Unions, Why? Do we really need one?

[bobbysamd]

Flying the Line

Excellent post, ~~~^~~~, although your comment about generally there have been more pilots than jobs is a major understatement. I wouldn't say generally; I would say straight-across-the-board historically.

Is this publication available to people like me, who aren't flying and/or are not ALPA members? Sounds like a great read.

I haven't heard the terms "feeder" and "trunk" in years, but really, I don't see a whole lot of difference between that and the regional and mainline relationships of today.

 

[publisher]

Discussion

We ought to stop now as this was probably the most gentlemanly and intelligent discussion in some time.

All of the points here are part of it. Mine were more related to big carrier contracts. It was not a condemnation in anyway but points out some of the side effects and how they influence things.

I was negotiating a contract with a union, not in aviation, and the union rep told me that most of the guys wanted to strike because deer hunting season was the same date as the contract expiriation so they did not want him to settle. He thought we were being fair but needed to make it look good for the boys. Would I agree to meet him at a mediators.

We ended up doing just that. We played cards for 5 hours in the mediators office and came out and said we had agreed. I insisted that the dates for future contracts be changed.

 

[Draginass]

If you don't like unions, try flying for a non-union company as an at will employee and see how you like it. Been there, done that, won't do it again.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree, Draginass.

As a note to the younger pilots, and especially to those who took last week's explanation of my flight instructor job experience to heart:

part of what made the past few months so frustrating for me was that I had agreed to work as an "independent contractor", just as all of the other instructors had done. Consequently, since I was not an actual "employee", I have no unemployment benefits. I will try to avoid a similar arangement in the future. When you soon-to-be CFI's take that first job, I recommend that you try to avoid that type of employment, too.

 

[CF34-3B1]

Re: Flying the Line

Is this publication available to people like me, who aren't flying and/or are not ALPA members? Sounds like a great read..

Amazon.Com has it if you can't get one from ALPA

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying the Line

Thank you. Excellent. I'll look for it.

 

[enigma]

He was a piece of work, wasn't he? I didn't realize that Mr. Reed was Mr. Beech 1900
at Mesa.

Ornstein and Grady were making the point of mine that you quoted. Supply and demand.
Too many people want to be pilots and will work for nothing to do it. It is the same for
other "glamour" professions, such as broadcasting. People want to be big-time disk
jockeys and announcers and don't care how much they're paid. Radio stations don't have
much trouble finding help. I've been there and done that. I never worked in a union shop,
though.

Unions by their definition can affect wages. The flame on Grady Reed is intentional.

Grady Reed ....Mr 1900??????????????????????????????????????

Heck He only passed the type ride because he was management. He and another management type got lost between ICT and DEN when they attempted to deliver N2YV, the first 1900D. To my knowledge, Grady never flew the line. He was hired in 1989 as an
FO but was moved to management before he checked out when Risley found out about his management experience in the Air Force. After Mesa built a bunkhouse across from HQ to
house the pilots/FA's/agents in training, we always made sure we flushed twice to send a 'grady-gram" across the way.
Actually, I never had any personal problem with Grady, but he was NOT a friend to pilots.

I don't have time at present to get too deep into economics, but I will say this. Unions can only affect wages in the short term. Long term, supply and demand will rule.

I previously asked whether anyone knew of the difference between a trade union and an Industrial Affiliation union. No one has, as of yet, addressed this point. I believe in trade
unions. (unions of professionals banded together to uphold the standards of their trade) And I think that as a trade union ALPA has a vital role in maintaining the common good of airline pilots as it pertains to professional standards, safety, protection against arbitrary management actions against individual members, etc.

As a collective bargaining agent, a union can only control wages by "shutting the door" on other pilots. In other words, we legally control the supply.. ONLY AT THE COMPANY THAT OUR CBA IS MADE WITH.

SCOPE is a legal device to achieve this goal, but eventually the market will win. Supply and Demand.

For example, DALPA can control scope within Delta, but it can't do anything about AirTran. In the macro economic environment, other suppliers of the product, in our case air transportation, who have taken advantage of the williness of others to work for less,
will eventually cause the wages to drop. It has something to do with competition. (just a little sarcasm there, sorry)

Bottom line, a union may bring up wages at one particular company, but in the total free market environment, that company will eventually go broke when it is undercut by its competitors who access the true labor market.

Those who work for less are the true enemy.

I'm out of time, More later.

8N

 

[kilomike]

Greedy Reedy

Maybe Grady Reed's name should be "Greedy" Reed!

 

[av8instyle]

Unions are responsible for the low pay of new pilots

Besides the previous points regarding this statement, I'd have to say that airline pay wouldn't be anywhere close to what it is today if it weren't for unions.

 

[bobbysamd]

Grady Reed

I didn't know that Reed and the other Mesa type got lost delivering the first 1900. That's pretty rich. I did know about his AF background and I knew that Risley liked that and made him a "manager." The reason I referred to him as Mr. 1900 was because I had found out later that he managed that part of Mesa or something like that.

I've heard about the Grady valve story, in which he opened a cap to an hydraulic valve under pressure and it spewed forth fluid, on him primarily.

On the other hand, I heard that his son joined Mesa and was actually a sharp guy and nothing like Grady.

I remember clearly how much Risley loved the 1900s. Nothing wrong with that. I always understood the airplane made money with a load factor of something like two pax. I do recall that Risley hated the Brasilias. They seemed to go down often for maintenance and G-d forbid that Risley would have to fork up the extra bucks for maintenance. I always found that to be ironic, considering that Risley had a maintenance background.

Enigma makes a point that basic economics impacts wages in the long term. Also, consider the mood of the country. More history. Remember around the late '70s to '80s how times were tough? The mood of the country was turning conservative and people blamed unions for the moribund times. Anti-union sentiment developed. Companies were demanding givebacks from their unions and received them. Union strength eroded. Remember the Continental and United strikes and the infamous "B" scale business? Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn? Let me throw in two-pilot airplanes. I may be wrong about this, but ALPA expressed concern that these aircraft would eliminate jobs. The companies loved them because they felt that three-pilot airplanes constituted featherbedding. Then, in the late '80s-early '90s, all businesses scaled back and demanded more work from fewer employees, and more givebacks. Then, whaddaya know? With trimmed-down workforces companies began making money again. Many people would opine that the mood of the country during those years indeed affected wages during those years.

I agree, people who work for less than scale hurt others. But I don't see much you can do about it if the jobs are there and people take them.