Ugly DAL/ASA rumor

[DaveGriffin]

But you left out these numbers about how many businessmen want to fly on RJs for long hours and want to be productive at the same time:

RJs: 0% | mainline aircraft with a first class seat 100%

How about asking businessmen which aircraft they would rather fly on with a severely obese person next to them:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with a chance of going to first 100%

How about asking businessmen who have bladder problems which aircraft they prefer:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with 3 or more lavs 100%

This is typical head-in-the-sand, talk-down the competition from the MEC apologists. They are trying to talk away the inevitable tide of industry change and evolution.

Back in the late 90’s, when SWA was still considered the poor man’s competition; all we heard from Delta pilots was businessmen would NOT fly SWA because there was no seat assignment, no first class, no preferential boarding and nothing to eat but peanuts. The Delta pilots, who were ”real” pilots, demeaned the SWA pilots as low paid, semi-professionals. They couldn’t have been more wrong.

Back in the negotiations leading up to CY2K, we heard from the 30% strike supporters that the pilots are not management, they cannot be expected to think or act like management, that they are only hourly workers who must negotiate the best labor deal they can, just like their blue-collar AFL-CIO brethren in other fields. This was the strategy of the more activist, civilian trained pilots who were trying to overcome the strong influence in the union of the military trained pilots who came from the officer corps and by tradition DID think like management.

Now, in the lead-up to CY2005, the MEC has the audacity to position itself in the reverse role, assuming the personae and demeanor of business analyst and management critic. The PR spin is that it’s not so much negotiating for the pilots, as much as it is seeking to protect and ensure the competitive viability and future of Delta. That’s the joke of the century. But it serves the seniors' stall strategy.

Now General Lee is trying to convince himself that passengers do not like the RJ. Ha ha......that's why the last 4 years been all about scoping the RJ and redirecting RJ growth to mainline.

The industry is changing and the MEC continues to fight it. But fight it or not, the future cannot be changed. The seniors recognize this and realize they can stall until their time in the sun is up. That is why they will use every trick in the book to make sure that the lion’s share of the remaining dollar flow for the next 3-5 years goes to them. Everyone else is on their own and out of luck.

 

[Vortilon]

You sound like you are in high school with all this talk of "seniors". Whats the matter, did one of them try and sell you a pool-pass?

 

[DaveGriffin]

The civy trained "juniors" just aren't that plugged in, but they are great Kool-aide drinkers, when the "seniors" are selling the drinks.

 

[Lear70]

Now General Lee is trying to convince himself that passengers do not like the RJ. Ha ha......that's why the last 4 years been all about scoping the RJ and redirecting RJ growth to mainline.

Ummm... do you fly an RJ? If you DID, you'd understand what we're talking about when we say passengers DON'T like the RJ. They b*tch about it every time they have to ride on one and you're not there to hear the complaints of every business guy that gets off.

It's small, the seat pitch is extremely restrictive unless you're sitting upright like a board, the cushions are thin and uncomfortable, if you're 6' 0" or taller you can't stand up in the cabin on the 2+ hour flights without hitting your head, and the business travelers ALWAYS grumble at you as they exit, no matter if you were on-time (or even early), had a bump-free flight, you didn't put the tail in the air by putting out flaps 20 at max flap extension speed (if you're slower it doesn't pitch so badly), and had the smoothest landing of your entire career... WHY are they still grumbling? Because it's an uncomfortable ride with longer and longer leg lengths every time they turn around.

Do they still buy the tickets? You betcha, for every reason counted before - they like the frequency and it avoids overnight stays the night before or night after an important meeting they have to be at or gets them back home for that next meeting they can't miss.

The point? Painting DALPA and the Delta pilots as self-serving is extremely naive, not to mention antagonistic. These guys aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot (or head) by refusing concessions that needlessly endanger their parent company's ability to function as a business, but neither are they going to give away everything they've gained, and the General is right about a lot of things, INCLUDING that eventually the use of the RJ's is going to max out at some level (every analyst has predicted the same thing). Why will it max out? The simple economics of CASM versus RASM.

