UALPA response to jumpseat threat

[D-Bo]

D-Bo,

Quick question, if UALPA didn't drive this last software change in May that gave TSA/GoJet priority over other UAX on mainline, and mainline priority on TSA/GoJet....who did?

Sounds like a question for our JSC. Did your JSC ask ours about it? If not maybe they can ask after they pull the letter.

 

[NOZ]

Sounds like a question for our JSC. Did your JSC ask ours about it? If not maybe they can ask after they pull the letter.

UAL JSC would not talk to any UAX JSC about this issue the last 6+ months, basically refusing to even hear anything pertaining to this issue... So, I guess the letter worked in so far as there is a phone conference today. At least, they are talking...

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can understand your line of thinking if you feel that integrity is not required of a professional. More reasonable people believe that holding up your end of a reciprocal agreement is the right thing to do. But what do I know Rez, your ALPA pom poms are bigger than mine.

Rez is also a United pilot now......Hmmmm....

 

[WalterSobchak]

Walter, were you a pilot who became a dispatcher? Or, are the aircraft flown airplanes in your profile the ones you have dispatched, or just the ones you've gone for rides on?

To answer your question, no matter how condescending or rhetorical it may have been, the aircraft listed are ones that I have worked in one aspect or another...either dispatching or back in my ramp-rat days.

Before you opt for the default ramper bashing response, don't take my time as a ramp-rat as any indication of my education level and cognitive abilities...I rock a 134 IQ (and I only mention this because a lot of folks seem to mistake dispatchers for idiots). I just liked the working outside for a change and it lead me to a love of this stupid industry.

As I've stated before, I never had any real desire to be an airline pilot. I can fly...I just don't really wish to make a career of it. Seventy-five percent of the pilots I know are bitter and/or hate their job...and that's just something I'm not into. Not a personal knock on anyone here; I'm just a firm believer that, once you start to hate it, it's time to move on to something else. Besides, I've always been a behind-the-scenes kinda guy...previous career was sound engineering and radio.

I thoroughly enjoy the mental gymnastics that some days require of this profession...juggling multiple traffic management initiatives, keeping an eye out for possible issues and hazards all over the U.S., and the general parsing of a constant stream of information. It is the one of the most thankless gigs in the industry and, most of the time, I prefer it that way (let’s face it, the guy emptying the crapper has THE most thankless gig).

All of that said, I have nothing but respect for the abilities and knowledge required of the pilot profession. I simply ask that you reconsider your condescending attitude and complete lack of respect towards my chosen profession.

 

[The Drizzle]

UAL JSC would not talk to any UAX JSC about this issue the last 6+ months, basically refusing to even hear anything pertaining to this issue... So, I guess the letter worked in so far as there is a phone conference today. At least, they are talking...

Also, when they were talking previously, the JSCs at at least one of the UAX companies was treated with nothing but distain. It was made very clear, that they had no intention of dealing with the lower scum of the earth(UAX) with any parity. Unverified parts of all this is that the UAL MEC was complicit in the creation of this priority. I'm not sure which side is telling their pilots the truth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can understand your line of thinking if you feel that integrity is not required of a professional.

Did the UAL pilots or MEC say they'd fix the problem? If so in what capacity?

More reasonable people believe that holding up your end of a reciprocal agreement is the right thing to do.

What does the recip agreement say? Does it say that UAL pilots will use their union resources and money to fix a UAX problem?

But what do I know Rez, your ALPA pom poms are bigger than mine.

Your reply [all above] is rhetorical. Again, I ask.. why are the UAX JSC making the UAL MEC accountable? Again.. I am not saying the UAL MEC is or is not... but it seems that the UAX JSC, while understandably frustrated, unjustifiably threatened the entire UAL pilot group.

Why did the UAX MECs and JSC not work with their managements and UAL management?


Again, the integrity card is very subjective, and in this case integrity is what you want another to adhere to for your own gain....

I would think that if the UAX JSCs had some sort of grievance process, a legal or policy document to reference or even a reciprocal j/s agreement they would have referenced it in their "Letter". But the only leverage they had was the ultimatum: to make life difficult for everyone....

Recall.. jumpseat is a privilege.. it is not a right unless it is negotiated in a CBA.. and if it was... then that CBA is between a labor group and a company. I don't know of any UAX pilot groups that have binding agreements like a CBA with the U-ALPA.

Recall in the past UAX pilots have negotiated pass travel agreements on mainline, only to have UAX management renege because UAX management doesn't control UAL management. Why is this different?

Again.. the only agreement is a j/s agreemnt and if there was teeth in that agreement it would have been referenced in the now infamous UAX Letter.

So again... I ask... why is U-ALPA obligated to fix the problems of UAX pilots?

 

[bmpilot2003]

Sounds like a question for our JSC. Did your JSC ask ours about it? If not maybe they can ask after they pull the letter.

