United Captain Off Loads F/A

[skiandsurf]

The biggest surprise about this story, is that they were only on the ground in MIA for under an hour. Considering this is not a UAL served airport, getting customs to take the FA, and getting fueled.

 

[BrickTop]

Looks like paying for jumpseating is boiling blood over at UAL.

 

[NEDude]

Here is my guess how the situation will unfold:

The FA union will scream bloody murder over this, dig in their heels until the FA is let off the hook. Management will in turn terminate the captain and the pilots union will turn a blind eye. Shortly thereafter a memo will come out stating that the lead FA is now the PIC (Person In Charge) and the captain and FO are last in the chain of command. Soon all airlines will begin to follow suit. All along the pilots unions will sit back and do nothing while it happens. Then 20 years down the road one ALPAs senior guys will say something like "maybe we should have fought for that".

 

[Raskal]

Here is my guess how the situation will unfold:

The FA union will scream bloody murder over this, dig in their heels until the FA is let off the hook. Management will in turn terminate the captain and the pilots union will turn a blind eye. Shortly thereafter a memo will come out stating that the lead FA is now the PIC (Person In Charge) and the captain and FO are last in the chain of command. Soon all airlines will begin to follow suit. All along the pilots unions will sit back and do nothing while it happens. Then 20 years down the road one ALPAs senior guys will say something like "maybe we should have fought for that".

That's pretty damn funny! :beer:

 

[8v8ter]

The only exception for sitting up front with AA is when the Capt. is ex-TWA (my personal experience).

I agree with this statement! An ex=TWA cockpit crew went at it with the AA FAs over whether I should sit in first or coach. I was just happy for a ride, but was happy also when the pilots won and I sat in first!

 

[Dan Roman]

Let's see how it shakes out.

I once returned to the gate to drop kick an FA.

A friend of mine almost did the same thing as the UA pilot. The FO needed to use the head and the FA said that she would get to it when she was good and ready and then she refused to answer the intercom.

My friend then called to the back and told them that the FA needed to come to the flight deck NOW. She arrived with her attitude intact and he told her she could shape up immediately or he would divert and kick her ass off the plane.

Luckily for her she did change her toon. Had she continued along her chosen path he damn well should have landed short and thrown her off.

The whole bathroom thing has been an issue since 9/11. It's not that hard to deal with it. If a cockpit crewmember has got to go, their is little justification for insubordination from the flight attendant. That said, it helps to appreciate the fact that they get do get busy and a little consideration from the cockpit pretty much will solve any communication issues on the matter. It's just not that hard to come to a mutually acceptable solution.

If nothing else works you can always wait till the F/A finally does come up and hand them a glass of OJ mixed with water and say "nevermind, but could you get ride of this?"

 

[Skybus]

Pretty amazing how bravado on here. Did it ever occur to anybody on here that the Captain was just a dick trying to extend his 2 inch tool? YGTBSM diverting a 767 full of passangers to show what a stud he was. No wonder they are going broke and no wonder all the "super pilots" on here that find this so impressive are working at the misfit operatons they are.

Bus

 

[b707guy]

After reading and enjoying all of this, I gotta go with Skybus on this one. Booting some drunken idiot or deranged terrorist wannabe in Halifax or Bangor is one thing. Stopping in MIA to offload a part of the crew due to an authority conflict is ridiculous. The one thing that the capt had correct was that the issue needed to be resolved on the ground. Thing is, it should have been done in ORD. There's either a lot more to this story, or the capt is a few froots short of a loop.

Having said that, freight might kill you, but it generally doesn't get bitchy.

 

[NEDude]

The whole bathroom thing has been an issue since 9/11. It's not that hard to deal with it. If a cockpit crewmember has got to go, their is little justification for insubordination from the flight attendant. That said, it helps to appreciate the fact that they get do get busy and a little consideration from the cockpit pretty much will solve any communication issues on the matter. It's just not that hard to come to a mutually acceptable solution.

If nothing else works you can always wait till the F/A finally does come up and hand them a glass of OJ mixed with water and say "nevermind, but could you get ride of this?"

