Didn't say I was. I do wonder what those guys would say about the industry now. I'd like to get their thoughts on sUAL pilot hubris. Frontier honors their picket line in 86, then they all get put on the street as UAL takes their 737s. Frontier ends up at CAL. In an integration that sUAL pilots cite as an example of what they feel they deserve being integrated with CAL 30 years later!?YGTBSM! I understand the ISL is done, but no one should forget that. ALPAs forefathers would be wondering how these guys got so off track.
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Didn't say I was. I do wonder what those guys would say about the industry now. I'd like to get their thoughts on sUAL pilot hubris. Frontier honors their picket line in 86, then they all get put on the street as UAL takes their 737s. Frontier ends up at CAL. In an integration that sUAL pilots cite as an example of what they feel they deserve being integrated with CAL 30 years later!?YGTBSM! I understand the ISL is done, but no one should forget that. ALPAs forefathers would be wondering how these guys got so off track.
Shrek
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http://wearealpa.org/SAS/Pilots Union pages.pdf
Through that motto (Schedule with Safety) the ALPA Code of Ethics was born.....
An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.
? He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety. (Example - carrying MELS over and over through MX bases. )
? He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.(Example - have a pile of write ups given by an FA before the closing of the door and not having them "discovered" until after the flight is airborne to a maintenance base. )
? Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.(Example - APU ten minutes before scheduled push even though the pax are roasting in the back - a Classic Marvin practice after our latest version of Fuel School)
? Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.(Read that one again. )
? If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.
An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.
? He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.
? He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.(Emphasis on subservience. )
? He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will insist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.(Emphasis on Flight Safety
? He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.
? He will remember that a full month?s salary demands a full and fair month?s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.
? He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.(Seen MULTIPLE examples of violations of that since being based in IAH )
? He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.
? He will hold his airline?s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.
An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.
? He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.
? If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member?s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.
? An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.
? While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.
An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.(Example of NOT following this one - Slick Ties at UAL)
? He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.(Empasis on job security IOW - SCABS)
? He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.
? An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he take advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.
? He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.
An Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.
? He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.(Did YOU submit the Call to Action in regards to NAI?)
? He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
? He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
? He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
? He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry, the profession, or ALPA.
? He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.
Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called?an AIRLINE PILOT.
Through that motto (Schedule with Safety) the ALPA Code of Ethics was born.....
An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility.
? He will never permit external pressures or personal desires to influence his judgment, nor will he knowingly do anything that could jeopardize flight safety. (Example - carrying MELS over and over through MX bases. )
? He will remember that an act of omission can be as hazardous as a deliberate act of commission, and he will not neglect any detail that contributes to the safety of his flight, or perform any operation in a negligent or careless manner.(Example - have a pile of write ups given by an FA before the closing of the door and not having them "discovered" until after the flight is airborne to a maintenance base. )
? Consistent with flight safety, he will at all times operate his aircraft in a manner that will contribute to the comfort, peace of mind, and well-being of his passengers, instilling in them trust in him and the airline he represents.(Example - APU ten minutes before scheduled push even though the pax are roasting in the back - a Classic Marvin practice after our latest version of Fuel School)
? Once he has discharged his primary responsibility for the safety and comfort of his passengers, he will remember that they depend upon him to do all possible to deliver them to their destination at the scheduled time.(Read that one again. )
? If disaster should strike, he will take whatever action he deems necessary to protect the lives of his passengers and crew.
An Air Line Pilot will faithfully discharge the duty he owes the airline that employs him and whose salary makes possible his way of life.
? He will do all within his powers to operate his aircraft efficiently and on schedule in a manner that will not cause damage or unnecessary maintenance.
