Ugly and Unexpected Attrition at Horizon

[pilotyip]

There is only a shortage of pilots willing to work for crap wages. The well-paying outfits are having NO trouble attracting well-qualified applicants. None.

Nobody is parking airplanes or cutting service for lack of crews. The regionals are certainly feeling the pressure though.

What is a crap wage, I looked my Payroll Management book and could not find the definition?

 

[DGdaPilot]

Nobody is parking airplanes or cutting service for lack of crews. The regionals are certainly feeling the pressure though.

Yes we are. Eagle is starting to park the Saab fleet. They just unlocked the training freeze on prop newhires too so they can go to the jet if they want (read: more profitable flying for AMR).

 

[DrewBlows]

35K only to start. Most are up to $50-$60 range after a couple years. Remember this is a entry level job where you get the skills to move onto a carer position. You to pay your dues someplace, this is only one of the many options. This is where you get the skills to go from CFI to Netjets, AirTran, etc as many of our low time starting pilots have done We have many pilots who are not going anywhere because they actually like the lifestyle. Few pilots spend more time at home than than a USA pilot who lives to the YIP area. So control your excitment. I will PM you an email address so you can start your on-line application.

Hey Yip, what are the current minimums at USAJet? What kind of experience do most new hires have? Are people starting at Pinnicle or Mesaba and coming over? The other way around? Are you hiring mostly CFIs?

 

[Metro752]

USA Jet, 1 Hour Call Out!

 

[ReverseSensing]

Sounds like anyone with any combination of experience and brains would be looking elsewhere.

I won't share verbatim what QX's chief pilot recently wrote a skeptical co-worker, but I'll paraphrase:

- More people are coming to QX from other regionals than the other way around.

- We have it so good here at QX compared to other regionals, it's no contest.

- We'd hire a lot more UND grads if other regionals weren't taking them with less time.

- Quit your bitchin' and pick up some green time. (Okay, he didn't actually say that, but he was thinking it, I'm sure.)

- We're doing a fantastic job in management at QX, and we know this because managers at other regionals tell us so.

In general, our leaders are offering typical management pablum: So insulated from the life of a line pilot, they can't even detect when they've started to sound silly.

 

[regionaltard]

- We'd hire a lot more UND grads if other regionals weren't taking them with less time.

Like Johnnie Cochran once said: "If the classes will not fill, the minimums will go lower still." "Regional Pilot" will be a class at UND before this is all over.

 

[pilotyip]

don't jump the gun,

 

[NEDude]

hint: 60 or 90 bucks an hour for an A320/A319 Captain is not anything resembling competitive

60 an hour for a captain on an A320? I make almost that much as a first year F/O on the 'bus.

That has been QX's "problem" for a long time now- they bury their head in the sand and then get hit by a truck. Sad.

QX has a lot of company in that regard.

In general, our leaders are offering typical management pablum: So insulated from the life of a line pilot, they can't even detect when they've started to sound silly.

Perfectly put. May I use that quote?

 

[pilotyip]

whoops wrong button[

 

[pilotyip]

answers?

I won't share verbatim what QX's chief pilot recently wrote a skeptical co-worker, but I'll paraphrase:

- More people are coming to QX from other regionals than the other way around.

- We have it so good here at QX compared to other regionals, it's no contest.

- We'd hire a lot more UND grads if other regionals weren't taking them with less time.

- Quit your bitchin' and pick up some green time. (Okay, he didn't actually say that, but he was thinking it, I'm sure.)

- We're doing a fantastic job in management at QX, and we know this because managers at other regionals tell us so.

In general, our leaders are offering typical management pablum: So insulated from the life of a line pilot, they can't even detect when they've started to sound silly.

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

This is very true. But don't forget that a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they? What happens to a pilot when they can't do what their job requires anymore? Anyone who has failed a pro check can tell you.

 

[ReverseSensing]

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

Yip:

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but people who think outside the box and offer possible solutions aren't the kind of people that get offered management jobs at Horizon. Perhaps they do at your company. The people who get offered management jobs at Horizon are people who tend to accept and excuse mis-management, not offer contrary opinions and alternate solutions.

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but lots of good, smart people (line pilots) have offered lots of really intelligent, creative solutions to big problems at QX only to be given lip-service and eventually ignored.

We as line pilots are subject to constant evaluation and potential criticism if we don't do our job just so. Why should our managers be any different? Why should they not be criticized when they perform poorly. I don't have to be on the inside to know when they perform poorly. They largely control my future well-being at this company and I d@mn sure won't shy away from criticizing them, both in person and on these and other forums. They read this stuff. Other people read this stuff and might open their eyes.

You may think I'm attacking my company, but I'm not: I'm trying to hold management to as high a standard of performance as they hold me. If it makes them squirm a little, I can live with that.

The problem at QX is that management always finds a way to grade their own performance as acceptable, even superior. Most of us on the line who are paying any attention can tell that the Emporer is wearing no clothes.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Perfectly put. May I use that quote?

Of course.

That ugly ass dog died of ugly, didn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

... a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they?

Well said. One way to cover your failure to manage is to deny that anything is wrong. Our CP at least admitted that management's failure to properly anticipate attrition was ugly, but then punted by calling it unexpected.

According to our CP, we are getting plenty of resumes, so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots, the problem is a lack of us hiring them. If this isn't a pure management foul-up, I don't know what is.

But no one in management will lose their job over this; no one will probably even be reprimanded.

If they'd just listened to Yip that could have had us all properly staffed up!

 

[MALSR]

I doubt anyone will be getting hired at Horizon until our fearless employment team is able to make another all expense paid trip to Grand Forks. This way more money can be wasted instead of having applicants come to Portland.

 

[regionaltard]

...so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots...

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

I catch your drift; our CP seems to think we're still an incredibly attractive place to come to due to our excellent management team. He can apparently be nearly as picky as he's always been choosing pilots to hire (present company excluded, of course).

 

[pilotyip]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

 

[Big Dog]

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

 

[CFI2766]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?