UAX Letter to UAL Pilots over jumpseat dispute.

[Speedtape]

I guess you'd have to exclude regionals like CommutAir, Colgan, GoJet:laugh:, PSA, Great Lakes, etc as they are too small and would greatly drain your finances. If multiple regionals joined a regional union then you'd have a bunch of airlines, that previously had to be subsidized by major airlines, on their own.
Yearly MEC account income for a regional airline slightly smaller than ASA.

The better thing to do is learn to work within the system--or make it work for you instead of coming up with some whimsical solution.

 

[SaturnPilot]

agreed 100%!!!!

:beer:

 

[flyboyike]

An independent major union and an independent regional union are two very different things financially. The regionals do not collect enough dues money to function normally and are actually subsidized by the majors. An airline the size of Skywest and ASA would take in roughly a quarter million dollars a year. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upwards of a half million...add in the rest of the costs of running a union on top of that.

Well, ALPA's been saying for years that anything other than ALPA is finacially or otherwise infeasible. And yet, a number of "other than ALPAs" have popped up.

Also, what, pray tell, costs half-a-mil during negotiations, coffee and donuts?

 

[Speedtape]

Well, ALPA's been saying for years that anything other than ALPA is finacially or otherwise infeasible. And yet, a number of "other than ALPAs" have popped up.

Also, what, pray tell, costs half-a-mil during negotiations, coffee and donuts?

For a start, a Legal team.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Well, ALPA's been saying for years that anything other than ALPA is finacially or otherwise infeasible. And yet, a number of "other than ALPAs" have popped up.

Well, my statement isn't from ALPA, it's my opinion after looking at the numbers. Yes, there have been independent unions that have popped up and succeeded...none at the regional level where the pay is lower and a larger portion of the pilot groups are on probation, generating significantly less dues revenue. Could an independent union work at a regional level? Sure, I guess. You just wouldn't be able to afford to buy out your negotiating team, MEC Chairman, pay for enough legal support for your negotiations and grievances, etc. I don't know about you, but I don't want my negotiating committee flying anything resembling a full schedule while negotiations are in full swing, while having to write a good contract and balance their family life on their days off.

Also, what, pray tell, costs half-a-mil during negotiations, coffee and donuts?

Well, usually a negotiating committee is made up of around 3 pilots and one lawyer. The three pilots are usually more senior captains with experience negotiating and/or a good history with the company. During negotiations, the union pays their salary. 3 senior captains conservatively $300,000/year. During negotiations at a large regional such as Skywest/ASA would be, you would need your MEC Chairman on full time buy also, so throw another $100,000 on there. I'll be nice and say your lawyer only costs $50,000. We're now up to $450,000 and we haven't yet began to talk about hotel and per diem expenses (as your entire negotiating committee most likely does not live near the MEC office). You will also need at least some buy for the Communications Chairman, SPC Committee, costs for communications to go out to the pilot group regarding progress in negotiations. When negotiations progress towards a strike you need office space for an army of SPC volunteers to gather data about what flights are flying , monitor and pilots who may cross a picket line, organize picketing events, and a whole list of items that will exceed $500,000...and yes, coffee and donuts.

 

[DoinTime]

Also, what, pray tell, costs half-a-mil during negotiations, coffee and donuts?

Mostly flight pay loss for your negotiating committee.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

An independent major union and an independent regional union are two very different things financially. The regionals do not collect enough dues money to function normally and are actually subsidized by the majors. An airline the size of Skywest and ASA would take in roughly a quarter million dollars a year. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upwards of a half million...add in the rest of the costs of running a union on top of that.

Where do you keep coming up with that number?

ASA has about 1800 pilots. The average captain makes $78k and the average FO makes $38k. This averages to $58k per pilot. $58,000 X 1800 X 1.95%= $2,035,800 per year. That's just a rough estimate, but realistic. It's definitely a far cry from your "quarter million dollars". If the union only used a million per year, they could bank a million a year for negotiations.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Where do you keep coming up with that number?

ASA has about 1800 pilots. The average captain makes $78k and the average FO makes $38k. This averages to $58k per pilot. $58,000 X 1800 X 1.95%= $2,035,800 per year. That's just a rough estimate, but realistic. It's definitely a far cry from your "quarter million dollars". If the union only used a million per year, they could bank a million a year for negotiations.

I'm getting these numbers from budget reports for how much money actually flows into an MEC. I went to look at actual data since it is very difficult to estimate how many members of a pilot group do not pay dues do to being on probation, or how much of their income is exempt from dues, etc. My numbers were based on a group with around 1200 pilots. After your post, I went back and double checked everything and I did make a mistake as I incorrectly referenced only one portion of the income coming into an MEC. My number should have been corrected to around 1 mill for a group the size of ASA. Keep in mind this income also included money given back by ALPA as the regionals receive more dues than they pay. However, compensation at ASA is now greater than at the carrier I was looking at, so we are all really estimating.