? He will respect the officers, directors, and supervisors of his airline, remembering that respect does not entail subservience.(Emphasis on subservience. )
? He will faithfully obey all lawful directives given by his supervisors, but will insist and, if necessary, refuse to obey any directives that, in his considered judgment, are not lawful or will adversely affect flight safety. He will remember that in the final analysis the responsibility for safe completion of the flight rests upon his shoulders.(Emphasis on Flight Safety
? He will not knowingly falsify any log or record, nor will he condone such action by other crew members.
? He will remember that a full month?s salary demands a full and fair month?s work. On his days off, he will not engage in any occupation or activity that will diminish his efficiency or bring discredit to his profession.
? He will realize that he represents the airline to all who meet him and will at all times keep his personal appearance and conduct above reproach.(Seen MULTIPLE examples of violations of that since being based in IAH )
? He will give his airline, its officers, directors, and supervisors the full loyalty that is their due, and will refrain from speaking ill of them. If he feels it necessary to reveal and correct conditions that are not conducive to safe operations and harmonious relations, he will direct his criticism to the proper authorities within ALPA.
? He will hold his airline?s business secrets in confidence, and will take care that they are not improperly revealed.
An Air Line Pilot will accept the responsibilities as well as the rewards of command and will at all times so conduct himself both on duty and off as to instill and merit the confidence and respect of his crew, his fellow employees, and his associates within the profession.
? He will know and understand the duties of each member of his crew. If in command, he will be firm but fair, explicit yet tolerant of deviations that do not affect the safe and orderly completion of the flight. He will be efficient yet relaxed, so that the duties of the crew may be carried out in a harmonious manner.
? If in command, he will expect efficient performance of each crew member?s duties, yet he will overlook small discrepancies and refrain from unnecessary and destructive criticism, so that the crew member will retain his self-respect and cooperative attitude. A frank discussion of minor matters of technique and performance after the flight will create goodwill and a desire to be helpful, whereas sharp criticism and peremptory orders at the moment will result only in the breakdown of morale and an inefficient, halting performance of future duties.
? An Air Line Pilot will remember that his is a profession heavily dependent on training during regular operations and, if in command, will afford his flight crew members every reasonable opportunity, consistent with safety and efficiency, to learn and practice. He will endeavor to instill in his crew a sense of pride and responsibility. In making reports on the work and conduct of his crew members, he will avoid personal prejudices, make his reports factual and his criticisms constructive so that actions taken as a result of his reports will improve the knowledge and skill of his crew members, rather than bring discredit, endanger their livelihood, and threaten their standing in the profession.
? While in command, the Air Line Pilot will be mindful of the welfare of his crew. He will see to it that his crew are properly lodged and cared for, particularly during unusual operating conditions. When cancellations result in deadheading, he will ensure that proper arrangements are made for the transportation of his crew before he takes care of himself.
An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.(Example of NOT following this one - Slick Ties at UAL)
? He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards.(Empasis on job security IOW - SCABS)
? He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. Whenever possible, he will attend all meetings of ALPA open to him and will take an active part in its activities and in meetings of other groups calculated to improve air safety and the standing of the profession.
? An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he take advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. If he is called upon to represent ALPA in any dispute, he will do so to the best of his ability, fairly and fearlessly, relying on the influence and power of ALPA to protect him.
? He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. He will cooperate in the upholding of the profession by exchanging information and experience with his fellow pilots and by actively contributing to the work of professional groups and the technical press.
An Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.
? He will be a good citizen of his country, state, and community, taking an active part in their affairs, especially those dealing with the improvement of aviation facilities and the enhancement of air safety.(Did YOU submit the Call to Action in regards to NAI?)
? He will conduct all his affairs in a manner that reflects credit on himself and his profession.
? He will remember that to his neighbors, friends, and acquaintances he represents both the profession and ALPA, and that his actions represent to them the conduct and character of all members of the profession and ALPA.
? He will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.
? He will not publish articles, give interviews, or permit his name to be used in any manner likely to bring discredit to another pilot, the airline industry, the profession, or ALPA.
? He will continue to keep abreast of aviation developments so that his skill and judgment, which heavily depend on such knowledge, may be of the highest order.