Yes, the industry is changing... not only towards increased RJ use, but also towards higher RJ pay rates and quality of life. As pilots realize they're going to be flying these RJ's longer and fewer pilots are going to see major airline seats and/or pay, they're going to eventually start demanding a liveable quality of life. Additionally, when the RJ market caps out, and the explosive growth going on at the regionals stops, those pilots will take an even HARDER look at their pay and QOL.

We've already seen it starting at Comair, Air Wisconsin, now Continental Express and more as these companies recognize the importance of THEIR OWN SCOPE to avoid Mesa tactics and secure their own flying future. Don't believe me? Get a copy of some of the "regional" airline's contracts and compare them to the last two they've obtained - HUGE increases in QOL as they realize they're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Furloughed: it's not a software glitch, it's simply a matter of aerodynamics. The airplane SHOULD have had slats, and flaps 8 would have been nice, but since it doesn't have the slats and most operators didn't pay for flaps 8, and since the flaps make up a LARGE portion of the airfoil, when they extend to 20 degrees in a couple seconds, if you're in the upper range of the max flap extension speed, it pitches like a mother fu*ker.

Slowing to minimum Flaps 0 vref before putting out flaps 20 helps considerably. The only "fix" for it would be to dramatically slow the speed at which they come out, which might cause more harm than good.

 

[FL000]

Ummm... do you fly an RJ? If you DID, you'd understand what we're talking about when we say passengers DON'T like the RJ. They b*tch about it every time they have to ride on one and you're not there to hear the complaints of every business guy that gets off.

It's small, the seat pitch is extremely restrictive unless you're sitting upright like a board, the cushions are thin and uncomfortable, if you're 6' 0" or taller you can't stand up in the cabin on the 2+ hour flights without hitting your head, and the business travelers ALWAYS grumble at you as they exit, no matter if you were on-time (or even early), had a bump-free flight, you didn't put the tail in the air by putting out flaps 20 at max flap extension speed (if you're slower it doesn't pitch so badly), and had the smoothest landing of your entire career... WHY are they still grumbling? Because it's an uncomfortable ride with longer and longer leg lengths every time they turn around.

I think this is a bit of hyperbole. These problems do exist, but I find that the vast majority leave the plane with a smile on their face and thank us for a nice ride. The ONLY time I receive complaints is when we are extremely late, the the levee breaks and we hear everything that was wrong with their day.

I was a DH in a rear center seat on a 757 to DFW recently, and I have to say I thought I was on candid camera when I saw the pitch. I would much rather be on an RJ than in that seat again. The paradox, of course, is that I'd rather see more 75s in the air than RJ's.

 

[wms]

We have flaps 8 and the largest balloon is from flaps 0 to flaps 8. It's not software or slats. It's the fact that the two-speed stab trim works at high speed when the flaps are in motion and the AP is on. Maybe there are some operators that don't have flaps 8 on their CRJs, as far as I know all DCI operators do, but some use flaps 20 for normal takeoffs.

As for the rest of your post I agree with the comparisons in comfort between the RJ and ML aircraft. When I commute I shake my head at the 6-footers that have to sit sideways in their seats, or the people who need to use the table next to them for their laptops. It's not a good way to be for more than 1 1/2-2 hours.

But things will change when the issues are resolved between DAL and DALPA. There was no doubt that as capacity moved down to smaller jets the RJ fleet would saturate before long, and it has reached that point. Now capacity will begin to move up again, it has to for profitability's sake. DAL knows it but will wait to make the shift until there is a new agreement. that may be why they're not fighting the recall. Maybe they know they'll need those pilots as capacity shifts back to ML. Already we've been upgrading a lot more flights from 50s to 70s, and there are plenty of 70 seat routes that are consistently oversold and could be ML segments.

 

[DaveGriffin]

……Painting DALPA and the Delta pilots as self-serving is extremely naive, not to mention antagonistic……….

Lear;

It’s only naïve if you let them tell what a great job they are doing for the furloughees.

1. Cobra for furloughees: average for each pilot is about the cost per month of a cable subscription with the movie package.
2. Secret Santa: $14 per pilot (if everyone donated, which didn’t happen).

