Ugly DAL/ASA rumor

[FL000]

Re: Re: Wiggly-Pig

You know, back when folks would have thought it inappropriate for a big, fat, nasty, trailer trash broad to wear flip-flops, terry cloth short-shorts, and a loose fitting tank top with her saggy mud flaps hanging out the side on to an airplane.

Don't worry Metro...the FAs are supposed to get new uniforms soon.

 

[wms]

The CRJ has a 2-speed mach trim and with the autopilot on and the flaps in motion, the trim moves at fast speed and gives that fast pitch change.

732 any day!

 

[Vortilon]

At least I could wear a normal headset on the MD88 and not go deaf.

Also: CAT III Autoland, Autobrakes, Autothrottles, etc. It might be an older generation airplane, but I'll take it and its performance over an RJ any day. Plus a radar dish thats twice the size of the CRJs is nice to have. Not to mention having a jetway, no weight and balance problems, you don't have to reboot the Mad Dog, you don't have to rebuild the jumpseat, it has a cool door in the floor. All that and you always flying in manual reversion....talk about safe!

Thats the only thing I didn't like about the Embraer 145, when you had a bad radome you were blind out there! Radar really sucked sometimes....wonder if they've improved it.

And lets face it, what type of pilot REALLY wants to fly a smaller airplane? C'mon....we all love the big stuff.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

WMS

That's interesting. If that is the case, it sounds like nothing more than a software glitch. I am surprised that the Canadians haven't come up with a "patch" that dampens the pitch during configuration changes and while on a coupled ILS.

As for the Boeing's rudder -- touche'. I probably wouldn't mention that in the SWA interview though

Personally I'm a Douglas guy. I loved the DC9. Give me a direct cable to the control surfaces (or at least to a servo tab) any day of the week over this hydraulic, aritificial feel, voo-doo, bad-ju ju.

They had to drag me off the Douglas Racer kicking and screaming when I went to Boeing school.

The RJ's a neat little airplane -- no question there, but despite all of the nifty technology it just doesn't fly particularly well in my opinion.

For what it's worth I hear that the 70 seater is an entirely different animal and has much more traditional flying qualities. (I'm guessing that the slats prevent the center of pressure from moving so much during configuration changes but thats just a wag.)

 

[bvt1151]

WMS

For what it's worth I hear that the 70 seater is an entirely different animal and has much more traditional flying qualities. (I'm guessing that the slats prevent the center of pressure from moving so much during configuration changes but thats just a wag.)

This is true. The 70 flies much like the 727 did (or does). Much heavier feel than the 50 and the slats significantly slow down the aircraft during approach, allowing for shorter field ops.

I would like to share with you some numbers I discovered in a recent survey conducted by Boeing. They interviewd both business and Leisure passengers on what was most important to them when choosing an airline. The results:

Business:
Flights under 2 Hrs: Schedule: 42% | Fare: 31% | Airline: 22% | Airplane: 5%
2-5 Hrs: Fare: 36% | Schedule: 35% | Airline: 24% | Airplane: 5%
Over 5 Hr: Schedule: 30% | Fare: 29% | Airline: 27% | Airplane: 14%

Leisure:
Under 2 Hrs: Fare: 63% | Schedule: 19% | Airline: 16% | Airplane: 2%
2-5 Hrs: Fare: 51% | Schedule: 24% | Airline: 17% | Airplane: 8%
Over 5 Hrs: Fare: 52% | Schedule: 19% | Airline: 18% | Airplane: 11%

Notice that in each one of these results, schedule is always higher than airplane. This goes to show that, especially in the high-yield business market, there are significantly more passengers who will prefer the high-frequency RJ over the more roomy, and less often mainline aircraft. They may complain, but when push comes to shove, they prefer the schedule over the aircraft. Of course there will always be that small percentage (5-14%) who will choose their airline based on aircraft, but bare in mind that there are no RJ's that go over 5 hours. In fact, most RJ flights fit into the "Under 2 Hr" category, in which business and leisure pax chose aircraft at only 5 and 2% respectively.

I'm not refuting the fact that some people will pay extra to fly on a larger aircraft. What I am saying is that most passengers would choose an RJ over a mainline aircraft if it meant getting there sooner.

* This survey was conducted to demonstrate the pheasibility of continueing the 717 program and deals specifically with RJ's. "Airplane" is repeatedly referred to as "comfort" within the article.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Re: Re: Wiggly-Pig

Don't worry Metro...the FAs are supposed to get new uniforms soon.