Well i got news for you UALPA pushed for the software change, but didn't tell you guys that in the letter they sent you. Our JSC informed us that there were many INACCURACIES in the letter.....go figure. The UAX JSC have already stated in the if UALPA can FACTUALLY prove that its to costly or the manpower isn't there to fix the problem in a month they would back down.

 

[bmpilot2003]

What makes me sad? That I won't be taken hostage over something we don't have control over and if we did would cost us money from our already Fd up contract? We've been passive over the last 6 years. Way too passive. Not any more. Tired of having our throats stepped on by management and now UAX. It's not going to work. They should have considered the climate over here before sending the threat.

And yes, I used to fly for the commuters. If you fly for a UAX carrier I may be flying for your commuter before long. If so that changes nothing as far as my opinion on this subject is concerned.

We're trying to save jobs over here and UAX wants to drop this JS BS on us? That's fine. I'm giving you my opinion but would bet money on how this turns out if the letter isn't pulled in 8.

You are sad because you are completely ok with UALPA stealing priority of the JS.

Saving jobs..... You are being furloughed right now because the DUSTY OLD MEN that run your union pushed through aged 65. Go talk to them... with out an ultimatum you'll get as far as the UAX carriers did.... NO WHERE.

I don't care what happens in 8 days. All i know is that on 8/1/08 ual pilots won't be riding in the jump seat unless your union can provide FACTS that its either to costly or the manpower isn't there to fix the problem.

By the way sorry to all UAL furloughs goodluck.

 

[bmpilot2003]

D-Bo,

Quick question, if UALPA didn't drive this last software change in May that gave TSA/GoJet priority over other UAX on mainline, and mainline priority on TSA/GoJet....who did?

He doesn't know because he doesn't have any FACTS.

 

[imacdog]

Gee Rez, the UAL pilots are not honoring their portion of their reciprocal jumpseat agreement - it is their company's software, and they are the beneficiaries of the problem. What else are we supposed to say to get it into your thick ALPA cheerleading skull? If you don't think there is a problem because one pilot group is taking advantage of another then it's probably time to hang up the headset because you are completely devoid of integrity and a sense of responsibility to honor agreements.

I'll ask it again even though none of you ego-driven UAL pilots will answer - if the situation were reversed do you think the UAL pilots would allow this software problem to go uncorrected? Honest answers only please.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Here's what I'm reading into this:

"Yes, we know it's wrong and against our jumpseat agreements, And, yes, we're the ones that screwed it up in the first place (there wasn't a problem before) but, we're not going to fix it cause you guys are little piss ant, whiny, barbie jet wannabes. What are you gonna do about it??"

"Oh, and I almost forgot, this is not just because we are much better and more entitled pilots than you (we are). We don't have the money or bargaining power to fix it, notwithstanding the fact that twice in the last couple of months, we've managed scrape up enough to screw with you little pudknockers a little more by altering the very software we say we don't have the resources to alter."

"How dare you stand up to me, I'm the big kid here. If you don't back down, I'm going to tell my mommy and tell my friends to hate you too."

"By the way, we have all got to stick together"

 

[The Drizzle]

Here's what I'm reading into this:

"Yes, we know it's wrong and against our jumpseat agreements, And, yes, we're the ones that screwed it up in the first place (there wasn't a problem before) but, we're not going to fix it cause you guys are little piss ant, whiny, barbie jet wannabes. What are you gonna do about it??"

"Oh, and I almost forgot, this is not just because we are much better and more entitled pilots than you (we are). We don't have the money or bargaining power to fix it, notwithstanding the fact that twice in the last couple of months, we've managed scrape up enough to screw with you little pudknockers a little more by altering the very software we say we don't have the resources to alter."

"How dare you stand up to me, I'm the big kid here. If you don't back down, I'm going to tell my mommy and tell my friends to hate you too."

"By the way, we have all got to stick together"

That about sums it up.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

To answer your question, no matter how condescending or rhetorical it may have been, the aircraft listed are ones that I have worked in one aspect or another...either dispatching or back in my ramp-rat days.

Before you opt for the default ramper bashing response, don't take my time as a ramp-rat as any indication of my education level and cognitive abilities...I rock a 134 IQ (and I only mention this because a lot of folks seem to mistake dispatchers for idiots). I just liked the working outside for a change and it lead me to a love of this stupid industry.

As I've stated before, I never had any real desire to be an airline pilot. I can fly...I just don't really wish to make a career of it. Seventy-five percent of the pilots I know are bitter and/or hate their job...and that's just something I'm not into. Not a personal knock on anyone here; I'm just a firm believer that, once you start to hate it, it's time to move on to something else. Besides, I've always been a behind-the-scenes kinda guy...previous career was sound engineering and radio.

I thoroughly enjoy the mental gymnastics that some days require of this profession...juggling multiple traffic management initiatives, keeping an eye out for possible issues and hazards all over the U.S., and the general parsing of a constant stream of information. It is the one of the most thankless gigs in the industry and, most of the time, I prefer it that way (let’s face it, the guy emptying the crapper has THE most thankless gig).