Having Endeavored to his utmost to faithfully fulfill the obligations of the ALPA Code of Ethics and Canons for the Guidance of Air Line Pilots, a pilot may consider himself worthy to be called?an AIRLINE PILOT.
And btw wave, wtf man?! On another thread you explain how you can't abide by "slam clickers", I'm simply suggesting sUAL guys stop checking brake accumulator 5+ times [or whatever it takes for them to eventually fail] so the airline can run.
Beers are important, I agree. But I also believe deliberately gaming airworthiness is at least as important. I'd love to read your posts if SWA was having to deal with this
chppr5
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You're showing your ignorance again. We flew the contract summer of 2000, nothing more nothing less.
Also you love bringing up how UAL treated Frontier, how about how CAL treated PEX in their integration. 250 Cap put at the bottom of the CAL Cap list and the rest stapled......after a system bid for CAL that included the PEX equipment but not the pilots.......Sound familiar?
Shrek
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"Yeah umm I'm gunna have toooo.....yeah disagree with that so could you come in on SAT and uhhh on SUN as well..... "Lumberg
Did somebody take your stapler for all that UAL hate?! It IS funny to watch though SLICK tie guy.
Wasn't an ALPA deal. ALPA is suppose to make the difference. And at one time it did.
You are truly pathetic
chppr5
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It has to do with individual's in charge at the time, we are ALPA. They may have misstep with Frontier but they stood up for the industry in '85, more than I can say for the other class of the mid eighties.
Shrek
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I take that as a compliment from a Slick.
Yeah, we hear that runs in your family. Apparently your family member caught it from the sUAL pilot group (pronounced ess-soo-el as explained to me by a brain surgeon flight attendant).
chppr5
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Shrek
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Pathetic and out of line........
Been in 3 unions as a pilot. One closed shop. Always been wearing a pin and toeing the line. You, and 2/3rds of you brain surgeon cohorts, are a joke. Take that how you like.
waveflyer
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Yeah, no dog in this fight and I got to say WTF is wrong with you?
waveflyer
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I don't know much about that flop, I just know you're pretty spring loaded to some whacked out ideas on things-
First rule of unionism is "be productive" in your actions and words.
If you have volunteered for alpa you'd have heard this at some point.
We are dealing with this on some level- there's some moron out there whacking off the ends of our OPC switches in a multi gold medal performance for least effective and weird 'statement' ever
You need to learn not to stick your foot in your mouth. That's a really dumb statement. In view of what was done to FAL, UAL stood up for themselves. You were standing for yourselves and not the union or unity when you signaled to America West & USAir that you were going to do the same to them. Then Brucia exposed you all for what you really are by making you beg for merger policy.
chppr5
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Well since merger policy has been a work in progress and has changed numerous times over the last 6+ decades comparing what FAL went thru and what you perceive we were going to do to AWA/USAIR is comparing apples and oranges. ALPA National is a resource that MY representatives use to represent ME. I would hope UALPA would use/bend existing ALPA National policy to look out for UALPA interests, just as you justify CALPA's merger committees position during SLI arguments (even though they bent the policy till it snapped into little pieces). Make no mistake we are members of UALPA, not DALPA or any other carrier under the ALPA National umbrella. We abide by ALPA National policy and By-Laws but we are a separate entity and should expect our reps to protect us from any other union or pilot group within the laws and policy of our national union. As for the foot in my mouth, I wasn't around in the '80's, I wasn't privy to the goings on at UALPA at the time so I can't speak for them. I do look up to that group though because like it or not they went by policy at the time and in their eyes protected their members, just as I'm sure you thought CAL ALPA did. And most importantly that same group stood up for the ENTIRE piloting profession by walking the line.
Shrek
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Thanks for tripling the amount of SCABS overnight after we merged with your version of unionism. I call that a joke especially if you think IACP was actually a union.