ROFLMAO!!!

 

[General Lee]

BVT1151,

But you left out these numbers about how many businessmen want to fly on RJs for long hours and want to be productive at the same time:

RJs: 0% | mainline aircraft with a first class seat 100%

How about asking businessmen which aircraft they would rather fly on with a severely obese person next to them:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with a chance of going to first 100%

How about asking businessmen who have bladder problems which aircraft they prefer:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with 3 or more lavs 100%


But, I do like your effort. And, I think the CRJs are a nice ride and are advanced---but most businessmen DO NOT.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

You guys want to talk about pitch excursions during flap extension, or poor handling (especially in a crosswind landing), don't talk to me until you've flown the DarnNearajet.

It lands like a 172!

 

[bvt1151]

These aren't my numbers, General.
You'll have to argue with the marketing team at Boeing.

The numbers don't lie. There are people who will complain about flying in an RJ, and I think the press has found every one of them. Fact is, the business man will choose to chance it that they'll sit next to a fatty on an RJ and make his meeting on time,than to chance sitting next to a fatty on mainline (with the small chance of upgrading), and either showing up to his meeting late, or having to leave hours earlier.

They may be complaining about the RJ, but they are lining up to fly on it.

Frequencies or comfort? The US Domestic passenger chooses frequencies.

 

[N2264J]

But you left out these numbers about how many businessmen want to fly on RJs for long hours and want to be productive at the same time:

RJs: 0% | mainline aircraft with a first class seat 100%

It seems to me that a business man who can over fly Atlanta or Dallas without having to stop and make a connection or has many choices in the timetable so he can schedule as he pleases will excersize that option regardless of the airframe. Comair passed the threshold of DOT's definition of major airline in 1999, in large part, because it catered to the bidnessman.

It has already been pointed out that the seat pitch and width on a CL-65 is similar to coach at mainline. And why shouldn't it be? The CL-65 is an airliner. Complaints are part of any service based industry but it's what the market will bare.

Your "statistics" are quite remarkable though. Can we assume you made them up?

 

[DaveGriffin]

But you left out these numbers about how many businessmen want to fly on RJs for long hours and want to be productive at the same time:

RJs: 0% | mainline aircraft with a first class seat 100%

How about asking businessmen which aircraft they would rather fly on with a severely obese person next to them:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with a chance of going to first 100%

How about asking businessmen who have bladder problems which aircraft they prefer:

RJs: 0% | Mainline aircraft with 3 or more lavs 100%

This is typical head-in-the-sand, talk-down the competition from the MEC apologists. They are trying to talk away the inevitable tide of industry change and evolution.

Back in the late 90’s, when SWA was still considered the poor man’s competition; all we heard from Delta pilots was businessmen would NOT fly SWA because there was no seat assignment, no first class, no preferential boarding and nothing to eat but peanuts. The Delta pilots, who were ”real” pilots, demeaned the SWA pilots as low paid, semi-professionals. They couldn’t have been more wrong.

Back in the negotiations leading up to CY2K, we heard from the 30% strike supporters that the pilots are not management, they cannot be expected to think or act like management, that they are only hourly workers who must negotiate the best labor deal they can, just like their blue-collar AFL-CIO brethren in other fields. This was the strategy of the more activist, civilian trained pilots who were trying to overcome the strong influence in the union of the military trained pilots who came from the officer corps and by tradition DID think like management.

Now, in the lead-up to CY2005, the MEC has the audacity to position itself in the reverse role, assuming the personae and demeanor of business analyst and management critic. The PR spin is that it’s not so much negotiating for the pilots, as much as it is seeking to protect and ensure the competitive viability and future of Delta. That’s the joke of the century. But it serves the seniors' stall strategy.

Now General Lee is trying to convince himself that passengers do not like the RJ. Ha ha......that's why the last 4 years been all about scoping the RJ and redirecting RJ growth to mainline.

The industry is changing and the MEC continues to fight it. But fight it or not, the future cannot be changed. The seniors recognize this and realize they can stall until their time in the sun is up. That is why they will use every trick in the book to make sure that the lion’s share of the remaining dollar flow for the next 3-5 years goes to them. Everyone else is on their own and out of luck.

 

[Vortilon]

You sound like you are in high school with all this talk of "seniors". Whats the matter, did one of them try and sell you a pool-pass?

