Unions, Why? Do we really need one?

[Timebuilder]

You are right, Bobby. I remember those days. We can add the Chrysler bailout and the decline of American Made Steel. Wait a minute....that sounds familiar.... .

 

[Pikey]

A better question should be, why do companys hate unions?

Why was there so much blood shed during the infancy of the organized labor movement?

Why did Delta spend money during an ecomomic downturn to prevent its flight attendants from joining the AFA?

 

[Timebuilder]

A better question should be, why do companys hate unions?

1) Money.

2) Power.

With the presence of a union, another entity must be provided for in the steering of the company. The contract becomes the manual for daily activity, and management must conform its desires to the contract. Management sees this as a constriction on their ability to make daily decisions, and they must face a process for grievances brought by employees. In effect, management must "share" power and profits based on the agreements reached in the contract.

Generally speaking, most management groups would prefer that they be able to run their companies without these added complications.

 

[bobbysamd]

Union dislike

I agree with Timebuilder. A lot has to do with salaries. Employee compensation is one of the biggest expenses for companies. It is axiomatic that to raise profits you cut expenses. Therefore, if a non-union airline can attract pilots of equal quality as a union shop and pay them less, it has cut expenses. Not to mention fewer benies.

Many companies oppose pay according to scale. They'd prefer to pay, or not pay, according to merit. Let's say we have two pilots. Somehow, the company feels that Pilot A, who makes himself/herself available for extra reserve and comes in to work in the training department on days off is more valuable than Pilot B, who sits on interview boards on days off and chairs the United Way committee. Let's say both are 747 captains. Obviously, both pilots are valuable, but there is no objective criteria to evaluate merit. With scale, both are compensated equally. Fairly? Weigh it against the industry.

Now, once again, the other point of view might be my dad's business philosophy. His business was dirty and hazardous and he regarded his employees to be a valuable resource. He wanted to pay them better than any union contract, but was stymied by that when he had the union.

Power. I will not say that companies "oppress" workers. That sounds too much like Karl Marx or Hegel, perhaps. But many businesses and companies take unfair advantage of their employees and their cooperative nature, and single out certain employees or groups of employees. For example, I worked in a lawfirm in which the principal attorney habitually kept staff late and heaped unreasonable amounts of work on them. Staff worked long hours and for no extra pay. The principal got away with it because she considered staff to be "professionals" and exempt from overtime. Not that a union would have been practical in our small lawfirm, but if we could have spoken up with one voice we might have been able to combat this abuse.

 

[enigma]

Re: Union dislike

Power. I will not say that companies "oppress" workers. That sounds too much like Karl Marx or Hegel, perhaps. But many businesses and companies take unfair advantage of their employees and their cooperative nature, and single out certain employees or groups of employees. For example, I worked in a lawfirm in which the principal attorney habitually kept staff late and heaped unreasonable amounts of work on them. Staff worked long hours and for no extra pay. The principal got away with it because she considered staff to be "professionals" and exempt from overtime. [/B]

First. This is a nice polite debate. Thanks

It beats all of the name calling that most of these degenerate into.

I must say that unless those law office workers were somehow indentured, or slaves, it was their CHOICE to accept the extra work. I believe that it is safe to say, that in the US of A, we the workers have the right to quit an oppresive job.
I know that I am painting with a broad brush, but in our free market system, employees set the wages and determine the work rules.
regards
8N

 

[bobbysamd]

Well, yeah, but .....

No, we couldn't refuse the work. Or, we could and she'd likely can us. So, this lawyer had us by the you-know-whats (apologies for the horrible mixed metaphor). Maybe if we had the Paralegal Union I could have filed a grievance or something with my steward.

She told me several times that I could not go home until I finished a project for X client. You have to understand that emergencies and rushes come up from time to time in lawfirms and sometimes you have to stay late. It comes with the territory. However, with this lawyer, to her everything was an emergency. In reality, we had few true emergencies.

This was not an emergency but one time, she started a client conference around 4ish. I caught the assignment. It continued until 7. There was no way I could extricate myself from it to call my wife. You had to be there. You had to understand this lawyer's personality. Once again, my wife had to keep my dinner warm.