So for a minimal out-of-pocket expense, the pilots with a job get a good night’s sleep with a clear conscience AND they keep the furloughees on the plantation………the furloughees are so grateful that they even threw a BBQ party for the pilots.

With the “so called” recall, which is being trumpeted as a major accomplishment of the MEC, they now have a significant bargaining chip in its negotiations with the company. You can bet your seniority number that this bargaining chip is going to be used to negotiate terms that primarily benefit of the seniors on the list, not the ones who need it.

It’s the classic “rich get richer” scenario. Now that is what I call “antagonistic”.

Note for Volt: the term “seniors” refers to the pilots on the seniority list who hold the most senior numbers, say the top 4,000.

 

[Lear70]

We have flaps 8 and the largest balloon is from flaps 0 to flaps 8. It's not software or slats. It's the fact that the two-speed stab trim works at high speed when the flaps are in motion and the AP is on. Maybe there are some operators that don't have flaps 8 on their CRJs, as far as I know all DCI operators do, but some use flaps 20 for normal takeoffs.

Pinnacle doesn't own a single Flaps 8 CRJ and has no plans to according to management. That said,,,

The pitching effect has nothing to do with the trim... The 20-, 30-, and 55- series Lears have the same thing, low-speed trim flaps-up, high-speed trim bias flaps out of 0, and they do NOT pitch like this aircraft does.

In truth, there would be a problem if the trim COULDN'T run faster with the flaps down, simply because of the dramatic lift incurred when you start bringing in flaps. Don't believe me? Next time you get a chance, try the following:

Autopilot off, flaps up, speed steady at 200 KIAS, trim for level flight.

Take your hands off the controls and select flaps 8 (or 20, depending on operator). Watch as the aircraft pitches up and starts climbing at 1000 fpm.

Now do the same thing again, but maintain altitude and airspeed. How much forward elevator control and/or stab trim do you have to put in to maintain altitude? What kind of nose-down pitch angle do you now have compared to what you started with?

That's all the autopilot is doing: adding forward elevator input and trimming until it catches up with the pressure changes.

It's all about lift, center of pressure changes, and wing design. Very simple aerodynamics actually, which they don't really teach anymore unfortunately...

 

[Vortilon]

Yeah Dave, you hit the nail on the head. This upcoming concessionary agreement is sure to make the senior guys flithy rich.

I hope you picked up on the sarcasm, because I'm laying it on pretty thick.

You paint us furloughees like we're a bunch of down-trodden inividuals that need support from everyone. As far as I know, most of us have adapted to our situation. There is a lot worse that can happen to a person than be furloughed. Gimme a break. Your views of "senior people" being rich royalty and the furloughed junior people being lowly peasants is awfully simplistic. In fact, I'm a little sick of being called a furloughee. The fact is, I am a pilot for Delta airlines. Inactive, but still a pilot and we're all in this together no matter what happens.

Exactly what is your background anyway? What causes such spite and animosity? I don't know how you can have such ill will towards "senior" people. If you are an airline person, has it ever occured to you that if you manage to stay healthy and alive long enough then you will one day be a senior person as well? Will you not look out for your own interests or take some altruistic view and fight for the little guy? Methinks you are the one living in fantasy land.

Good luck on your anger management!

 

[FL000]

For those of you who don't already do this in the CRJ: when practical, put in your flaps 8 and 20 while in a turn. I feel zero balloon when I do it that way.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I also find that there is significantly less of a noticable pitch-change when you slow to the min maneuvering speed for the configuration you're in prior to selecting the next increment of flaps.

I agree with the poster who said that if you select flaps at the max flap speed the pitching moment is much greater. There are quite a few pilots who call for "8 and 20" at 214.9 knots. These are MAX speeds.

It's pretty funny to watch the guy in the other seat quietly "hint" their discomfort as you slow towards min maneuvering for your configuration by putting their hand on the flap lever. Come on folks. With a little planning there is rarely a need to use the flaps as speedbrakes -- with a little more planning there is almost never a need to use the speedbrake handle at all. (except during a descent in icing conditions in order to keep the wings warm).