From the days of flying a Beech 1900 with no lav, I know of at least one pilot who diverted to use the potty. I suppose if an FA were to refuse a flight deck crew member's request to use the lav, said FA would have a lot of explaining to due if there was a diversion so a flight deck crew member could use the lav.

 

[aussieflyboy]

After reading and enjoying all of this, I gotta go with Skybus on this one. Booting some drunken idiot or deranged terrorist wannabe in Halifax or Bangor is one thing. Stopping in MIA to offload a part of the crew due to an authority conflict is ridiculous. The one thing that the capt had correct was that the issue needed to be resolved on the ground. Thing is, it should have been done in ORD. There's either a lot more to this story, or the capt is a few froots short of a loop.

Having said that, freight might kill you, but it generally doesn't get bitchy.

Exactly...

I'm reminded of a particularly humerous South Park episode where Cartman is appointed Hall Monitor.

"RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH"

What a f****** a$$ clown to throw off a crew member like that on the way to your destination. What's the matter? Never learned conflict resolution as a toddler the way the rest of us learn it? Don't know how to be an adult and find an amicable solution to a problem. That's exactly the kind of guy who has no business in charge of an airliner.

What a d***head. Some time off without pay is in order....

 

[J.Otto]

I agree with b707. The capt. was quite brazen in his handling of the situation.

 

[crashpad]

Safety is the #1 priority. When there's a crew member with a communication problem, they compromise everyones' safety.

 

[IBNAV8R]

FAR 121.533
(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, IN COMMAND of the aircraft AND CREW and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.
(e) Each pilot in command has FULL CONTROL AND AUTHORITY in the operation of the aircraft, WITHOUT LIMITATION, OVER OTHER CREWMEMBERS AND THEIR DUTIES during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.

Seems this little known concept has gotten lost. Don't know what happened in this case. The captain may or may not have overreacted but if there was ANY noncompliance on the part of the FA, he/she should be violated, fired and be friggin' happy that airplanes never had yardarms.

 

[Cardinal]

Never learned conflict resolution as a toddler the way the rest of us learn it? Don't know how to be an adult and find an amicable solution to a problem. That's exactly the kind of guy who has no business in charge of an airliner.

In Africa conflict resolution often involves a rusty AK47.
On the streets of American cities conflict resolution often involves billy clubs, handcuffs, and an issue Glock.
On this flight it involved a 1 hour enroute diversion. As conflict resolution takes many forms, this example is certainly in the mild category.

All those of you down on this captain, have you never had a flight attendant get out of line, such that you can't imagine it coming to this? I've worked with a great bunch of FAs, but there were still the 2%ers that could turn any situation into a nightmare.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Perhaps you little b#$ches enjoying your little sewing circle might sit tight for awhile and wait for the full report, including the Captain's side.

Chances are that more than a few of you idiots, especially one that actually advertises in his Avatar as an "XJT FO", have never spent many "enjoyable" hours with a FA crew that appears to have little respect for procedures, FAR's and the Captain.

This could be anything from a petulant, career stressed Captain going "off the reservation", to a FA that repeatably ignored warnings about grabbing cigarettes in the forward lav, or pressing in a oven circuit breaker repeatably after being warned not to for MEL reasons because they're too lazy to walk to the mid galley. Of course in the FA's case, they're always fire and engineering experts when it comes to "their" lavs and galleys. In my experience, the FA's backed off when told to knock it off (never of course admitting guilt, even after the strong cig smell came with a FA in the lav). I would have no problem doing what the UAL CA did if the actions continued.

 

[SLOTH]

That is one big problem that we're dealing with right now. Everyone seems to think that they have the right to usurp the Captain's authority without repercussions. Personally I'm glad that this Captain did what he did to draw a line in the sand. Not sure if I would have handled it the same way, since each situation is different. Outside if the US the FA would most certainly have been canned for insubordination.

 

[RNObased]

Pretty amazing how bravado on here. Did it ever occur to anybody on here that the Captain was just a dick trying to extend his 2 inch tool? YGTBSM diverting a 767 full of passangers to show what a stud he was. No wonder they are going broke and no wonder all the "super pilots" on here that find this so impressive are working at the misfit operatons they are.

