, to be fair, they always treated me fine except for screwing me out of my retirment (no big deal), and I never failed a single checkride in my career. They also tried to replace us all with replacement pilots from the outside too. So personally, I should have no complaints, right! But from my recent posts you can see there are new concerns. These are not just my trivial concerns over things like the past pensions, they are the new concerns of many. Certainly you have heard these same issues before from different sources, even from your own Union.

It's really sort of funny and tragic but some FI members are very quick to call others liars, call them names like selfish, greedy, scumbags, gummers, and so forth; or they may say that they hate or pity a fellow member. This is really something I just don't understand from educated people. Can't these members express themselves without such tactics as name-calling, personal attacks and unfounded accusations? This same problem may explain why the Unions of the different airlines can not unite their membership any longer. The pilots are their own enemies. Just attend a Union meeting sometime. There isn’t anyone there because the members have lost interest over the same tactics I see here are FI. Good luck in your efforts but unless the tactics are changed, I don't expect much of a future for the profession.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh really! If that is so and you are so confident in that belief, then why did ALPA get an imunity provison written into the new age 60/65 law? Why did they feel it was necessary if there was no question about ALPA's guilt on this issue? And when that part is stricken down as it may be, what do you think will happen?

ALPA can not take a position in support of something that is against the law just because the majority of the Union wants to. Surely you know better than that!


If the majority of the Union vote to pay a minority group half the pay of the others, and later the Feds so no that wasn't right because it violated that groups constitutional rights, then the minority group will be made whole for the wrong-doing. That is just the law. And for years, particularly since 11/23/07, ALPA/APA and others broke the law regarding age discrimination by advocating a postion that was a lie and they knew it to be a lie. Also, their postiion was contrary to the Union's position of non-discrimination. It may take time, but this issue may cost the Unions real money. And just think, you were a part of this failed effort to preserve discrimination. Congratulations on your success.

Dear senile old geezer,

The language was included in the bill specifically because of litigious old scumbags like yourself that would sue everyone and their mother despite not having any decent case. Defending against lawsuits costs lots of money, even if your opponent doesn't have a legitimate case. The RJDC eventually settled for a pittance, but the years and years of legal wrangling cost the Association dearly. Preventing such ridiculous litigation from the beginning was a very smart move, despite my overall dislike of the age change.

But for you to even discuss suing the union is unbelievable at this point. Your precious age change legislation never even would have happened if ALPA didn't champion it at the end. Oberstar was acting on orders from Prater, whether he or ALPA will ever admit it or not. And now you want to sue them for giving you exactly what you've wanted all these years! Pathetic. Prater stabbed the rest of us in the back to help a small minority of the membership. Representatives like me did our best to support the membership on this, but Prater eventually prevailed against us and fu--ed over the majority of the membership. And for his efforts, you want to attack the union and bankrupt it. You really have no shame.

 

[2ndGenPSA]

Can this not be taken care of via private message? You are boring us and taking up our precious time with your personal argument.
Cheers!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Dear senile old geezer,

The language was included in the bill specifically because of litigious old scumbags like yourself that would sue everyone and their mother despite not having any decent case. Defending against lawsuits costs lots of money, even if your opponent doesn't have a legitimate case. The RJDC eventually settled for a pittance, but the years and years of legal wrangling cost the Association dearly. Preventing such ridiculous litigation from the beginning was a very smart move, despite my overall dislike of the age change.

But for you to even discuss suing the union is unbelievable at this point. Your precious age change legislation never even would have happened if ALPA didn't champion it at the end. Oberstar was acting on orders from Prater, whether he or ALPA will ever admit it or not. And now you want to sue them for giving you exactly what you've wanted all these years! Pathetic. Prater stabbed the rest of us in the back to help a small minority of the membership. Representatives like me did our best to support the membership on this, but Prater eventually prevailed against us and fu--ed over the majority of the membership. And for his efforts, you want to attack the union and bankrupt it. You really have no shame.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't your post agree with my contention that you and the union failed in your efforts, dispite all the money given to Oberstar and so many others?

And if ALPA is guilty of breaking the law should they be held accountable? Or should they just be given a free pass? That was my question.

Can you please just answer the questons without name calling. When you use those tactics it indicates that you can not give a quality answer to the question.

 

[PCL_128]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't your post agree with my contention that you and the union failed in your efforts, dispite all the money given to Oberstar and so many others?

Negative. The union got exactly what they wanted: an age change. After Prater pushed the EC and EB into changing the policy, it was a foregone conclusion that the change would happen, because ALPA was really the only force in Washington holding it up. Did I personally fail in my own efforts? Yes, I did. I, along with many other reps from different airlines, fought hard to pass resolutions to stop this godforsaken policy change before it happened. But Prater still managed to do it.

And if ALPA is guilty of breaking the law should they be held accountable?

I repeat: ALPA did not break any law. Your question is irrelevant.

Can you please just answer the questons without name calling.

With most people, I would. But you are a special kind of scumbag. People know of you across the industry for you selfish attitudes and ideas of pulling up the ladder behind you. I think of you as being no better than a SCAB. Just speaking to you is distasteful.