Ugly and Unexpected Attrition at Horizon

[P-Dawg_QX]

Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

This is very true. But don't forget that a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they? What happens to a pilot when they can't do what their job requires anymore? Anyone who has failed a pro check can tell you.

 

[ReverseSensing]

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

Yip:

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but people who think outside the box and offer possible solutions aren't the kind of people that get offered management jobs at Horizon. Perhaps they do at your company. The people who get offered management jobs at Horizon are people who tend to accept and excuse mis-management, not offer contrary opinions and alternate solutions.

I'm not saying I'm one of them, but lots of good, smart people (line pilots) have offered lots of really intelligent, creative solutions to big problems at QX only to be given lip-service and eventually ignored.

We as line pilots are subject to constant evaluation and potential criticism if we don't do our job just so. Why should our managers be any different? Why should they not be criticized when they perform poorly. I don't have to be on the inside to know when they perform poorly. They largely control my future well-being at this company and I d@mn sure won't shy away from criticizing them, both in person and on these and other forums. They read this stuff. Other people read this stuff and might open their eyes.

You may think I'm attacking my company, but I'm not: I'm trying to hold management to as high a standard of performance as they hold me. If it makes them squirm a little, I can live with that.

The problem at QX is that management always finds a way to grade their own performance as acceptable, even superior. Most of us on the line who are paying any attention can tell that the Emporer is wearing no clothes.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Perfectly put. May I use that quote?

Of course.

That ugly ass dog died of ugly, didn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

... a huge part of management's job is to come up with the solutions. When they don't do that, or can't do that, they aren't doing their job very well, are they?

Well said. One way to cover your failure to manage is to deny that anything is wrong. Our CP at least admitted that management's failure to properly anticipate attrition was ugly, but then punted by calling it unexpected.

According to our CP, we are getting plenty of resumes, so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots, the problem is a lack of us hiring them. If this isn't a pure management foul-up, I don't know what is.

But no one in management will lose their job over this; no one will probably even be reprimanded.

If they'd just listened to Yip that could have had us all properly staffed up!

 

[MALSR]

I doubt anyone will be getting hired at Horizon until our fearless employment team is able to make another all expense paid trip to Grand Forks. This way more money can be wasted instead of having applicants come to Portland.

 

[regionaltard]

...so the problem isn't a shortage of pilots...

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

 

[ReverseSensing]

That really depends on what the definition of "pilot" is these days, doesn't it?

I catch your drift; our CP seems to think we're still an incredibly attractive place to come to due to our excellent management team. He can apparently be nearly as picky as he's always been choosing pilots to hire (present company excluded, of course).

 

[pilotyip]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

 

[Big Dog]

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

 

[CFI2766]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time?

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?

 

[pilotyip]

Good post. These are things that are forgotten in this forum.

It just makes it even more painful, however, when you see good people working for management that takes them for granted in the name of achieving a competitive advantage.

If I'm not valued by my management, why should I value my management?

anyone can manage, few can lead

 

[pilotyip]

Big picture

This "Pilot Shortage" is a total farce. There are more than enough pilots out there to fly all the airplanes and then some. What there is is a shortage of pilots who will fly for a poverty wage, even after 2-3 years it's barely livable, not to mention that you'd be making little headway on all those loans that you now have from your initial training.

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

 

[GuppyWN]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business. Entry level wages at USA Jet 35K are above the national average, and more than many college graduates make who do not have technical degrees. Average individual income from the Dept of Labour in 2005 was $46,000, almost all pilot who have been in the bisiness for 5 years will be above average. No college degree required so $100K in debt is also not requried. There is shortage of pilots.

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

Time away from home?

Yip,

"Almost all pilots" who have been in this business for over 5 years spend half their time away from their families flying millions if not BILLIONS of dollars of liability around. That should pay more than $46k per year. And I don't believe there is a pilot shortage. There might possibly be a shortage of qualified applicants that are willing to fly 18 days a month for under 20k a year though. There is a difference. And to fly a falcon around the world at 3am that you have to piss on the door seal to get it to pressurize has got to pay more than 35k - but like you said, you have a drawer full of applicants.

