Unhappy ExpressJet Pilots...

[www.]

That's true. Skywest/ASA were able to underbid us and we got stuck with the CPA they negotiated. Not much of a rescue when they were responsible for putting a whole below the waterline though.

And what did you think Jerry and CAL were going to do? Invite you over for tea?

History does repeat itself. Look at Airtran and SWA. Herb, and now GK, have always meant what they said. Morris Air, Midway etc... Jerry is apart of that same cloth.

 

[www.]

The express jet pilot contract is a very small part of doing buisness, you guys need to look up Macro Economics some day. This sounds just like the argument that the United pilots contract put them in trouble, if that were true after two bankruptcies that gutted that contract the airline should have been immediately thriving which clearly did not happen. Bad management will always tell you it is because your contract is to blame and pilots always believe it. We truly are our own worst enemies.

I agree, bad management. Just like GM, Chrysler and the UAW. Management gave and gave and gave until the product couldn't pay for the overhead.

 

[Dannone]

If I hear one more asa retard say the pilots are the reason for expressjet losing money I am gonna throw up, if u believe it just shut the f up

 

[www.]

1. Nope, Speed...., I mean wwww., that's not really it.

2. You see, in 2008, somebody (SKW) broke it (XJT). Later, they (SKW) were allowed to buy it (XJT).


3. Good point, but remember that just like UAL in your example, most employees as well as lower level management took concessions. NOT just the pilots.

1. It's Peggy! I thought we got past this already.

2. So you still think that you could have survived when CAL pulled all those ERJs from their colors? Yeah..Right.


There is a great deal of info in the SEC reports for XJT over the last 5 to 7 years along with the lack of long term flying. Yep your former management was a very large part of the problem and they are gone now. A shift in tactics might be smart right about now. I don't think this management team will go down the same path as your former one.

 

[www.]

If I hear one more asa retard say the pilots are the reason for expressjet losing money I am gonna throw up, if u believe it just shut the f up

Grow up junior.

 

[Texx]

Grow up junior.

ohhh Dannone are you going to let him get away with that?

 

[Nevets]

And what did you think Jerry and CAL were going to do? Invite you over for tea?

History does repeat itself. Look at Airtran and SWA. Herb, and now GK, have always meant what they said. Morris Air, Midway etc... Jerry is apart of that same cloth.

Just pointing out that your assertion is incorrect. Our contract wasn't the reason why we were losing money. We have a cost plus CPA. JA came in a changed that CPA with assumptions we would take 16% pay cuts to bring us down to the average SKY/ASA pilot compensation. It really wasn't after that that we started bleeding money in our CPA flying.

I agree, it was perfect whipsaw by JA just like others of his same rag.

So you still think that you could have survived when CAL pulled all those ERJs from their colors? Yeah..Right.


There is a great deal of info in the SEC reports for XJT over the last 5 to 7 years along with the lack of long term flying. Yep your former management was a very large part of the problem and they are gone now. A shift in tactics might be smart right about now. I don't think this management team will go down the same path as your former one.

We did find flying for those airplanes. It's all in those SEC filling you claim to have read. In fact, we were in the middle of securing the USAir flying that Skywest just got up until they killed that when the buyout was in progress.

Yes, we would have been fine IF Skywest wouldn't have whipsawed our CPA with CAL in 08.

 

[Dannone]

I am quite senior and don't usually post but how stupid do you have to be to spout that bs? No pilot group causes financial problems management does. Again I don't want to flipping hear it. You are only hurting the whole pilot group by being so stupid, so just shut up!!!

 

[IBNAV8R]

You think CAL gives a toss about the employee contract of a contractor? They care about the bottom line. Perhaps your cost-plus CPA was costing too much and CAL was looking for an alternative. The branded flying was definitely NOT a sustainable business model.