 

[DaveGriffin]

The civy trained "juniors" just aren't that plugged in, but they are great Kool-aide drinkers, when the "seniors" are selling the drinks.

 

[Lear70]

Now General Lee is trying to convince himself that passengers do not like the RJ. Ha ha......that's why the last 4 years been all about scoping the RJ and redirecting RJ growth to mainline.

Ummm... do you fly an RJ? If you DID, you'd understand what we're talking about when we say passengers DON'T like the RJ. They b*tch about it every time they have to ride on one and you're not there to hear the complaints of every business guy that gets off.

It's small, the seat pitch is extremely restrictive unless you're sitting upright like a board, the cushions are thin and uncomfortable, if you're 6' 0" or taller you can't stand up in the cabin on the 2+ hour flights without hitting your head, and the business travelers ALWAYS grumble at you as they exit, no matter if you were on-time (or even early), had a bump-free flight, you didn't put the tail in the air by putting out flaps 20 at max flap extension speed (if you're slower it doesn't pitch so badly), and had the smoothest landing of your entire career... WHY are they still grumbling? Because it's an uncomfortable ride with longer and longer leg lengths every time they turn around.

Do they still buy the tickets? You betcha, for every reason counted before - they like the frequency and it avoids overnight stays the night before or night after an important meeting they have to be at or gets them back home for that next meeting they can't miss.

The point? Painting DALPA and the Delta pilots as self-serving is extremely naive, not to mention antagonistic. These guys aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot (or head) by refusing concessions that needlessly endanger their parent company's ability to function as a business, but neither are they going to give away everything they've gained, and the General is right about a lot of things, INCLUDING that eventually the use of the RJ's is going to max out at some level (every analyst has predicted the same thing). Why will it max out? The simple economics of CASM versus RASM.

Yes, the industry is changing... not only towards increased RJ use, but also towards higher RJ pay rates and quality of life. As pilots realize they're going to be flying these RJ's longer and fewer pilots are going to see major airline seats and/or pay, they're going to eventually start demanding a liveable quality of life. Additionally, when the RJ market caps out, and the explosive growth going on at the regionals stops, those pilots will take an even HARDER look at their pay and QOL.

We've already seen it starting at Comair, Air Wisconsin, now Continental Express and more as these companies recognize the importance of THEIR OWN SCOPE to avoid Mesa tactics and secure their own flying future. Don't believe me? Get a copy of some of the "regional" airline's contracts and compare them to the last two they've obtained - HUGE increases in QOL as they realize they're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Furloughed: it's not a software glitch, it's simply a matter of aerodynamics. The airplane SHOULD have had slats, and flaps 8 would have been nice, but since it doesn't have the slats and most operators didn't pay for flaps 8, and since the flaps make up a LARGE portion of the airfoil, when they extend to 20 degrees in a couple seconds, if you're in the upper range of the max flap extension speed, it pitches like a mother fu*ker.

Slowing to minimum Flaps 0 vref before putting out flaps 20 helps considerably. The only "fix" for it would be to dramatically slow the speed at which they come out, which might cause more harm than good.

 

[FL000]

Ummm... do you fly an RJ? If you DID, you'd understand what we're talking about when we say passengers DON'T like the RJ. They b*tch about it every time they have to ride on one and you're not there to hear the complaints of every business guy that gets off.

It's small, the seat pitch is extremely restrictive unless you're sitting upright like a board, the cushions are thin and uncomfortable, if you're 6' 0" or taller you can't stand up in the cabin on the 2+ hour flights without hitting your head, and the business travelers ALWAYS grumble at you as they exit, no matter if you were on-time (or even early), had a bump-free flight, you didn't put the tail in the air by putting out flaps 20 at max flap extension speed (if you're slower it doesn't pitch so badly), and had the smoothest landing of your entire career... WHY are they still grumbling? Because it's an uncomfortable ride with longer and longer leg lengths every time they turn around.

I think this is a bit of hyperbole. These problems do exist, but I find that the vast majority leave the plane with a smile on their face and thank us for a nice ride. The ONLY time I receive complaints is when we are extremely late, the the levee breaks and we hear everything that was wrong with their day.

I was a DH in a rear center seat on a 757 to DFW recently, and I have to say I thought I was on candid camera when I saw the pitch. I would much rather be on an RJ than in that seat again. The paradox, of course, is that I'd rather see more 75s in the air than RJ's.