I've always hated scabs but this is a new low. I wish we had f$cked you guys harder than Frontier and Air Wisconsin combined! Your welcome for youre super seniority! You better have your pin on when you are throwing gear for me. Otherwise I'll throw your a$$ out of my cockpit.
Uh, you brought as many as we did really, because there is no damn way your 570s aren't just as guilty as anyone hired here in 83! I flew with a voluntary furlough sUAL guy hired in the late 70s who could not have agreed more with that statement. His words to me: "don't trust anyone hired in the 80s, at either one of these airlines." You junior sUAL guys like to excuse your own. Talk about a "brand of unionism"?!
chppr5
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Flop, you don't get to make up your own facts or redefine SCAB. These numbers are from the master scab list. The 570's may or may not be suspect but they are NOT SCABS, never turned a wheel. UAL- 837, CAL- 1996.........
1. Century Airlines 1932: 1 scab
2. TWA 1946: 2 scabs
3. National Airlines 1948: 101 scabs
4. Western Airlines 1958: 3 scabs
5. Southern Airways 1960: 205 scabs
6. Rio Airways 1976: 43 scabs
7. Wien Air Alaska 1977: 82 scabs
8. Northwest Summary 1978. 34 scabs
9. Continental Airlines 1983: 1,996 scabs
10. Pan American 1985: 139 scabs
11. United Airlines 1985: 837 scabs
12. Eastern Airlines 1989: 2,253 scabs
13. AFAP 1989: 85 scabs
14. Comair 2001: 3 scabs
15. Prinair (year?): 2 scabs
16. Air North (year?): 2 scabs
1. Century Airlines 1932: 1 scab
2. TWA 1946: 2 scabs
3. National Airlines 1948: 101 scabs
4. Western Airlines 1958: 3 scabs
5. Southern Airways 1960: 205 scabs
6. Rio Airways 1976: 43 scabs
7. Wien Air Alaska 1977: 82 scabs
8. Northwest Summary 1978. 34 scabs
9. Continental Airlines 1983: 1,996 scabs
10. Pan American 1985: 139 scabs
11. United Airlines 1985: 837 scabs
12. Eastern Airlines 1989: 2,253 scabs
13. AFAP 1989: 85 scabs
14. Comair 2001: 3 scabs
15. Prinair (year?): 2 scabs
16. Air North (year?): 2 scabs
Credit to you for trying to understand it, but you're not there yet. Remember when Rick D. characterized both USAir and Am West as "purchases, not mergers?" That's important because it's how UALALPA went around ALPA merger policy (both merger and fragmentation) and made sure the FAL guys did not have positions at UAL. Senior UAL would have gone along with it, but 570s and 539s couldn't find any version of merger policy that wouldn't have put a lot of FAL ahead of them. They wanted something done and Rick D did it, and forced National to go along with it. He was ready again to do it two more times. He and UAL ALPA broke merger policy, Jim B and CAL ALPA fixed it. Jim used the process in a way that caused the UAL merger committee to be the champion for the policy. It was a good move really. You could have out voted us, you had a history of abandoning merger policy. Instead you were made to embrace it.
Merger policy was the first correction you guys got, and this list will be the next. Because it's a F-ing joke!! "Never turned a revenue wheel?!" What a stupid backward ass caveat. That's a sUAL only thing and it needs to end. Every other list has pilots on it who did less wrong and contributed less to the cause if a strike than 570s.
Why don't you listen to your own pilots hired in the 1970s? Why are you making these 80s guys your heros?
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chppr5
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570s didn't "walk". They crossed, but according sUAL lore, "they didn't turn a revenue wheel". Which really doesn't cut it when it gets down to it.
We really need to be done with the guys hired in the 80s though. They've had their fair share and I'm done listening to their stories/excuses. All of them!!
We really need to be done with the guys hired in the 80s though. They've had their fair share and I'm done listening to their stories/excuses. All of them!!
waveflyer
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Don't forget the one from Spirit
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