Your scow was sinking whether you want to admit it or not. Jerry threw you a lifeline. He went to CAL and said, "I think I can save her." I'm sure CAL replied, "What's in it for us?" Of course Jerry was interested in the salvage rights - he's a friggin' business man. Now you're pissed off because he didn't give you the Queen Mary.

Here's a news flash, my friends. ALL regionals are being squeezed right now. You XJT peeps are in a much better place than you would have been. But now you want to piss on the guy that threw you a lifeline?

 

[Dannone]

I say piss on anyone that doesn't want to be treated better than we have been lately. Jerry didn't throw anyone a lifeline. He saw a chance to make money. Expressjet pilots see a chance to improve their lives with a new contract. Same thing!!!! Nothing Personal in either case, both just trying to get what is best for themselves!!! I don't even work for Expressjet (well at least until they change the name). I think I would rather though, at least those guys have some balls!!! Seems like Joe Merchant is leaking management blue juice into the coffee maker and the ASA pilots are slamming it down their throats!!!

 

[Nevets]

You think CAL gives a toss about the employee contract of a contractor? They care about the bottom line. Perhaps your cost-plus CPA was costing too much and CAL was looking for an alternative. The branded flying was definitely NOT a sustainable business model.

Your scow was sinking whether you want to admit it or not. Jerry threw you a lifeline. He went to CAL and said, "I think I can save her." I'm sure CAL replied, "What's in it for us?" Of course Jerry was interested in the salvage rights - he's a friggin' business man. Now you're pissed off because he didn't give you the Queen Mary.

Here's a news flash, my friends. ALL regionals are being squeezed right now. You XJT peeps are in a much better place than you would have been. But now you want to piss on the guy that threw you a lifeline?

No, they don't care. But they found a whipsaw, JA, they could use to get our management to change the contract or else.

And I was NOT taking about branded flying. All but two aircraft were in CPA deals. There was also negotiations for flying for LCC.

JA did NOT throw a lifeline. He was giving us enough rope to hang ourselves with. We told him no thanks, we'll just have deal with your 16% paycut assumption of a CPA our management had to swallow, he put a hole on our boat.

That's what's so ironic about this. He broke it and now he is stuck with us because he has now bought us. Jury is still out on whether this is ultimately a good business decision, the way he went about treating his future employees that is. He's no different than most airline CEOs.

 

[dojetdriver]

1. It's Peggy! I thought we got past this already.

Maybe Peggy (sue) needs to get married, or at a minimum go find a boyfriend.

2. So you still think that you could have survived when CAL pulled all those ERJs from their colors? Yeah..Right.

Had CAL elected to pull those airframes, yet operate at the SAME cost plus CPA, how can you think that XJT would NOT have survived? Just would have been a smaller company, at least at that time.

You think CAL gives a toss about the employee contract of a contractor? They care about the bottom line. Perhaps your cost-plus CPA was costing too much and CAL was looking for an alternative.

True, CAL was simply doing what they needed to put the screws to their larget SJP. However, it was CAL management that put themselves into an expensive agreement to being with in the pump and dump IPO spinoff. Between that and the renegotiation in 2008, there were cost cutting measures exercised. One of them being the cost+ amount being reduced IIRC.

Your scow was sinking whether you want to admit it or not. Jerry threw you a lifeline. He went to CAL and said, "I think I can save her." I'm sure CAL replied, "What's in it for us?" Of course Jerry was interested in the salvage rights - he's a friggin' business man. Now you're pissed off because he didn't give you the Queen Mary.

I think you have this slightly backwards. JA was NOT "throwing a lifeline". You do know what he planned on doing with XJT had that buyout been successful, DON'T you? Also, IIRC, JA didn't go to CAL, it was more along the lines of CAL using SKW to leverage the cost down.

Here's a news flash, my friends. ALL regionals are being squeezed right now. You XJT peeps are in a much better place than you would have been. But now you want to piss on the guy that threw you a lifeline?

