Ugly and Unexpected Attrition at Horizon

[pilotyip]

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?

anyone can manage, few can lead

 

[pilotyip]

Big picture

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

 

[GuppyWN]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

Time away from home?

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

If you want to spend time with your family, become a school teacher. If you fly, you spend time away from at the bid of the enity that owns the airplane. It comes with the job. Get used to it, it makes your time at home more special.

 

[Big Dog]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business.

That may very well be true. I contend that I shouldn't have to spend the first 3-4 years of my time with a Company collecting food stamps in order in reach a livable wage 5-6 years after starting. I understand a low first year in order to recoop some training costs but after that, you need a livable wage. And no, I don't mean Mac 'n Cheese and Natural Light, I mean wife, house, kids - the things in my humble opinion that make life worth living. I can deal with overnights and working holidays but not while I can't provide for my family.

 

[GuppyWN]

If you want to spend time with your family, become a school teacher. If you fly, you spend time away from at the bid of the enity that owns the airplane. It comes with the job. Get used to it, it makes your time at home more special.

You're cracking me up. Working for you sounds like Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?

I've got a better plan. Treat your employees like valued assets of your business plan so that when they are at home they talk about how great their job is and they are excited to come back to work. You might give that a try.

Gup

 

[Big Dog]

Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?
Gup

Instant Classic

Up next, pilotyip will either try to make a funny or mention that you don't need a college degree to fly, your choice!

Just another management tool.

 

[pilotyip]

What the F?

You're cracking me up. Working for you sounds like Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?

I've got a better plan. Treat your employees like valued assets of your business plan so that when they are at home they talk about how great their job is and they are excited to come back to work. You might give that a try.

Gup

I take it you are a SWA pilot?, or a would like to be SWA pilot by your picture. SWA pilots spend time away from, most commuters are gone at least 1/2 of the month. No matter who you work for, family seperation comes with the job. You can be treated like a king, but you are still not going to be home. What does treatment of employees have to do with family seperation? BTW No college degree required to work at SWA, just saw another non-degreed guy get hired there.

 

[zasca]

keep lowering the bar so they can hire squad buddies... i kid ;-P

 

[RP170]

$100/K per year isn't much nowadays.

 

[pilotyip]

upper 15% of all individual wage earners

$100/K per year isn't much nowadays.

is too, 85% of the wage in the US make less, I have never seen it. No complaints, no regrets still living the good life.

 

[GuppyWN]

I take it you are a SWA pilot?, or a would like to be SWA pilot by your picture. SWA pilots spend time away from, most commuters are gone at least 1/2 of the month. No matter who you work for, family seperation comes with the job. You can be treated like a king, but you are still not going to be home. What does treatment of employees have to do with family seperation? BTW No college degree required to work at SWA, just saw another non-degreed guy get hired there.

Yes Yip I am a WN pilot and I commute. I fly around 80 hours a month with 18 days off. The company treats us like family. When I fly I look forward to going home. When I am at home I actually look forward to flying at my second home. We do not require a college degree. Some great people just don't have the attitude/moxee/personality to get a degree but that has nothing to do with the type of individual they are. We hire people, not pilots. I don't mean any offense to you but you just don't get it.

I'll give you a story. I called in sick once because my wife possibly had cancer and I was in no shape to go fly. The next day my chief called my house to ask what we needed. I simply stated that we needed a couple days for further testing and I needed to be there for her. He insisted that I take a week or a month and he didn't want to see me again until everything was ok. No questions asked and paid in full. I'd do anything he asked of me. Why? Because he treats me with respect and cares about no only my well being but that of my family.

I don't think I'm going to change your attitude. I'm just telling you what it's like to have employees that love the company and feel like part of the family.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

ultimate family value

Yes Yip I am a WN pilot and I commute. I fly around 80 hours a month with 18 days off. The company treats us like family. When I fly I look forward to going home. When I am at home I actually look forward to flying at my second home. We do not require a college degree. Some great people just don't have the have attitude/moxee/personality to get a degree but that has nothing to do with the type of individual they are. We hire people, not pilots. I don't mean any offense to you but you just don't get it.

I'll give you a story. I called in sick once because my wife possibly had cancer and I was in no shape to go fly. The next day my chief called my house to ask what we needed. I simply stated that we needed a couple days for further testing and I needed to be there for her. He insisted that I take a week or a month and he didn't want to see me again until everything was ok. No questions asked and paid in full. I'd do anything he asked of me. Why? Because he treats me with respect and cares about no only my well being but that of my family.

I don't think I'm going to change your attitude. I'm just telling you what it's like to have employees that love the company and feel like part of the family.

Gup

Sounds great, the ultimate family value is supporting your family, providing them with food, housing and clothing. This is not measured by the time you spend with your family, it measured by the dedication of the family unit to make the family values work. If your job requires family separation then, you must leave your family, In this business as you get more senior you more ability to control your life. Working for a supportive company makes it even better. But no one in this business should complain about family separation, it comes with the job. BTW I left my wife for nine months while she was pregnant to fly in Vietnam, is my caring for my family less than yours because I left her for nine months?

 

[Shaheen]

Sounds great, the ultimate family value is supporting your family, providing them with food, housing and clothing. This is not measured by the time you spend with your family, it measured by the dedication of the family unit to make the family values work. If your job requires family separation then, you must leave your family, In this business as you get more senior you more ability to control your life. Working for a supportive company makes it even better. But no one in this business should complain about family separation, it comes with the job. BTW I left my wife for nine months while she was pregnant to fly in Vietnam, is my caring for my family less than yours because I left her for nine months?

Uh oh...now...you couldn't have come up with a better angle to 'top' the cancer story, could you?

Spoken like a typical airline pilot: '...My situation is worst/better than yours'.

Huh.

 

[TheDude280]

"What the hell does anything have to do with Vietnam Walter!!!?? Does everything have to be such a travesty with you man!!??"- The Big Lebowski

 

[pilotyip]

miss read

Uh oh...now...you couldn't have come up with a better angle to 'top' the cancer story, could you?

Spoken like a typical airline pilot: '...My situation is worst/better than yours'.

Huh.

it was not a my story is better than yours, it was another example that seperation comes with any flying job. The whole thing went back to a complaint about being away from family because of flying. Get used to it, it is part of the job.

 

[Icelandair]

Just because something is part of the job right now doesn't mean you shouldn't work to fix it. Almost all the lines at QX average 400 TAFB. That is the equivalent of working 70-80 hours a week at a normal job. Almost all of the trips offered on the lines are four day trips, which aren't exactly popular. There are no day trips on any of the lines (except a few CRJ lines sometimes, never on either Dash). I'm sure those factors are part of the reason that many pilots are beginning to vote with their feet here. 400 hours TAFB is not family friendly whatsoever, and at the end of the day family comes first. Yes, you signed up to be away from your family but that doesn't mean you're not going to gripe and work to make the number of days/night away as few as possible.

 

[turbodriver]

400 TAFB is but one of the many reasons why I bailed from QX.....

 

[TurboAWD]

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

I come up with solutions to problems every day I go to work. Those who ake the big $$$ in mgmt should be coming up with bigger, better solutiions to bigger problems then me to justify the pay. But they aren't.

Turbo

 

[Sioux115]

I think if anyone reads LH's response to the attrition in Gene's corner, mgt thinks everything is perferct here and no need for a change. LH actually got pretty defensive when he was questioned about pilots leaving for other carriers.