Bus

I have read this whole thread and bus is right on the money. Maybe the FA wasn't giving the captain the respect he thought he deservered, but he was probably doing his job in back and wasn't storming the cockpit with a plastic knife.

Finish the flight, get the job you are being paid to do, done then take it out in the parking lot at ORD and kick the crap out of the FA. Actually my money would be on the FA after seeing some of those captains. Sometimes you have to look at the BIG picture.

 

[Sedona16]

I have read this whole thread and bus is right on the money. Maybe the FA wasn't giving the captain the respect he thought he deservered, but he was probably doing his job in back and wasn't storming the cockpit with a plastic knife.

Finish the flight, get the job you are being paid to do, done then take it out in the parking lot at ORD and kick the crap out of the FA. Actually my money would be on the FA after seeing some of those captains. Sometimes you have to look at the BIG picture.

I'm just curious, do you have facts about this scenario the rest of us aren't privy to? It always amazes me how quickly pilots turn on their own before getting any facts. This might very well have been something more serious than a little arguement. lets give the PILOTS the benefit of the doubt until we hear any details or official report.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

An observation.

Certain posters here, claiming to be pilots, have taken the FA's side in this incident without any other information than a couple of newspaper articles with extremely limited information, and one alleged second hand report from an alleged FA on another internet forum.

We also know that amongst the "legacy" carrier FA's and even what I've witnessed with a LCC FA, that just as in society today, there is a certain subset that "feel" they don't have to listen to or respect any authority that doesn't place their "feelings" at the top of the decison flowchart. Over and over again, my carrier is routinely slammed by jumpseaters (rightly so), for the FA's sending them to the "back of the bus" when there are open First Class seats, yet when the ultimate example of Captain's authority may have been used, you slam the Captain without all the facts.

Totally pathetic.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Pilots truly are they're own worst enemies.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I have read this whole thread and bus is right on the money. Maybe the FA wasn't giving the captain the respect he thought he deservered, but he was probably doing his job in back and wasn't storming the cockpit with a plastic knife.

Finish the flight, get the job you are being paid to do, done then take it out in the parking lot at ORD and kick the crap out of the FA. Actually my money would be on the FA after seeing some of those captains. Sometimes you have to look at the BIG picture.

You, "RNObased", are one of the more clueless posters on this thread.

"I have read this whole thread and bus is right on the money."

Right about what? And based on what information?

"Maybe the FA wasn't giving the captain the respect he thought he deservered, but he was probably doing his job in back and wasn't storming the cockpit with a plastic knife. "

Maybe the FA refused any communication on the interphone while alone in the fwd galley. Maybe the FA was pushing in breakers and using MEL's ovens or coffee makers, maybe the FA was copping cigs in the lav, maybe the FA was going nuts from his/her 3 Ambiem sleeping pill habit, maybe the FA threatened the CA on the interphone. Don't think they're capable of that? Ask the UAL Brazil guys about the two male FA's who held a hooker by her ankles over the railing of a hotel atrium 25 stories over the crowded lobby below, when she wouldn't give a 2 for 1 special.

"Finish the flight, get the job you are being paid to do, done then take it out in the parking lot at ORD and kick the crap out of the FA."

Now you're living in fairy tale world. You will go to jail for that even though I wish it was possible. Chances are good that "Bruce" spends half his single life at the gym and will wipe the floor with your arse also. The FA's at any legacy spend all their mental energy figuring exactly to the millisecond when the don't have to listen to the Captain after engine shutdown. Once they're walking off the jetbridge after a flight, they aren't listening to anything a Captain says.

"Actually my money would be on the FA after seeing some of those captains. Sometimes you have to look at the BIG picture."

I could be wrong, but your statement reminds me of what happened at my legacy. Our thousands of young B-Scale wonders came to a legacy where even the FE's had 18 years on the line. They saw the old grizzled Captain's "being mean" and "gruff" in handling the senior mammas. They of course were going to have more empathy and not be "meanies".