Here's a news flash for you. Not sure how long you been doing this, but it's not the FIRST time that regionals have been squeezed. It was worse, way worse during the BK's. And it was going on well before 9/11 on varying levels. USAir was one one of the pioneers at leveraging costs down as well as playing one regional off against another to lower feeder costs.

 

[Nevets]

However, it was CAL management that put themselves into an expensive agreement to being with in the pump and dump IPO spinoff. Between that and the renegotiation in 2008, there were cost cutting measures exercised. One of them being the cost+ amount being reduced IIRC.

Not to mention the tens of millions they made on that IPO and subsequent selling of the remaining 49% of shares they owned in the years to follow. They got more out of that IPO than they paid in the cost plus CPA. Shrewd people over there.

 

[IBNAV8R]

He didn't "break it". You guys were the proverbial mole standing out. CAL would have dumped you if you didn't give them a better contract - and there were a dozen regionals who would have gladly stepped in. With no CAL contract and branded flying bleeding red like a teen horror film, XJT was already sinking and about to be torpedoed.

I'm not saying Jerry had altruistic goals, and you could even say he took advantage of the situation when you were in trouble, but you guys have jobs BECAUSE of him stepping in and not in spite of it. Perhaps you could hold your heads a little higher if the likes of Ornstein had bailed you out.

Previous strategies have been to let an airline fail completely and just pick up the assets and hire the people we wanted. I can tell you, even then, those guys were ecstatic to have a job and NOT be working for Mr. Risley.

 

[Nevets]

He didn't "break it". You guys were the proverbial mole standing out. CAL would have dumped you if you didn't give them a better contract - and there were a dozen regionals who would have gladly stepped in. With no CAL contract and branded flying bleeding red like a teen horror film, XJT was already sinking and about to be torpedoed.

I'm not saying Jerry had altruistic goals, and you could even say he took advantage of the situation when you were in trouble, but you guys have jobs BECAUSE of him stepping in and not in spite of it. Perhaps you could hold your heads a little higher if the likes of Ornstein had bailed you out.

Previous strategies have been to let an airline fail completely and just pick up the assets and hire the people we wanted. I can tell you, even then, those guys were ecstatic to have a job and NOT be working for Mr. Risley.

Without CAL being able to use Inc as a whipsaw, there was no way to get XJT to give up the ~10 years left on the current CPA. Did you actually read the SEC filings or are you just making things up?

He did help break it and now he is stuck with us for better or worse. Thats yet to be seen.

 

[dojetdriver]

He didn't "break it".

NOPE, it 2008 he broke, and recently he bought it.

You guys were the proverbial mole standing out. CAL would have dumped you if you didn't give them a better contract - and there were a dozen regionals who would have gladly stepped in.

Possibly, did anybody have 200+ 50 seat aircraft ready to go back then? Again, it was highly possible, but it would have been the standard "mutually assured destruction" had they gone that far. XJT needs CAL, CAL needs XJT. Just like SKY needs UAL, UAL needs SKW, etc etc etc.

Previous strategies have been to let an airline fail completely and just pick up the assets and hire the people we wanted. I can tell you, even then, those guys were ecstatic to have a job and NOT be working for Mr. Risley.

See above, there's NO way J-Lo and JA could have let the crap hit the fan, pick up the pieces, and re-spool up to the feed level that CAL needs. Just not realistic. Although Jerry thought he could probably pull it off.

Not to mention the tens of millions they made on that IPO and subsequent selling of the remaining 49% of shares they owned in the years to follow. They got more out of that IPO than they paid in the cost plus CPA. Shrewd people over there.

Shrewd indeed, but brilliant from an airline management perspective.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Without CAL being able to use Inc as a whipsaw, there was no way to get XJT to give up the ~10 years left on the current CPA. Did you actually read the SEC filings or are you just making things up?

He did help break it and now he is stuck with us for better or worse. Thats yet to be seen.

