Ugly and Unexpected Attrition at Horizon

[P-Dawg_QX]

Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

This is very true. But don't forget that a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they? What happens to a pilot when they can't do what their job requires anymore? Anyone who has failed a pro check can tell you.

 

[ReverseSensing]

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

Yip:

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but people who think outside the box and offer possible solutions aren't the kind of people that get offered management jobs at Horizon. Perhaps they do at your company. The people who get offered management jobs at Horizon are people who tend to accept and excuse mis-management, not offer contrary opinions and alternate solutions.

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but lots of good, smart people (line pilots) have offered lots of really intelligent, creative solutions to big problems at QX only to be given lip-service and eventually ignored.

We as line pilots are subject to constant evaluation and potential criticism if we don't do our job just so. Why should our managers be any different? Why should they not be criticized when they perform poorly. I don't have to be on the inside to know when they perform poorly. They largely control my future well-being at this company and I d@mn sure won't shy away from criticizing them, both in person and on these and other forums. They read this stuff. Other people read this stuff and might open their eyes.

You may think I'm attacking my company, but I'm not: I'm trying to hold management to as high a standard of performance as they hold me. If it makes them squirm a little, I can live with that.

The problem at QX is that management always finds a way to grade their own performance as acceptable, even superior. Most of us on the line who are paying any attention can tell that the Emporer is wearing no clothes.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Perfectly put. May I use that quote?

Of course.

That ugly ass dog died of ugly, didn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

... a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they?

Well said. One way to cover your failure to manage is to deny that anything is wrong. Our CP at least admitted that management's failure to properly anticipate attrition was ugly, but then punted by calling it unexpected.

According to our CP, we are getting plenty of resumes, so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots, the problem is a lack of us hiring them. If this isn't a pure management foul-up, I don't know what is.

But no one in management will lose their job over this; no one will probably even be reprimanded.

If they'd just listened to Yip that could have had us all properly staffed up!

 

[MALSR]

I doubt anyone will be getting hired at Horizon until our fearless employment team is able to make another all expense paid trip to Grand Forks. This way more money can be wasted instead of having applicants come to Portland.

 

[regionaltard]

...so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots...

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

I catch your drift; our CP seems to think we're still an incredibly attractive place to come to due to our excellent management team. He can apparently be nearly as picky as he's always been choosing pilots to hire (present company excluded, of course).

 

[pilotyip]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

 

[Big Dog]

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

 

[CFI2766]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?

 

[pilotyip]

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?

anyone can manage, few can lead

 

[pilotyip]

Big picture

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

 

[GuppyWN]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

Time away from home?

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

If you want to spend time with your family, become a school teacher. If you fly, you spend time away from at the bid of the enity that owns the airplane. It comes with the job. Get used to it, it makes your time at home more special.

 

[Big Dog]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business.

That may very well be true. I contend that I shouldn't have to spend the first 3-4 years of my time with a Company collecting food stamps in order in reach a livable wage 5-6 years after starting. I understand a low first year in order to recoop some training costs but after that, you need a livable wage. And no, I don't mean Mac 'n Cheese and Natural Light, I mean wife, house, kids - the things in my humble opinion that make life worth living. I can deal with overnights and working holidays but not while I can't provide for my family.