Gup

If you want to spend time with your family, become a school teacher. If you fly, you spend time away from at the bid of the enity that owns the airplane. It comes with the job. Get used to it, it makes your time at home more special.

 

[Big Dog]

$100K/yr is a very doable income as a pilot after 10 years in this business.

That may very well be true. I contend that I shouldn't have to spend the first 3-4 years of my time with a Company collecting food stamps in order in reach a livable wage 5-6 years after starting. I understand a low first year in order to recoop some training costs but after that, you need a livable wage. And no, I don't mean Mac 'n Cheese and Natural Light, I mean wife, house, kids - the things in my humble opinion that make life worth living. I can deal with overnights and working holidays but not while I can't provide for my family.

 

[GuppyWN]

If you want to spend time with your family, become a school teacher. If you fly, you spend time away from at the bid of the enity that owns the airplane. It comes with the job. Get used to it, it makes your time at home more special.

You're cracking me up. Working for you sounds like Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?

I've got a better plan. Treat your employees like valued assets of your business plan so that when they are at home they talk about how great their job is and they are excited to come back to work. You might give that a try.

Gup

 

[Big Dog]

Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?
Gup

Instant Classic

Up next, pilotyip will either try to make a funny or mention that you don't need a college degree to fly, your choice!

Just another management tool.

 

[pilotyip]

What the F?

You're cracking me up. Working for you sounds like Stockholm Syndrom. I should kiss your feet because you stopped beating me?

I've got a better plan. Treat your employees like valued assets of your business plan so that when they are at home they talk about how great their job is and they are excited to come back to work. You might give that a try.

Gup

I take it you are a SWA pilot?, or a would like to be SWA pilot by your picture. SWA pilots spend time away from, most commuters are gone at least 1/2 of the month. No matter who you work for, family seperation comes with the job. You can be treated like a king, but you are still not going to be home. What does treatment of employees have to do with family seperation? BTW No college degree required to work at SWA, just saw another non-degreed guy get hired there.

 

[zasca]

keep lowering the bar so they can hire squad buddies... i kid ;-P

 

[RP170]

$100/K per year isn't much nowadays.

 

[pilotyip]

upper 15% of all individual wage earners

$100/K per year isn't much nowadays.

is too, 85% of the wage in the US make less, I have never seen it. No complaints, no regrets still living the good life.

 

[GuppyWN]

I take it you are a SWA pilot?, or a would like to be SWA pilot by your picture. SWA pilots spend time away from, most commuters are gone at least 1/2 of the month. No matter who you work for, family seperation comes with the job. You can be treated like a king, but you are still not going to be home. What does treatment of employees have to do with family seperation? BTW No college degree required to work at SWA, just saw another non-degreed guy get hired there.

Yes Yip I am a WN pilot and I commute. I fly around 80 hours a month with 18 days off. The company treats us like family. When I fly I look forward to going home. When I am at home I actually look forward to flying at my second home. We do not require a college degree. Some great people just don't have the attitude/moxee/personality to get a degree but that has nothing to do with the type of individual they are. We hire people, not pilots. I don't mean any offense to you but you just don't get it.

I'll give you a story. I called in sick once because my wife possibly had cancer and I was in no shape to go fly. The next day my chief called my house to ask what we needed. I simply stated that we needed a couple days for further testing and I needed to be there for her. He insisted that I take a week or a month and he didn't want to see me again until everything was ok. No questions asked and paid in full. I'd do anything he asked of me. Why? Because he treats me with respect and cares about no only my well being but that of my family.

I don't think I'm going to change your attitude. I'm just telling you what it's like to have employees that love the company and feel like part of the family.