I still submit that a regional carrier will be financially pressed with an independent union. In ASA's recent negotiations, they still had to get grants of $2 million from ALPA. My carrier was VERY frugal in the years coming up to negotiations and was able to store a large amount of the money coming in for negotiations. That money was gone quickly before having to ask for a MCF grant.

ASA's last round of negotiating lasted over 5-6 years (correct me if I am wrong). These are the times when the finances are critical. Had ASA gone on strike after 6 years of negotiating with an independent union, there most likely would be no strike pay, money would not be there for equipment to monitor flights, etc.

Again, I may be wrong, but from where I sit, it does not look feasible.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I'm getting these numbers from budget reports for how much money actually flows into an MEC. I went to look at actual data since it is very difficult to estimate how many members of a pilot group do not pay dues do to being on probation, or how much of their income is exempt from dues, etc. My numbers were based on a group with around 1200 pilots. After your post, I went back and double checked everything and I did make a mistake as I incorrectly referenced only one portion of the income coming into an MEC. My number should have been corrected to around 1 mill for a group the size of ASA. Keep in mind this income also included money given back by ALPA as the regionals receive more dues than they pay. However, compensation at ASA is now greater than at the carrier I was looking at, so we are all really estimating.

I still submit that a regional carrier will be financially pressed with an independent union. In ASA's recent negotiations, they still had to get grants of $2 million from ALPA. My carrier was VERY frugal in the years coming up to negotiations and was able to store a large amount of the money coming in for negotiations. That money was gone quickly before having to ask for a MCF grant.

ASA's last round of negotiating lasted over 5-6 years (correct me if I am wrong). These are the times when the finances are critical. Had ASA gone on strike after 6 years of negotiating with an independent union, there most likely would be no strike pay, money would not be there for equipment to monitor flights, etc.

Again, I may be wrong, but from where I sit, it does not look feasible.

Thank you for admitting that you are full of BS.

 

[BoilerUP]

Thank you for admitting that you are full of BS.

Yet you only insult him, not refute his information...

 

[SaturnPilot]

Thank you for admitting that you are full of BS.

Whatever champ...don't take my word for it, call your MEC Secretary Treasurer and have him sit down with you and show you the books. Either way, thanks for bringing so much to the conversation.

 

[eatme]

Seems someone is on the rag today

 

[JoeMerchant]

Whatever champ...don't take my word for it, call your MEC Secretary Treasurer and have him sit down with you and show you the books. Either way, thanks for bringing so much to the conversation.

I've seen the "books"...for ASA and SKYW combined, it would be over 3 million a year that could be taken in.....

Too much money is wasted on full time ALPA leave...I have seen it grow over the years....It could be cut back....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Mostly flight pay loss for your negotiating committee.

We had about 9 people on full time ALPA leave....Communications, Family Awareness, SPC....It is over used.....and then when the budget comes up short they come to the members for more....There is too much full time ALPA leave....

 

[PCL_128]

I've seen the "books"...for ASA and SKYW combined, it would be over 3 million a year that could be taken in.....

You'll never get the two groups combined with your fantasy independent union, Decertification Fairy. Never happen. You can only count on your own carrier's income, and as SaturnPilot demonstrated, you don't have the revenue to support even a minimally functional independent union.

 

[PCL_128]

We had about 9 people on full time ALPA leave....Communications, Family Awareness, SPC....It is over used.....and then when the budget comes up short they come to the members for more....There is too much full time ALPA leave....

That's an issue for your own carrier, and I actually agree that your MEC probably used a little too much buy. ALPA National doesn't control that. The CMR MEC was always notorious in days past for the same thing. Not sure how the new MEC is handling union leave, though. In any case, even if you limit full time buy to the bare minimum, as we did on the PCL MEC (the CNC only got it when actively preparing or negotiating, plus the MEC Chairman), then you still rack up about $400k per year during negotiations just in FPL. That doesn't even count the attorney you'd have to put on retainer, the specialist attorneys you'd have to pay by the hour for issues like scope and retirement, E & FA, per diem and other travel costs, SPC expenses, etc.... Under no circumstances could an independent regional union support themselves adequately during contract negotiations. It'll never add up.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You'll never get the two groups combined with your fantasy independent union, Decertification Fairy. Never happen. You can only count on your own carrier's income, and as SaturnPilot demonstrated, you don't have the revenue to support even a minimally functional independent union.

I think a deal could be reached....especially if it included an independant union....

A combined list would require a representational election and I doubt ALPA would win the election.....

Again, I'm not currently advocating decertification....although quite a few are....I like having the DFR hammer...

 

[PCL_128]

I think a deal could be reached...

And I think you're smoking some high-quality ganja if you believe that.

 

[WalterSobchak]

And I think you're smoking some high-quality ganja if you believe that.

Would this be the same California gold that you smoke that leads you to believe that anyone here still gives a rat's arse about anything you have to say?

 

[dispatchguy]

It's amazing.

This jumpseat issue has devolved into an ALPA-No ALPA pissing match.

Hell, any discussion on FI here can devolve into one of those anymore.

What were we originally discussing?