Well riddle me this. If you had such an iron-clad cost-plus contract, for ten years to come, how could Jerry have whipsawed you/us? Then, to purchase XJT with that much time left on such a sweet, iron-clad contract, why would anyone in their right mind undercut themselves? Even if they bought it just to flip the shares, why not milk that sweet deal for 10 more contractual years. Just to screw over the pilots???

Admittedly, I haven't read the filings but something here just doesn't add up.

 

[Flyerdan]

Can anyone point out a HAPPY pilot group?

Anyone? Anyone?

 

[CiFIknow]

Well riddle me this. If you had such an iron-clad cost-plus contract, for ten years to come, how could Jerry have whipsawed you/us? Then, to purchase XJT with that much time left on such a sweet, iron-clad contract, why would anyone in their right mind undercut themselves? Even if they bought it just to flip the shares, why not milk that sweet deal for 10 more contractual years. Just to screw over the pilots???

Admittedly, I haven't read the filings but something here just doesn't add up.

Here's the Cliff's Notes version of what went down from a former XJT'er who was there when it happened:

Nevets is wrong when he said that we had a 10 year CPA in effect when SKYW first tried to buy XJT in 2008. Actually, our CPA with CAL was amendable in 2012.

What happened was a phone call from either St. George to Houston or Houston to St. George occurred. I believe it was the latter. Anyhow, said phone call was made to try to break CAL away from it's current contract with XJT. SKYW "negotiated" a rate at which they "said" they would be able to fly the XJT flying for CAL "if" they bought XJT. Of course this rate was based on many assumptions of what their cost of doing business was. SKYW made their offer on the contingency that XJT ALPA would give up their scope clause in their contract. (This is where it gets fishy) SKYW knew XJT ALPA would not give up scope, and therefore I don't believe the first attempt to purchase XJT was in any way genuine.

But, moving on. After SKYW offered to buy us and fly for CAL cheaper, CAL Management comes to XJT management and offers a three-option ultimatum. Option #1: Agree to be purchased by SKYW; Option #2) Agree to fly for the rates "offered" by SKYW if they had purchased XJT; or #3) Face systematic dismantlement when our CPA came due in 2012.

The scope deal was SKYW's escape clause. They knew XJT ALPA would never agree to giving up our scope. SKYW could have negotiated a rate at which they paid CAL for every flight they flew. It was NEVER a serious attempt to buy us. CAL called JA and said "let's make a deal". And to rub more salt in the wound, SKYW got a 5-plus million dollar parting gift from CAL for playing the game.

Anyhow XJT management, faced with the above ultimatum, agreed to be bent over and signed a "new" CPA with CAL agreeing to fly for the phony rates that SKYW said they would be able to fly for. And ever since then it has been trying to gain "cost savings" to try to get us profitable under the new rates that SKYW "negotiated" for us.

Nevets had it wrong when he said we had a rock solid 10 year CPA when SKYW "tried" to purchase XJT the first time. We had a rock-solid CPA until 2012. What XJT was facing was basically a threat to end the airline when 2012 came if we didn't agree to fly for the rates that SKYW "said" they would do the XJT flying for "if" they had made the purchase.

My belief is that the initial attempt to buy XJT was not serious and CAL used SKYW to break the CPA they had with XJT. Therefore yes, SKYW broke XJT and profited in the process to a tune of over $5 million. Now they bought XJT. You broke it, you fix it. You can't argue with the facts.

 

[paid4training]

I don't know, another point of view is that you have so many MOUs and LOAs because your contract has needed so much fixing. Did you guys MOU the ability to be reassigned via ACARS?



And where is it you think we are now?

Well you are not XJT INc. independent of Skywest, ASA. If it were not for Skywest buying XJT, cal/United would have parked most if not all aircraft in the desert and the pilots would be out on their butts!!!! If you think those retro paychecks didn't lead to XJT independents demise, you need a reality check.