All of that said, I have nothing but respect for the abilities and knowledge required of the pilot profession. I simply ask that you reconsider your condescending attitude and complete lack of respect towards my chosen profession.

Geez Walter, simmer down. I was just asking because with my sub-134 pilot IQ, it says AC Flown, so I was just wondering. I have known pilots to medical out and move on to other things. I have also been a ramper so I know all about it.

When you say you "can fly," does that mean you have controlled an aircraft in flight, you have a PPL, or you think you could if you wanted, because of your rockin 134 IQ?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

So again... I ask... why is U-ALPA obligated to fix the problems of UAX pilots?

Simple really, if you wanna ride in one of our 4000+ jumpseats, fix it BACK to the agreed upon J/S agreements, otherwise enjoy your 1500 and shrinking number of flights. Face it you need us worse than we need you. Piss on me? No F U!
PBR

 

[D-Bo]

He doesn't know because he doesn't have any FACTS.

OK. If you have the facts concerning this situation, post all of them here.

 

[auspac]

Looks like we may have some progress. Back to the paper method. Hopefully war is averted.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Geez Walter, simmer down. I was just asking because with my sub-134 pilot IQ, it says AC Flown, so I was just wondering. I have known pilots to medical out and move on to other things. I have also been a ramper so I know all about it.

When you say you "can fly," does that mean you have controlled an aircraft in flight, you have a PPL, or you think you could if you wanted, because of your rockin 134 IQ?

I'm just used to the typical, smart-alecky "pilot looking down on the dispatchers/pilot thinking that dispatchers are all pilot wannabes" remarks...so, yeah, I go on the defensive. I'm damn proud of our profession and it irks the hell outta me that there are people that make it out to sound that we are nothing more than a bunch of mouse-clickers. There are mouse-clickers amongst us...however, most of us believe in and practice a combination of professionalism, humility, and balance of workload that requires alot more skill and knowledge than we are ever given credit for.

As for your question...I readily admit, I probably shouldn't have worded it as "I can fly". I kinda rushed through that response. I started my PPL a while back...then had to spend that money on other, more important things. I'll have to finish that sucker eventually...just less than interested at the moment. In the end, I know the basics...but the point I was making was, I was making was that I have spent at least a small amount of time at the controls of an aircraft and that I'm not completely stupid as to the general abilities and brainpower required to operate an aircraft. My apologies for making it sound otherwise...there was no intention of sounding as though I am any kind of experienced pilot.

And yes, being on the borderline of genius does rock. Of course, certain activities I took part in while in college likely lowered that number to the sub-100 level. At least I had a good time, though.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Gee Rez, the UAL pilots are not honoring their portion of their reciprocal jumpseat agreement -

Are the UAL pilots actively violating the j/s agreement? Where does UAX and UAL management come into all of this..

So you are think UAL pilots are taking full advantage of this?

When I jumpseat I always talk to the fellow jumpseaters, find out who needs the jumpseat more. Who can take another flight etc...

Are you saying there are UAL pilots that are snubbing UAX pilots at the gate and then taking the UAX pilots own metal jumpseat? If so, are they doing that as a matter of policy or acting as an individual?

it is their company's software,

But not their software. Big difference. Do you expect U-ALPA to spend their time and money on this?

If so? Why? And why is U-ALPA's time and money better than UAX-ALPA's time and money.

and they are the beneficiaries of the problem.

Not by their efforts...only by happenstance. And the benefits are only obtained by individual scheming and poor PIC authority.

What else are we supposed to say to get it into your thick ALPA cheerleading skull?

What does ALPA have to do with this? And if you continue to use this type of chatter it just seems to diminish any good will? Or do you think you can insult people and still expect them to be altruistic?

If you don't think there is a problem because one pilot group is taking advantage of another then it's probably time to hang up the headset because you are completely devoid of integrity and a sense of responsibility to honor agreements.

There you go again with that type of diplomacy. Why are UAL pilots taking advantage of other pilots because United's software...

If so... then why not a letter appealing to UAL pilots professional and integrity to do whats right at the gate... instead... to gain attention, you threaten.

Are you saying the ultimatum letter was correct, of integrity and righteous?

I'll ask it again even though none of you ego-driven UAL pilots will answer - if the situation were reversed do you think the UAL pilots would allow this software problem to go uncorrected? Honest answers only please.

No they sure would not. But the UAL pilots have been dealing with management for 70 years. I'd like to think they would have not used such freshmen tactics as your Letter... however, even the UAL pilots can falter....

 

[Erlanger]

Word is that the Express carriers have won the battle. Details to come soon.

 

[BoilerUP]

Word is that the Express carriers have won the battle.

There was no battle.

There was no war.

There was politicking, gamesmanship, and even a little brinksmanship...but ultimately what we all hope happened is cooler heads prevailed and both parties decided to work together to fix the problem.