And, you're right again. We could resign, but finding a new job, as we all know well, is not always easy. Sometimes, you're stuck between dealing with the "oppression" or not work and have no paycheck. After a time, I had all I could stand. I started looking and found a better job that paid par for paralegals in my city. This other lawyer was underpaying me based on my experience.

This is obviously not the Paralegal Message Board. I provide these experiences to make a point and maybe further our very friendly discussion (and Grady zapping).

Publisher has weighed in. Are there any more aviation management types who would care to provide their points of view?

 

[enigma]

Re: Well, yeah, but .....

Bobbysamd,
You say that the lawyer could have canned you. Why do you think that she could can you? I would venture to say that she could can you only because she could replace you. If no other paralegals were willing to take the crap, she would either have to treat you better, or do with out a paralegal.

It's a very simple reality, and it applies to every situation. If you are irreplacable, you can write your own check. Why does Michael Jordan get paid millions every year to play basketball? Because he can't be replaced. I can be replaced by any breathing pilot with a ATP and a DC9 rating. And while there is only one MJ there are a couple of thousand jurassic jet drivers. If I don't like the wages, the company will have me replaced tommorrow.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but supply and demand are not really arguable.

gotta go check on my laundry, later
8N

 

[publisher]

points

Going back to the original poster, the points that have been made here are all valid. They have certainly been posted in a manner above what the RJDC debate has.

Unionism in the US has in general been declinging over the last two generations. The reasons, several.

First, the safety issue has been largely wiped out. There are many other ways, groups, and legislative interest that has made this argument pretty low on the priorities.

Secondly, we are a country made up more and more of small business and entrepenuers. They do not have the time or money for this madness.

Thirdly, many recognized that organized labor was pretty much so large it was as big a problem as a solution.

Fourth, no business operates in a vacumn. We are still a supply and demand country and business. When things get our of whack, the natural process takes over. This leads to niche companies with a different model. Think SWA and Alaska.

Like I have said before, it is not a simple subject. Many on these boards are not.

 

[flydog]

Publisher:

Safety issue wiped out?

If it wasnt for ALPA pilots would be on duty 24 hrs straight. The safety issue in aviation is NOT largely wiped out. If it wasnt for unions no one would be there to back up a Captain who denied a trip because it was unsafe. Pilots who fly 91 or 135 dont have this luxury. At my company and every corporate jet operator I have worked at if you turned down a trip because the owner wanted to fly into Aspen and it was night and not legal you kight as well clear out your desk the next morning.

Also try being passed up for upgrade because your company decided to hire a guy with ZERO JET TIME because he was willing to pay for their own type rating and simuflite check $15,000 !!!!! Is this safe? Hell no! Does it save money and put more profit on the so called small businessman's entrepreneurial pockets? Definitely

As far as entrepreneurs and small business they may not have time for the madness as you call it but they do have a profit motive. Most will put money ahead of safety time and time again. If you dont think its true fly 135 for a while and see how many rules get bent to make an extra buck. Again its a safety issue

The reasons unions exist in the airline business is because of a requirement of highly skilled personnel to crew and fix the airplanes. Couple this with the inability of most airlines to weather a prolonged strike and you have incredible leverage to bring about changes in safety, pay and working conditions which the employess are ethically and legally entitled to.

Before you make opinions on the necessity of unions you need to fly the line for a while.

Of course I know you are going to come back with some witty comment about "supply and demand" and "..if the market bears it..." but nothing can justify saving money at the expense of the life of a passenger

 

[bobbysamd]

My former lawyer

Yes, absolutely, she could have replaced me within a couple of weeks, though she liked my work. My state is an at-will employment state, which means an employer can terminate an employee at any time for no reason and an employee can leave at any time for no reason. I don't think that's fair. At-will employment is skewed toward employers, though the doctrine has undergone modifications in recent years.