What happened? The FA's just took it as weakness and ran with it. Everytime one of these "caring and sharing" Captains ends up a simple command, directive, request or suggestion with the statement "If you have a chance, If you find the time, I know you're busy but..., " certain FA's will take that as meaning they will get around to it when they damn well feel like it.

I truly hope this Captain had a valid reason. If he did, he may have given a wake up call to every problem FA in this country. If he didn't he may have done some damage to our side.

 

[RNObased]

You, "RNObased", are one of the more clueless posters on this thread.

"I have read this whole thread and bus is right on the money."

Right about what? And based on what information?

"Maybe the FA wasn't giving the captain the respect he thought he deservered, but he was probably doing his job in back and wasn't storming the cockpit with a plastic knife. "

Maybe the FA refused any communication on the interphone while alone in the fwd galley. Maybe the FA was pushing in breakers and using MEL's ovens or coffee makers, maybe the FA was copping cigs in the lav, maybe the FA was going nuts from his/her 3 Ambiem sleeping pill habit, maybe the FA threatened the CA on the interphone. Don't think they're capable of that? Ask the UAL Brazil guys about the two male FA's who held a hooker by her ankles over the railing of a hotel atrium 25 stories over the crowded lobby below, when she wouldn't give a 2 for 1 special.

"Finish the flight, get the job you are being paid to do, done then take it out in the parking lot at ORD and kick the crap out of the FA."

Now you're living in fairy tale world. You will go to jail for that even though I wish it was possible. Chances are good that "Bruce" spends half his single life at the gym and will wipe the floor with your arse also. The FA's at any legacy spend all their mental energy figuring exactly to the millisecond when the don't have to listen to the Captain after engine shutdown. Once they're walking off the jetbridge after a flight, they aren't listening to anything a Captain says.

"Actually my money would be on the FA after seeing some of those captains. Sometimes you have to look at the BIG picture."

I could be wrong, but your statement reminds me of what happened at my legacy. Our thousands of young B-Scale wonders came to a legacy where even the FE's had 18 years on the line. They saw the old grizzled Captain's "being mean" and "gruff" in handling the senior mammas. They of course were going to have more empathy and not be "meanies".

What happened? The FA's just took it as weakness and ran with it. Everytime one of these "caring and sharing" Captains ends up a simple command, directive, request or suggestion with the statement "If you have a chance, If you find the time, I know you're busy but..., " certain FA's will take that as meaning they will get around to it when they damn well feel like it.

I truly hope this Captain had a valid reason. If he did, he may have given a wake up call to every problem FA in this country. If he didn't he may have done some damage to our side.

Ahh... Nevermind. You are right, the FA was way out of line and he showed her. F the people in back they don't matter. Just a little too much God complex here.

 

[RDG]

Ahh... Nevermind. You are right, the FA was way out of line and he showed her. F the people in back they don't matter. Just a little too much God complex here.

Maybe it's because the people in the back DO matter that he offloaded the FA. Ever think of that, skippy? You are awful judgemental for not having all the facts.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Ahh... Nevermind. You are right, the FA was way out of line and he showed her. F the people in back they don't matter. Just a little too much God complex here.

No, I'm not right. With the information we have at this time, I'm going to wait before I convict the Captain or the Flight Attendant of wrongdoing. If you just add the statement "Maybe there is...." to your statement "Just a little too much God complex here.", it would be fair.

Try reading next time instead of cut/paste.

Do you actually work as a pilot?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

................

 

[AC560]

Everyone seems to think that they have the right to usurp the Captain's authority without repercussions.

Just like everyone seems to think the PIC can excercise his/her authority under 91.3, 121.533, etc. without repercussions.

All decisions have consequences.

 

[b707guy]

I'm just curious, do you have facts about this scenario the rest of us aren't privy to?

That's the million dollar comment here. I certainly don't, and it's unlikely that any one else here has the full scoop. Even if they do, they should keep mum until the proper channels are tuned in.