Gup

 

[pilotyip]

ultimate family value

Yes Yip I am a WN pilot and I commute. I fly around 80 hours a month with 18 days off. The company treats us like family. When I fly I look forward to going home. When I am at home I actually look forward to flying at my second home. We do not require a college degree. Some great people just don't have the have attitude/moxee/personality to get a degree but that has nothing to do with the type of individual they are. We hire people, not pilots. I don't mean any offense to you but you just don't get it.

I'll give you a story. I called in sick once because my wife possibly had cancer and I was in no shape to go fly. The next day my chief called my house to ask what we needed. I simply stated that we needed a couple days for further testing and I needed to be there for her. He insisted that I take a week or a month and he didn't want to see me again until everything was ok. No questions asked and paid in full. I'd do anything he asked of me. Why? Because he treats me with respect and cares about no only my well being but that of my family.

I don't think I'm going to change your attitude. I'm just telling you what it's like to have employees that love the company and feel like part of the family.

Gup

Sounds great, the ultimate family value is supporting your family, providing them with food, housing and clothing. This is not measured by the time you spend with your family, it measured by the dedication of the family unit to make the family values work. If your job requires family separation then, you must leave your family, In this business as you get more senior you more ability to control your life. Working for a supportive company makes it even better. But no one in this business should complain about family separation, it comes with the job. BTW I left my wife for nine months while she was pregnant to fly in Vietnam, is my caring for my family less than yours because I left her for nine months?

 

[Shaheen]

Sounds great, the ultimate family value is supporting your family, providing them with food, housing and clothing. This is not measured by the time you spend with your family, it measured by the dedication of the family unit to make the family values work. If your job requires family separation then, you must leave your family, In this business as you get more senior you more ability to control your life. Working for a supportive company makes it even better. But no one in this business should complain about family separation, it comes with the job. BTW I left my wife for nine months while she was pregnant to fly in Vietnam, is my caring for my family less than yours because I left her for nine months?

Uh oh...now...you couldn't have come up with a better angle to 'top' the cancer story, could you?

Spoken like a typical airline pilot: '...My situation is worst/better than yours'.

Huh.

 

[TheDude280]

"What the hell does anything have to do with Vietnam Walter!!!?? Does everything have to be such a travesty with you man!!??"- The Big Lebowski

 

[pilotyip]

miss read

Uh oh...now...you couldn't have come up with a better angle to 'top' the cancer story, could you?

Spoken like a typical airline pilot: '...My situation is worst/better than yours'.

Huh.

it was not a my story is better than yours, it was another example that seperation comes with any flying job. The whole thing went back to a complaint about being away from family because of flying. Get used to it, it is part of the job.

 

[Icelandair]

Just because something is part of the job right now doesn't mean you shouldn't work to fix it. Almost all the lines at QX average 400 TAFB. That is the equivalent of working 70-80 hours a week at a normal job. Almost all of the trips offered on the lines are four day trips, which aren't exactly popular. There are no day trips on any of the lines (except a few CRJ lines sometimes, never on either Dash). I'm sure those factors are part of the reason that many pilots are beginning to vote with their feet here. 400 hours TAFB is not family friendly whatsoever, and at the end of the day family comes first. Yes, you signed up to be away from your family but that doesn't mean you're not going to gripe and work to make the number of days/night away as few as possible.

 

[turbodriver]

400 TAFB is but one of the many reasons why I bailed from QX.....

 

[TurboAWD]

If you have the answers, why are you not stepping into manamgent to make the place better? Anyone can identify problems, but few poeple have solutions.

I come up with solutions to problems every day I go to work. Those who ake the big $$$ in mgmt should be coming up with bigger, better solutiions to bigger problems then me to justify the pay. But they aren't.

Turbo

 

[Sioux115]

I think if anyone reads LH's response to the attrition in Gene's corner, mgt thinks everything is perferct here and no need for a change. LH actually got pretty defensive when he was questioned about pilots leaving for other carriers.