I'll try the "turn" trick next time I have an opportunity. Anything helps. I'm pleased to see this thread turn into something constructive.

 

[CheapFlyer]

Another non-standard way to minimize the baloon:

If you are in a descent with the auto pilot flying - Go into pitch mode, select flaps 8 then 20, then resume VS mode.

Works like a charm.

-CF

 

[DDpaysoff]

Three clicks on the spoiler lever for flaps 20 also works(provided of course you are at flaps 8 min. +17), but I think pitch mode use described above works better and saves you some math. Also, I hope company inserts a note in FSM that "Flaps 8 and 20" is not a standard call. Unless, Wing ice is on I go flaps 8 until slope alive, or speed is close to green line, or large +/-. If a steep descent in downwind I use flaps 8 and spoilers. Anything to avoid flying around level at flaps 20 for extended periods of time. Anybody else do this?

 

[bvt1151]

try waiting until you're near min manuevering. The 230 or 215 knots most drop the flaps at creates the excessive pitch. So much lift at that airspeed requires a huge downward pitch moment.

Of course this requires that you plan ahead and not use the boards, nor the flaps as a crutch to slow you down.

 

[wms]

I wait until I'm slow before I use flaps. At DFW they want you at the 210 restriction from downwind until final unless otherwise told, so I use the flaps-8-in-the-turn method, and call for flaps 20 in the descent. I'll try pitch mode for that since any vert mode for descent is not considered non-std for us. I deploy the spoilers last only if I need the extra descent rate, but that's just a carry-over from my old Lear job. On IOE I was hesitant to fly around the patch in flaps 20, but was told it was ok by the IP, and have done so ever since at DFW and ATL, even on line checks, with no complaints.

 

[grinder]

I always like to point out that if you can't work on a plane you can't bill from the plane. Business guys hate not making money during the flight. RJ's suck if you're trying to utilize the time. It's tough to use a laptop on any plane, but a RJ or smaller is a show stopper. I never knew this till I got furloughed and became a pax.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Whatever - I've done it. I don't find any difference between doing it in the back of an RJ, or back of a 757. And yes, when I'm on business, I buy a ticket. But the neat new toy is the TREO600. You can bill a file and send the bill during taxi in.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

In the back of a 757 you can actually take a crap when you NEED to---because you have a choice of bathrooms. Also, you can do a lot more work in the first class section of a 757 (where the medallion people want to be)---especially if the guy next to you is SUPER SIZED. If you have one of those guys next to you from DFW to OAK on a CR7---you are hating life--and smelling his sweaty armpits while he is dripping on you.....yummy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

General

Come on man, it does not matter what aircraft you are on if you are sitting next to an oversized pax. I was stationed in Hawaii for a few years and frequently traveled to Seatle one a month to give check rides in the Sim. I flew 75/76/ and 77's as a coach pax in the back. I cant tell you how many times Ive been stuck next to a big Samoan. Great people, but very painfull. There have been a couple of occasions that I told the FA I was not sitting next to someone who needed two seat belt extension. I ended up waiting for another flight. I also travel in the back of the RJ and Mad Dog to work and back every 3 days and I can tell you there is no difference. I watch people use laptops all the time on the RJ. A lot of the pax I sit next to like the idea of no center row. You are 100% correct though about the heads and stage lengths. I really dont see how people do it on our OAK, ONT, SNA, JFK, DCI, JAX, and some others comming up in June. But I never hear anything but thanks, great flight, or when I am not flying, Great Landing!

 

[General Lee]

Tim,

It does make a difference if you can get a first class seat. Come on---that makes sense--doesn't it? And, you may not have been in the back during boarding or half way through those long flights. Passengers are moaning constantly---sounding like COWS---moooing. When the cart is in the aisle-----people can't get up to crap. Those large people make it hard to be productive---and on long flights it can be terrible. Sure, it might be the same in the back of a 764---but the coveted business traveller that we still need has a good chance of getting up front. That is the key.

Hey, overall I like the 70 seaters, the cockpit is great---and I think our furloughs would love to try them too. But, when it comes to the long flights on them---they don't cut the mustard. (what does that saying mean anyway?)

Bye Bye---General Lee