Having said that, my comments were never meant to defend or exonerate the FA in question. But I have a hard time imagining a situation where a cabin crew member failing to respect "mah authoritah" escalating to a situation where a Capt who was truly in charge (read that how you want...) should feel the need to land early for a boot. If there was truly a safety of flight issue, such as the FA implying or making threats, holding in CBs, etc, then the FA should have been tied up, incapacitated, whatever. That doesn't appear to have been done. So I guess it'll boil down to the people looking into this with all the facts on hand as to whether the Capt's decision was prudent or petty, or somewhere in between.

 

[skiandsurf]

This will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Not knowing all the facts (or any facts), I would guess that the company will be pissed at the captain, and try to hang him... but the FAA will hopefully still respect the captains authority. I am sure that his lawyer will argue "Captains authority, and Safety of Flight".

Will be waiting for more details on this one.

 

[RNObased]

No, I'm not right. With the information we have at this time, I'm going to wait before I convict the Captain or the Flight Attendant of wrongdoing. If you just add the statement "Maybe there is...." to your statement "Just a little too much God complex here.", it would be fair.

Try reading next time instead of cut/paste.

Do you actually work as a pilot?

Yes, I work as a pilot. I didn't cut and paste either smart guy.

Time will tell if the capt was right or wrong. I would say he better hope he was correct.

Actually putting the word maybe in front of that sentence would be very wrong.

 

[Skybus]

Off another web site. Exactly what I was pretty sure occured.


OK, I got the whole story, not first hand, but pretty reliable:

45 minutes into the 11-hr flight from GRU to ORD, Captain wonderful (his name
is XXXXXXXX, but he insisted to be called "Sir") called the purser who is in
the middle of FC service, he wants his"crew dec" (mind you, it's
not gen dec which the purser had already given it to him on the ground. I
think crew dec is our custom form, so Capt Wonderful probably have a list of
shopping to be declared). She said "I'm sorry I forgot, but I'll bring it to
you on your next potty break" He said "I want it NOW", she said "We're in the
middle of the FC service, I'll bring it to you on your next potty break". He
said "NOW". OK, whatever, since there was no spare FA to guard the cockpit door
as United wants us to, she slid the crew dec under the door. Done. After the
service when she goes up to do the potty break, F/O
came out, she goes in. The idiot started yelling at her so loud that the
FO heard in the lav, the FC galley girl guarding the door heard, and the entire
FC cabin heard. The F/O apologized to the FA saying that he's been a total
jerk the whole 4-day trip, doesn't allow them to call him by his name, they must
only call him "sir". Sounds like a wiener and a whiner to me..

Later when the purser was on break, she was woken up by the FC FA telling her
that she's got to get ready, they are landing in 30 min. Well, she's thinking
of course that there's a full cabin prep coming. Gets on the phone to the
cockpit "do you want to do this over the phone or should I go up
there?" "No, you've been relieved of your duties, I am not speaking to you
any more". He gets on the PA "Ladies & Gentlemen, we are making an unscheduled
landing in Miami in 30 minutes", no explanation, no apology.

The jerk had a choice of landing in MIA or MCO, he chose MIA because there're
no United personnel in MIA. The rest of the crew (other than purser and FC
girl) didn't have a clue of what's going on, even the other pilots weren't told
anything until the last minute (one of them was on break).

So they landed in MIA @ 0416 and pull up to the gate, and there were police,
TSA and Fire department all there, guns drawn. They only knew there's an
emergency, but they apparently had the purser's name. "Are you Patty Secrest?"
"Yes", "come with us". She stepped out on the jetbridge, and they ask what
happened. Capt came out and says...."She's a TERRORIST and I want her
arrested!!!!! "What happened?" "She defied the captain's authority, she refused
to bring my crerw dec when I asked for it, and slid it under the
door". The authorities are all sympathetic with the purser and looked at
the
capt like he's crazy, but she stays in MIA and the flt goes on to ORD.
They landed in ORD and are met by all the UAL people. Everyone was interviewed
individually and all told the same story (incl pilots). Capt refused to speak
without ALPA. He is currently on suspension, his license suspended (I was told,
can't verify that).

If the story was true which sounded like a true story, I hope United fires
XXXXXXX ass, and the purser sues what's left of his ass."