There are plenty of paralegals looking for work, which meant that I would have joined them and done without a paycheck for G-d knows how long. I chose between putting up with her BS and receiving a paycheck or opting out immediately and not receiving a paycheck. Had there been a union, perhaps there would have been some kind of work rule or agreement that would have forced her to compensate me for all the extra time I put in or outlawed her from working staff to the bone. Maybe there would have been some kind of grievance procedure through which I could have complained to my steward.

This is not a good example. I bring it up to provide a non-aviation example to illustrate why workers formed unions. To combat abuse and unfair treatment by management. Better wages and working conditions.

Publisher raises some points. Think SWA. But haven't they organized, finally? Indeed, unions are not a simple subject.

PS - I thought Southwest had organized, but wasn't sure.

 

[flx757]

Interesting that after Publisher opines about declining unionism, the two examples he cites are both union shops; Alaska, with ALPA and SWA, with SWAPA. And I wouldn't characterize SWA's organizing as being "finally". They have been organized for some time. In fact, their current 10-year contract becomes amendable in 2004.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, Flydog . . .

Don't forget about street captain hiring, which bypasses FOs eligible for upgrading, and stand-up overnights.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Did you know that EVERY work group at Southwest is in a union? Are you suprized by this fact?

I have worked for non-union airlines before, and I will never do that again. It's not safe, they treat you horribly, and the only thing you can do about it is quit. I'm not sure why almost every other business tries to treat their people well, but the airlines seem to have to be forced to do this, except for perhaps Southwest. But, they are still in a union.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Reguarding the question on ALPA national having control over the local MEC's bargaining, it depends on the situation. During the recent Comair strike, a letter was sent to all Comair pilots from ALPA national, making it clear that voting no on the TA may have caused them to take their support away from us. Remember that we were living on ALPA strike benefits while we were out, and the contingency fund that many people contributed to, only went to the neediest of families. I'm not sure, but I don't think much of it was distributed. I don't know where it is now, but I heard ALPA national now gets it. I hope this helps you out.

 

[Rvrrat]

Folks,
Thank you all for outstanding points made; this thread brings to mind a number of conversations my dad & I have had about unions, management and the pros/cons thereof. It is good for me to be refreshed on the subject since I hope to be in the profession in the near future.
While the two most pertinent points my dad made may seem oversimplified in relationship to the rest of this thread they seem valid yet. 1: Unions, regardless of what one thinks of their actions or policies at the moment, resemble pendulums. At one end of the arc the unions are exceedingly strong; at the other end, generally ineffective. 2: The interaction of unions and companies resemble dancing and marriages; it always takes two to dance gracefully & one best be da@#ed sure of who one is getting involved with before making a choice. If either of the two parties happen to be dishonest, unjust or seeking to further "hidden agendas", there is bound to be strife.
Two generations of living amoung and observing United Mine Workers, Steel Workers of America, United Auto Workers, and affiliates bear out the fact that basic issues are not limited to just one union or industry.

 

[bobbysamd]

More "solidarity" food for thought

My dad and I had similar conversations as Rvrat and his father. I felt that as a boss my father didn't empathize with employees. But, once again, the irony was that he provided better conditions, pay and benefits than what the union wanted.

Don't forget the PATCO strike and how it ended. I realize that it is distinguished from our discussion because it was an illegal strike. The government outlasted that union and it went away. A good many of the PATCO members never returned to work for ATC.

I mention the PATCO strike as more food for thought. I know that many people will remember and how President Reagan handled it from twenty-one years ago.

 

[flx757]

Exactly....it was illegal. And PATCO may have "gone away" only to be replaced by NATCA.

 

[publisher]

Clear Up

To clear up a few misconceptions about my comments.

I was speaking in the context of all unions in all industries when I mentioned safety. If you will recall, child labor, sweat shops, etc., were part of the original basis. Many of these things are now addressed through legislation and law policed by governmental bodies.

The niche reference is applicable to companies that start and come to a certain place in the market. In trying to deal with all the aspects of these companies, union contracts sometimes lock the company into doing business a certain way. Along comes competition operating in a whole different way. Original company has a hard time responding in the market.

Frankly, you are assuming that I have a position in this and am trying to defend something. I am merely throwing out some aspects that are gleeaned from history or may spur you to think of things in a more complete way.